Dyson make max 1400w, most considerably less
His argument is that the EU rules aren't strict enough
Echoing exactly the car emissions/ efficiency tests we all knew to be a lie, in that real world vs lab test lower rated ones draw more power than his bagless one that doesn't loose efficiency.
He took them to ecj and lost
Hes quite right the EU testing regimes are a joke for appliances or cars
But our governments non response to the car emissions scandal shows that our own government are even worse! If there's one person that couldn't care less what efficiency sticker is on a hoover is Cameron (well actually it's gotta be Bojo)
I am not going to get into a pointless argument regarding detailed figures. You fail to understand that although the total eu exports to the uk might be a small % of their total exports. The eu is not a supranational and as a result individual member countries will be coupled to a more / less degree than others in relation to trade exports. I doubt for a moment that said countries will be happy to act as martyrs by not doing business with the uk.You have shown how much they changed from last months[ or the same month the year before] not what the % was as a % of our or their total export trade.
I am still curious regarding your 4% figure, so if you could clarify what it relates too I'd be most grateful.
I doubt for a moment that said countries will be happy to act as martyrs by not doing business with the uk.
and as trade is done by companies within those countries they may simply decide to trade with partners who are cheaper, in the EU and are bound by the same rules and standards as it will be easier
Isn't that a slight simplification. Are you confident that said companies are in a position to suddenly strike up new trade agreements with other partners. That does make the assumption that there is whole raft of people banging on their doors currently asking to purchase their products.and as trade is done by companies within those countries they may simply decide to trade with partners who are cheaper, in the EU
That does make the assumption that there is whole raft of people banging on their doors currently asking to purchase their products.
In most cases there will be, there are very few monopolies left. The most competitive will win, investment will go to those places and people will reconsider the cost of doing business with the UK.
And as one of the big bonus points of leaving is not having to follow all those silly little EU rules (unless selling into the EU) would UK products be acceptable? Of course the real solution is to stick your fingers in your ears say it will be fine and we will just trade with Brazil instead.
The figures quoted are fairly accurate from what I have seen. From a UK perspective we sell a lot and buy a lot, from an EU perspective it's tiny.
Trade deals are an irrelevance to the Companies WHO are Trading.
Currently I am sorting out how a Danish Companies trades globally, and they but from whoever can supply the product at the right Price and quality and WHO has the capacity to do so.
Irrelevant as to where they are in the World.
They currently deal with the UK as some UK Companies are the best out there and can supply what they need.
There is no issue if they are in or out of the EU. the Companies that trade will simply Work out how to keep Trading.
As for all the bolx about us needing them or them needing us, we and they dont need either. It is Companies that trade, and that wont change.
The EU can not impose restrictive import Tariffs, so nothing will significantly change, what will improve for the UK will be that EU products will become more expensive as VAT will be chargable, so I expect more UK Companies to buy either from the UK or other parts of the World
JMaby it might just be the case that you mis remembered what he said what with your claim about his machines and his position being false. WOuld you like to retarct what iwth all of it being completely wrong?
As for the long withering post at me[ and labour who you seem obsessed with] it was just some of that personal stuff you never do.
I realise THM can do as he please but he please do his thing in a non partisan and political way .......obviously.
Of course we would trade with the EU bu they could also put tarrifs on our imports
Its insane to think that the absence of free trade deal will have no impact on trade and I am sure THM will be along soon to explain , in his lovely style, just how silly that is 😉
Dont blame you as you cannot even produce the correct ones nor interpret correctly the ones you do give it would seem wise to stop now.I am not going to get into a pointless argument regarding detailed figures.
The EU can not impose restrictive import Tariffs
So I can buy whatever I like form China directly and free from duty - just as i can within the EU ?
I suspect the truth of that statement hangs on exactly what you mean by "restrictive import tariffs".
There is no issue if they are in or out of the EU. the Companies that trade will simply Work out how to keep Trading.
