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Married does not mean you require no support. Just because one half of the partnership is earning it does not necessarily follow that they provide enough tax revenue for there not to be a cost to the system for the second person. Judging peoples worth by their salary is a poor technique, as is only allowing the rich to have spouses from outside the UK (because they can afford to pay for it).
Anyone who has lived on a visa with the risk of being deported in the event of a job loss knows that living with that level of insecurity is pretty crap. The country and companies within cannot attract or retain top talent with those restrictions. Even in the USA the way that companies retain top people is to buy them green cards.
@igm yup there are details to be agreed. As an aside the UK has one of the mosf generous refimes to apply for citizenship and we are very flexible about multiple passports / nationalities unlike other countries.
We have to be generous about multiple passports - the UK is made up of immigrants. Always has been.
If you are in the uk with a job or retired here or otherwise need no support, eg married the you can stay and apply for PR / citizenship or a long term visa (to be introdiced). That's what's done elsewhere. Thats my view.
Seems reasonable. The automatic after five years residency that the EU has proposed also seems reasonable. However I don't think taking away someone's freedom (passport) for six months when applying for a UK passport as posted above is reasonable.
As an aside the UK has one of the mosf generous refimes to apply for citizenship and we are very flexible about multiple passports / nationalities unlike other countries.
I agree with and benefit from the second part, but strongly disagree with the first part - the conditions people have to meet and the bureaucratic obstacles are daunting unless you are are rich enough to meet the conditions and pay an expensive lawyer to do the paperwork for you.
@corn - you have to bear in mind that in Jamba's world a person can be judged entirely in financial terms, and if you are poor you can f@&£ right off. That leads to a certain view of freedom of movement.
EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK
Completely wrong. We had a perfectly good system that Brexit tore up. The problem is 100% of the UK making
It looks like UK has the highest population density amongst all European nations according to [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_population_of_European_countries ]Wiki.[/url] (those few before UK in the list are peanuts with small population)
At the moment UK has 267 people/square KM but if you increase that to 400 people/square KM, you will have approximately 97 million people ... give and take some departing etc ...
Bear in mind with good health care etc the living is living longer.
The question is how many million people do you want?
Because at some point in time you will be the one that is old and frail that cannot even afford to live in your own home. Just like the young people now they will wish you depart quickly to free up space ... 😯
DrJ - Member
EU takes game playing wirh the lives of EU citizens in the UK
Completely wrong. We had a perfectly good system that Brexit tore up. The problem is 100% of the UK making
Define perfect.
Perfect for who?
Me, amongst others.
Define perfect.Perfect for who?
48% of the electorate I believe 😆
Perfect for the UK.
If we don't have immigration then the old are really in trouble.
Who do you think staffs the services the old rely on?
Perfect for the UK.If we don't have immigration then the old are really in trouble.
Who do you think staffs the services the old rely on?
Yeah, you had the chance to make that opinion known before the referendum as well.
Democracy, eh?
48% of the electorate I believe
Hard to say, only 36% voted Leave a d not all of those wanted to end fom so a small minority wanted to kill off immigration and they are getting that regardless of the consequences.
Hard to say, only 36% voted Leave a d not all of those wanted to end fom so a small minority wanted to kill off immigration and they are getting that regardless of the consequences.
Of course, the corollary to that is that less than 35% voted to stay...
And none of those answered a question directly about immigration so point made there.
Lowest turnout since '69 supposedly.
Pest ou Cholera
First time ever people had to be paid to man polling stations, PS and UMP normally volunteer. Indication of lack of people on the ground for both candidates.
@Edukator you have kids and 5 year residency so a French passport is a formaility ?
Or the result being a forgone conclusion?
Anyway, Macron 65% of the vote.
Back from counting two envelopes:
Macron 165
Le Pen 18
Blanc/nuls 17
I'm not sure what the question is Jamba. What France is proposing along with other countries, or the current situation in France. The EU suggestion is five years. [url= https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2213 ]In France these are the criteria at present.[/url]
Putin is losing his touch. Still 2/3 ain't bad.
Yeah, it wasn't even close vote. But that's the way it is, anti-eu and populism is so last season.
When they came they had the right to stay forever, imo that should change.
So "send them home" ?