I think they will ook at ease of trade, common standards and cost. A company outside the EU wont fare quite as well on those. Still you may be right and savvy business types may well pay more for trade that is harder.
No one is claiming trade stops if we leave the EU but FFS stop pretending it wont be harder. WTF do you , and its amazing i have become some sort of champion/explainer of free trade to the fantastically right wing, thing free trade does if not improve trade?. These debates really do become silly - outside the EU trade , with the EU, is harmed.
The EU could set tarriffs, but they would be about 2-5% maximum if at all.
so this wouldnt change a huge amount the amount of trade overall.
Its not hard to trade with Companies outside the EU now, despite all the talk of free trade, its still a pain dealing with Companies in the EU.
There are still different accounting rules to be adhered to, hence this Company deal with Companies all over the World and it is no harder to trade with a brazilian Company over a Spanish Company.
We define the quality, and we then agree the deal base on Price to the factory, capacity and committment. Its really not difficult dealing with Companies around the World, so Trading with the EU when in or out of it wont be that much different.
The reasons we shuold stay or leave the EU are not Down to the Financial benefits, the trade benefits, but the political reasons.
I am totally pro Europe, but I have a problem with allowing Visa free travel for Turks if they dont reform on the key points of terrorism and free speach.
And I dont want the European Countries practically raping Greeece as part of the bailout.
That's rich coming from someone who quoted a figure of 4% and then failed to answer my question regarding what it related too. I just quoted simple trade figures for march 2016 showing what we imported vs what we exported to the eu. it's not rocket science. Would you like me to explain what import and export mean?Dont blame you as you cannot even produce the correct ones nor interpret correctly the ones you do give it would seem wise to stop now.
I am totally pro Europe, but I have a problem with allowing Visa free travel for Turks if they dont reform on the key points of terrorism and free speach.
In that respect, you and the EU agree. Result!
Yes, I am watching this closely, I really hope they hold their principles
@pando the EU has a long history of not enforcing rules (just look at Greece's financial status), Turks will be allowed VISA free travel and the rules/conditions will be fudged as quite simply Germany needs their co-opration on the migrant deal. Turkey has been given €9bn of EU money too as part of the deal
I really hope they hold their principles
Remember the EU resisted sanctions against Russia post Crimea and Malaysian airlines incident as they do lots of business there. Politicians have no principals
@Junky Dyson challenged the proposed rules in the High Coiurt two years ago as they where negative for his business, he made higher powered vacuums back then and had products affected. I have a new "efficient" Bosch which is compliant and its useless, big mistake not the buy a powerful machine before the rules changed. My wife is asthmatic and hates these new rules / vacuums.
And then went on to say that high power doesn't mean high suction. Basically the watts are irrelevant. Read the article linked it's really clear his objections were about testing etc.
His comments follow the implementation of a new European law banning vacuum cleaners that are rated over 1,600 watts from being sold, as part of energy efficiency plans set out by the European Commission – and at the same time as his state-of-the-art robotic vacuum cleaner has been revealed to the public.But it is not the implementation of the new regulation that had irked Dyson, as none of his products are rated higher than 1,400 watts, it is that for him, the regulation does not go far enough.
Speaking to the Telegraph, Dyson said that when the Energy related Products legislation was first being outlined, his company had campaigned for the product limits to be capped at 700 watts.
Polish remittances, vacuum (or not) cleaners.....wood, trees....
@flanagaj and other pro-exiters;
I can fully understand why uncontrolled immigration can be a problem (though I drop the blame more on governments failing to plan), so have some sympathies with you there, but think that export v import is moot: we need them just as much as they need us.
But anyway, my question was:
what of the ECHR?
ECHR - separate issue altogether and not (directly) affected by Brexit either way. Its another Brexit bogeyman that is misused to create further xenophobia...
@kimbers that link makes exactly the point I am making that vested interests in other EU countires (especially Germany) massively skew legislation. Dyson was complaining about a number of elements including the power ratings and testing. As Insaid we have one of the new vaccumms and its rubbish in comparison to the mire powerful one it replaced, suction is inferior and it takes longer to hoover the same bit of carpet so its easier to imagine is less energy efficient
As I posted before VW have agreed a deal with US on compensation (inc vehcile repurchase) and repair whereas in Europe .... didly squat (I wish I knew the German for SFA)
I wonder when we'll see broader coverage of the Greek debt negotiations, there have been rioting in the streets there for a week with precious little coverage. IMF is demanding debt releif, ie Germany,mGrance and eurozone need to publically acknowledge they are not getting a big chunk of their tax payers money back
Broader coverage? Currently in most broadsheets and news.
Greece is a problem but not a systemic one - other than illustrating the flaws of the € - we all know that the debt dynamics and the proposed solutions wont work, that's blindingly obvious.
But that is a € issue not the core of what we are debating
[Even with Brexit we would still be on the hook for a bailout through our participation in other parts of the support.]
@cody we have discussed the ECHR at length, I have no problem with a HRC however the final arbiter should be UK courts an also the EU insists we treat any EU citizen as though they where a UK citizen, somwe cannot easily deport criminals
It was a Conservative Party manifesto commitment to withdraw from the ECHR and replace it with a British version. They have kicked that into the long grass as they are well aware that the EU will block any attempt to do so, see historical questions/answers given in the EU Parliament - any attempt to withdraw will be "referred" . Cameron is well aware how damaging to the IN campaign such a "blocking" would do so he's pushed it back beyond the Referendum.
International courts are largely a joke imo, none of the US, Russia or China are bound by the International Court so whats the point ?
But that is a € issue not the core of what we are debating
😯
The € is at the centre of the EU, every new member must commit to joining. The € is a perfect example of EU incompetence. If you can't get your finances right (or indeed your border control) you are not fit to govern anything
Jambas - why ignore the fact that we are not part of the €, that this status was confirmed and highlighted in the recent agreement (I have posted this three times already for the forgetful) and that this is a separate issue?
We are not part of the €, we therefore will not be part of greater monetary and fiscal union, so this is juts more bogeyman talk.
I know it doesn't suit the narrative but lets focus on the substantive issues that directly affect the UK and that are core to the debate - out of interest, when you are lobbying do you also use the £350m figure that Bojo is still lying about?
From Freshfields
Current state of playHuman rights in the UK are currently protected by three main regimes, which work in parallel:
•the common law;
•the Human Rights Act (HRA), which incorporates the protections provided by the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR); and
•the human rights protections derived from EU law, which are mainly reflected in the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights (CFR).These regimes give businesses the power to challenge regulatory action on either procedural grounds, eg an inadequate consultation or an unfair trial, or due to substantive violations, eg expropriation of property.
What should I be thinking about now?
[b]The common law, the HRA and the ECHR will be unaffected by any Brexit. This is due to the domestic basis of the common law, the HRA being a domestic statute and the ECHR being agreed by the 47-nation Council of Europe (not the EU).
[/b]However, unless an agreement is negotiated to the contrary, a Brexit is likely to mean that the EU-based human rights protections, including the CFR, would cease to apply in the UK.
The HRA and the application of the ECHR in the UK may well be impacted by a ([b]separate[/b]) move to a British ‘bill of rights’. The scope and timetable of this development are unclear.
And I think there lies the fundamental problem with being in the union. I get the impression that other member states feel that the UK is just a thorn in the side of the union. Partially in, but not fully committed. As a result we will never really be influential in shaping the direction the eu goes in.We are not part of the €, we therefore will not be part of greater monetary and fiscal union, so this is juts more bogeyman talk.
i've just been reading about Greenland - the only other country to withdraw from the Eu - it took them 3 years to negotiate the free trade agreement that they have and it was essentially about fish !