So the Dutch saw sense, now the French, maybe the Germans will lurch to the right, 35% lepen is still worrying
But it seems like it's just Britain who's decided to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Oh well tenuous excuse for a bit of Goldfrapp
At the moment UK has 267 people/square KM
If you think it is "too crowded" here, you do have the option to **** off.
We wouldn't miss you.
Make room for someone with a more generous disposition towards our friends, family and neighbours.
Better still how about a song that celebrates France's diversity and has a little dig at Jean-Marie Le Pen at 2:48.
Well it looks like sense still exists in some countries. Good majority too, none of that 52/48 nonsense.
You stay classy Leave.EU
[img] 
[/img]
I like this response:
[img] 
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I see the reminders are all very quickly up in arms to grab something to celebrate. 😯
Edukator - Reformed Troll
Better still how about a song that celebrates France's diversity and has a little dig at Jean-Marie Le Pen at 2:48.
Is that singer the Madonna (material girl) of France? Zexy time I like ... 😆
France has elected their youngest President. 😯
sounds the Leave's plans are falling apart, guess paymaster Putin won't be too happy.
Can we have a Centrist government now please?
mrmo - Member
sounds the Leave's plans are falling apart, guess paymaster Putin won't be too happy.
😆 What plan? It's France. Do they have one?
Let see if their youngest President can think beyond his age. 😛
@Edukator it was just a responce to your statement that pre-Brexit was perfect for you. Post is fine too either you stay as you are as UK/EU make a sensible deal or you get a French passport. No ?
Next question is what will Macron / en-marche do for the Senate elections, who will stand ? UMP family officials seem optimistic they will do very well in a month and be able to "control" / "direct" Macron.
As for our favourite friend "austerity" Macron plans €60bn / £50bn worth and just 120,000 civil-service lay-offs
Great Speech. Best orator since De Villepin. En Marche - marchons !
I think you've missed something, Jamba. My passport is French.
Does it have to be the best or perfect? 😆Edukator - Reformed Troll
Great Speech. Best orator since De Villepin. En Marche - marchons !
Somehow me mate from Le Mans (lawyer) also always used the term like "best" in the world, absolutely "perfect", the "best" of the "best" ... is that a cultural thing? Even my HK friend who studied in Lyon claims to have the "best" education in the world in France. The best ... 😮
Viva France!I think you've missed something, Jamba. [b]My passport is French[/b].
Révolution!
Good to see the French join the Dutch in accepting with maturity their relative decline in the world and voting for someone with a positive vision for the future instead of indulging in the (false) comforts of nationalist populism...
Still time for England to follow their lead.
brooess - Member
Still time for England to follow their lead.
Are they taking the lead by accepting their fate? 😀
You do know that France can no longer change don't you? 😛 Even all my French friends have given up for any possibility of a change.
Meanwhile, the [i]actual[/i] threat to wages and employment rumbles on:
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39830113 ]Automation poses a high risk to 1.2m Scottish jobs, report says[/url]
[i]Nearly half of Scottish jobs could be carried out by machines in just over 10 years' time, a report has warned.
The Institute for Public Policy Research Scotland said 46% of jobs - about 1.2 million - were at "high risk" of automation in the period up to 2030.[/i]
Damn bots, coming here and taking our jobs when they don't even speak English
Even all my French friends have given up for any possibility of a change.
Confirmation bias much??
Mine is a small sample size so merely saying exactly what they have told me.mrlebowski - Member
Even all my French friends have given up for any possibility of a change.
Confirmation bias much??
You can interpret at will but their response remains theirs. 😆
Chewkw - if they weren't of a certain ilk they wouldn't stay friends with you for long. Just an impression based on what you post of course.
Back on more serious matters it does seem outside of the little England bubble Europe has become more popular since last June. Even Trump seems to be liking Europe more.
Makes you think doesn't it? Those that can anyway.
Nope, they are nothing like me but they too don't believe in politicians. They just survive. 😆igm - Member
Chewkw - if they weren't of a certain ilk they wouldn't stay friends with you for long. Just an impression based on what you post of course.
EU is getting popular for the negative news or the wrong stuff according to people in the far east.Back on more serious matters it does seem outside of the little England bubble Europe has become more popular since last June. Even Trump seems to be liking Europe more.