They also have to follow all the Eu leg if they want to trade, but have no say, so I'm not entirely sure what benefit we will get out of withdrawing, as far as I can see:
We could control our borders - err, nope free movement is part of the the Eu leg
We get rid of the meddlesome Eu legislation - err nope again
We can get lovely free trade agreements life TTIP with other countries -true but **** I hope not
Our own politicians can make great legislation for us - Hmm, Nigel, David, etc, YAY !!!
jambalaya - Member
@Junky Dyson challenged the proposed rules in the High Coiurt two years ago as they where negative for his business, he made higher powered vacuums back then and had products affected.
It might help if you understood the situation you're trying to use to support your opinion.
Dyson have NEVER produced a vacuum cleaner rated above 1600 watts, they campaigned for a vastly lower figure of 700 watts.
They went to court over the test used to measure the wattage, complaining that bagged cleaners draw more current when full but are tested empty.
The court did not uphold their request because Dyson could not provide a better test.
Junkyard - lazarusOver 50 % of our exports are to them and only 4 % of theirs are to us
What is your point caller as it seems somewhat difficult to argue "they need us more than we need them"
As an example, we are Germany's biggest export market for cars.
To try and suggest that our purchasing is of little significance by lumping the economies of the individual members together is quite silly.
What would the ex-workers of Stuttgart and Munich do, look for work in Greece or Spain?
The only way your point stands is if the other members would prop up Germany's short fall, but then I doubt Estonia, Lithuania et al would want to answer that call. 😆
To try and suggest that our purchasing is of little significance by lumping the economies of the individual members together is quite silly.
We trade with the EU of course, when discussing not trading with the EU it makes sense to discuss the entire EU rather than Stuggart and Munich based car makers as you contend 😯 Really this is what we should focus on how leaving affects german car makers 😯
You also failed to grasp what I was saying. I stated that they would like to keep our trade, everyone likes trade, BUT they could afford[ the entire EU} to lose all our trade, though it would hurt, where as we would collapse without being able to export there as its 50% of our market.
Given this we do not have, as jamby contends, have the strongest negotiating hand. There is no way to argue that the more reliant one who wants access to the others market has the strongest hand unless you wish to use jambylogics.
Mind you jamby getting his own argument wrong with Dyson was funnier
We trade with the EU
Not really, we trade with countries that are members of the EU, which was kind of my point, hence my specific example.
BUT they could afford [the entire EU} to lose all our trade
As I've pointed out, we don't trade with "the EU" so much as we trade with individual countries/businesses.
It is nonsensical to suggest that "the entire EU" could afford to lose all our trade, when it is not "the entire EU" that would have to stomach the loss of it.
But we're agreed, trade would go on, and it is not a subject that would sway me either way.
If I'm swayed from voting leave, it will be because I'm not suffering from a *phobia of immigrants, which increasingly seems to be Leave's biggest attraction. 🙁
*currently, though Turkey can **** right off.
Blimey the Brexit Bsers are getting very sweaty over the BoE latest Quarterly Inflation report. How very dare the Governor state the bleeding obvious
"Resign"
"Sack Him"
"Bloody Foreigner! That's what you get with no control over your borders."
😉
Lord Lamont, the former UK chancellor, said: “The governor should be careful that he doesn’t cause a crisis [like I did]. If his unwise words become self-fulfilling {I just denied everything], the responsibility will be the governor’s and the governor’s alone [it wasn't my fault]. A prudent governor would simply have said that ‘we are prepared for all eventualities’"
He could simply stand outside his office making false statements to the cameras while the rest of us see what's going on. Why bring out an outraged Norm to make such a silly comment - the irony is wonderful.
We trade with the EU. When we leave we will either have a trade deal with the EU or not have a trade deal with the EU. We cannot do a trade deal with Germany[ or any other EU country] we can only do a trade deal with the EU
JY and Lifer - so one of Britains highest profile business successes launches a legal action against proposed EU legislation and after losing says that's convinced him to be a Brexiter and it doesn't make my point ? Also the 1600kw figure is not that relevant as the real figure is 900 (I think) which is where the limit is going in 2017. Dyson couldn't launch an action against the limit itself but he could against the test/process.