But they All praise UK for her courage to stand up to do something about their own future.
Can you?Makes you think doesn't it? Those that can anyway.
What is there to think about? It's a bit too late to think now. Who is willing to give up their way of thinking to embrace others? I certainly don't but do you? I mean you consider yours the correct way while I consider mine the correct one. Who should give way? See ... 😛
Can we have a Centrist government now please?
Its coming, but not this election. Then the process of clearing up the mess these brexi w*nkers have made will begin.
That will not happen for some time to come as we still to waiting for the end of EU bureaucratic system.El-bent - Member
Can we have a Centrist government now please?
Its coming, but not this election. Then the process of clearing up the mess these brexi w*nkers have made will begin.
Bear in mind, some of the EU nations cannot really be artificially prob up forever because at certain time the inevitable will happen.
At the moment we are at the beginning of the end for EU bureaucratic system. The big shock to the EU bureaucratic system has not even started yet but when that happens it will affect the entire world. Because the longer they maintain the system the harder the system will fall and the bigger hole they dig for everyone not only themselves(no, UK should not return to prolong the inevitable). It will be a total collapse history has never witnessed before ... sub-prime bubble that is nothing by comparison. 😯
That will not happen for some time to come as we still to waiting for the end of EU bureaucratic system.
Bear in mind, some of the EU nations cannot really be artificially prob up forever because at certain time the inevitable will happen.
The list of people who want to see the end of the EU
Vald "Such a nice bloke" Putin
Donald "Whatever Vald said" Trump
LePen - racist, fascist far right leader
You and Jamby
A collapse of the EU is not good for most people, it would improve Russia's interests and allow the US to go back to bullying nations over trade deals etc.
France has rejected closed doors and protectionism as they could see through the lies and spin. You can't turn the clock back.
mikewsmith - Member
A collapse of the EU is not good for most people, it would improve Russia's interests and allow the US to go back to bullying nations over trade deals etc.
A collapse in any governing system is certainly not good at all (assuming EU bureaucrats are governing with impunity - are they accountable for wrong decisions?). But this system (EU bureaucracy) cannot prevail because the signs of the inevitable are already clearly written on the wall for everyone to see. They are not actually turning the problems around or solving the problems but escalating them. (loans etc that cannot be repaid forever ... bigger bubble just like sub-prime but worst)
The case now is not for EU bureaucratic system to improve (they have enough time but nothing to show) but how to slowly dismantle them without causing mass panic and hysteria. One country at a time should be sufficient ... too many will cause mass hysteria.
Nobody is closing doors to trade, Not even North Korea if you (those that sanction them) want to trade with them. The notion of closed door is just a negative way to portrait the one(s) not in the EU bureaucratic club. A way to blame, to punish, to intimidate etc ... rather normal behaviour to establish superiority etc.France has rejected closed doors and protectionism as they could see through the lies and spin. You can't turn the clock back.
Closing door to trade is the dumbest idea one can spin to blame others. Nobody would be so dumb to incarcerate him/herself. However, Not playing by the rule set that put one at a disadvantage is certainly something to emulate. There are rules but rules can change, and if nobody gives way then fight (not necessary war) to the end after all we are mankind.
😛
I've missed posting on this thread. Has anyone yet been able to articulate why Brexit is a good thing yet?
Well I for one would like to stop bickering for a moment and congratulate chewkw on a remarkably lucid post containing actual coherent sentences.
Well done sir. Whatever the new medication is I suggest you keep taking it. 😆
zokes, take back control, £350m, bloody immigrants. Isnt that enough for you? If not, 17 million people say you're wrong.
Looking at the tweets from leave.eu, Farage and even Hopkins it's amazing how the alt-right so badly want the EU to collapse, its mind boggling how unpleasant they seem be.
At least chewk seems to have a rationale
(Although he seems to be hugely unaware that all governments are bureaucratic)
Looking at the tweets from leave.eu, Farage and even Hopkins it's amazing how the alt-right so badly want the EU to collapse, its mind boggling how unpleasant they seem be.
The EU can't be seen to succeed because that would suggest leaving was a stupid thing to do. Oh and where there is conflict there is money to be made.
What plan? It's France. Do they have one?
Dunno but at least they have a functioning democracy which is a step up from us.