JY yes indeed, EU deal or nothing but we all know who pulls the strings in the EU. If we dont get a deal there's import duties both ways and we are quids in (billions ?) as we have a trade deficit, yes some goods might be a bit more expensive but who cares if bike24.de is less competitive thereafter than wiggle or CRC ?
@tmh the euro is absolutely relevant for the reasons I've mentioned, the perfect example of total EU mismanagement. We are impacted as when it goes pear shaped we will be told (not asked) to contribute to the European Stability Fund and as our EU budget contribution is calculated on a relative basis weaker/collapsing eurozone members mean our contribution will go up.
Carney is very much out of order, don't you love the word [b]may[/b]. I could stroll up to a 200 yard par 3 and I [b]may[/b] hit a hole in one. What Carney won't say is Greece is bust and can't pay - there is no [b]may[/b] about that 😥
Funny how the biased (no really) BBC forgot to mention the context of Carney's comments ie the publication of the Inflation Report in which the BoE has to assess to outlook for inflation, the economy and the key risks to their forecasts. How incompetent would they be if Brexit WAS NOT mentioned.
You and I are both aware of decisions being delayed simply in advance of the referendum. Imagine the scenario if madness prevails? It is utterly proper from Carney do say what he said.
Not only that but he is stating the bleeding obvious.
The €?? This referendum is (or should be) about our relationship with the EU. Given that this does not include membership of the € we should focus on those issues that are relevant to the debate.
"May"? Again, note the context - its a regular (interesting for some of us) publication. Language again wholly appropriate.
Brexiters tantrums indicate how raw the nerves are when touched.
it doesn't make my point ?
If you want to spin that as you being correct then expect some hashtagging for your approach. I am genuinely surprised that you have the gall to do that and you are not embarrassed by it. you got all the facts wrong.
. If we dont get a deal there's import duties both ways and we are quids in (billions ?) as we have a trade deficit
well yes half our trade just got hampered so of course we will be awash with money 😕 It what all the financial experts are predicting.
but who cares if bike24.de is less competitive thereafter than wiggle or CRC ?
Pretty sure that was what the Bank OF england entire monetray committe meant with the warning
you are so detached from the facts you make AS economics views of union break up look positively well grounded and factual
One last time
The debate is clear If we leave we will initially be worse off but over time we will recover. I see no way of arguing on either of those points and anyone who does not accept them is motivated entirely by their political position on the EU.
Its fine to want to leave and pay a price for you value freedom or fear immigration more but FFS dont pretend we will be financially unaffected, or even more crazily better off, if we leave. Its the stuff of [ crack] pipe dreams. Everyone who says this Brexiter and no one neutral is saying anything remotely like this.
[b]Its so obvious and clear cut that THM and i agree on a political and economic point. [/b]
Sancho - Member
I am totally pro Europe, but I have a problem with allowing Visa free travel for Turks if they dont reform on the key points of terrorism and free speach.
Turkey? Try the entire Central Asia coz they are related.
You know those people west of China? Yes, they are ethnically linked to the Turks.
If you let Turkey in you might as well welcome the entire Central Asia so where do you stop? Mongolia?
Resign for this (be serious Jacob):
[b]Risks to the outlook
[/b]
Now turning to the elephant in the room.The MPC judges that the most significant risks to its forecast concern the referendum. [REALLY?]
With macroeconomic and financial indicators likely to be less informative than usual in light of the referendum, the Committee is currently reacting more cautiously to data releases than would normally be the case. There is a risk that we could be over- or under-estimating underlying momentum in the economy in the event of a vote to remain in the EU.
More profoundly, a vote to leave the EU could [NOTE LANGUAGE] have material economic effects – on the exchange rate, on demand and on the economy’s supply potential – that could affect the appropriate setting of monetary policy. [THEIR JOB]
The recent behaviour [FACTS] of the foreign exchange market suggests that, were the UK to vote to leave the EU, sterling’s exchange rate would fall further, perhaps sharply. This would likely be consistent with changes to some of the real fundamentals that drive sterling including the terms of trade, productivity, and risk premia.[WEY HEY, SOME BASIC THEORY] In isolation, a further fall in sterling would boost inflation over the policy horizon.
Aggregate demand would also likely fall, relative to our forecast,[CONTEXT] in the face of tighter financial conditions, lower asset prices, and greater uncertainty about the UK’s trading relationships. Households could defer consumption, and firms could delay investment. Global financial conditions could also tighten, generating potential negative spillovers to foreign activity that, in turn, could dampen demand for UK exports. All else equal, lower aggregate demand would tend to reduce inflation over the policy horizon.[WHAT HE GETS PAID TO FOCUS ON]
However, over time, there may also be negative effects on aggregate supply, including slower capital accumulation and the need to reallocate resources across the economy in response to changing trading and investment patterns. On their own, such supply effects would tend to boost inflation over the policy horizon.
The combination of these influences on demand, supply and the exchange rate could lead to a materially lower path for growth and a notably higher path for inflation than in the central projections set out in the May Inflation Report. [FEEL FREE TO DEBATE BREXITERS]
In such circumstances, the MPC would face a challenging trade-off between stabilising inflation on the one hand, and stabilising output and employment on the other. The implications for monetary policy would not be automatic; its direction would depend on the relative magnitudes of the demand, supply and exchange-rate effects.
Whatever outlook materialises, the MPC will determine the course for monetary policy that delivers the inflation target in a sustainable and timely manner, which generally means returning inflation to target within two to three years and keeping it there.
The Horse's Mouth!!
jambalaya - Member - Block User
JY and Lifer - so one of Britains highest profile business successes launches a legal action against proposed EU legislation and after losing says that's convinced him to be a Brexiter and it doesn't make my point ? Also the 1600kw figure is not that relevant as the real figure is 900 (I think) which is where the limit is going in 2017. Dyson couldn't launch an action against the limit itself but he could against the test/process.
DYSON ACTIVELY CALLED FOR A LOWER LIMIT OF 700w. F. F. S.
He had no problem with the limit.
Junkyard - lazarusWe trade with the EU.
sbob - MemberNot really, we trade with countries that are members of the EU, which was kind of my point, hence my specific example.
Junkyard - lazarusWe trade with the EU.
Oh **** it, I'll just vote leave.
Is the whole "EU"/"countries that are members of the EU" not a bit of a distinction without much of a difference?
Meanwhile in the beautiful south west, the people that made their minds up last year still have their minds made up, and undecided/swing voters are still being swung this way and that by completely spurious and irrelevant nonsense from both sides. But I particularly enjoyed the german battlebus/£45k saving and protected pasty story:
[url= http://http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Pasties-pennies-power-Boris-battlebus-message/story-29261693-detail/story.html ]Local paper coverage -crap website and crap popups warning. [/url]
[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ben-bradshaw/boris-johnson-day-of-blunders_b_9909588.html ]Lone south west 'remain' MP comments on crap and increasingly doomed leadership bid and 'day of blunders'.[/url]
Is there still time for Boris to change his mind and dig out the other article he denies he wrote at the 11th hour pinning his colours to the mast for the "remain" campaign? This is starting to look like a bigger political gamble for him than it did a couple of months ago....
f you let Turkey in you might as well welcome the entire Central Asia so where do you stop? Mongolia?
I think you're getting just a little carried away, may I suggest a cup of chamomile tea & a lie down?
Oh **** it, I'll just vote leave.
Thats fine[ and was never in any doubt was it] but dont make the mistake of thinking your "point " was correct because it was not. We either have a trade agreement with the EU or we don not we cannot have a trade agreement with GErmany or even more specifically German car manufacturers.