Yes that is surprising because the ones on here, who share their views, are such charming, rational and caring individuals who are held in nothing but esteem by the forum.Farage and even Hopkins it's amazing how the alt-right so badly want the EU to collapse, its mind boggling how unpleasant they seem be.
@ Jambalaya, re MP, I think à lot of people are going to change sides, from both the left and right.
Lepen said she is planning big changes, new name, new ideas, but all the people from the FN interviewed last night had no clue what she was saying.
Lots of people, 2/3, voted Macron because there was no other choice. He needs to be good very quickly.
Has anyone yet been able to articulate why Brexit is a good thing yet?
No.
Has anyone yet been able to articulate why Brexit is a good thing yet?
Yes, whilst everyones busy arguing about how bad Brexit will be, the Tories can
- dismantle the NHS and welfare system
- erode workers rights
- increase surveillance
- offload more and more to the private sector, whose companies pay individual MP's for "consultancy" and donate to their party.
...meanwhile Theresa May will backtrack on all the promises she's made about "hard brexit" to UKIPpers in 2 years because the biggest losers will be the companies that are Tory donors.
We'll end up with "soft brexit" which achieves nothing other than costing lots of money, and then the Tories will hope everyone has forgotten about all this by the time there's another election.
No.
Thanks, thought not. As you were, gents...
Group of seemingly educated reasonably intelligent people overheard the other day talking about how they wish someone had warned them that there would be all these complications/problems with Brexit. 😕
I read that the likes of FN-supporting Arron Banks and Nigel Farrage have been moaning about Eurocentrist Macron's win in France last night.
Well. What is it you keep telling us "Remainers"? Ah yes...
You lost. Get over it.
Or as News Thump put it:
[url= http://newsthump.com/2017/05/08/35-for-le-pen-means-france-is-divided-insists-man-who-told-the-48-to-suck-it-up-and-get-over-it/ ]35% for Le Pen means France is divided, insists man who told the 48% to suck it up and get over it[/url] 😆
Silly goose 😆GrahamS - Member
Well done sir. Whatever the new medication is I suggest you keep taking it.
Nurse!
[quote=chewkw ]Nope, they are nothing like me but they too don't believe in politicians.
🙄
I think Chewkw is confused between politicians and bureaucrats.
Ms May whom he has told us to got down on one knee before (and therefore I think he approves of) is a politician.
Civil servants (of whom you will find far more in London than Brussels) are bureaucrats.
Most of those EU types you have heard speak are either directly elected politicians, or indirectly elected (elected/appointed by someone you elected, like the UK PM is).
I think there may be a few outside that whom one hears from - but not many.
He needs to decide if it's elected politicians or professional bureaucrats he doesn't like - or maybe he just dislikes legitimate governments?
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/calais-border-control-talks-immigration-theresa-may-emmanuel-macron-victory-french-president-a7724181.html ]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/calais-border-control-talks-immigration-theresa-may-emmanuel-macron-victory-french-president-a7724181.html[/url]
taking back control still working out.
Lots of people, 2/3, voted Macron because there was no other choice. He needs to be good very quickly.
Yes I agree with this. My wife couldn't vote for either, if she was really really pushed to make a choice I think it could well have been FN. IF and a big IF Le Pen can clean up FN / new party she will have a good chance next time. Some really quite negative things said about him on Newsnight including from a school friend. 4 million people took the trouble to go and vote "none of the above".
Interesting to see Junker telling Macron France has to reel in spending the day after his election win where the alternative would have been catastrophe for the EU, he really is a grade A F-wit
@Edukator, got it my mistake. I thought you where British by birth.
@mrmo perfectly. The French have a massive problem around Calais, they want more money from the UK (to lay for policing) and a commitment to take more "refugees". I am good with an end to Le Touquet frankly, the Ferries, Eurotunnel and Eurostar can check fhe passports and validity of visas of every passenger and provide API just like the airlines do. Any people travelling without the correct documengs are returned at fhe expense/liability if the carrier. Trust me the French don't want that and so will not do anything other than tinker with Le Touquet.
I've missed posting on this thread. Has anyone yet been able to articulate why Brexit is a good thing yet?
I'm waiting for one of the usual suspects to pop up & start wibbling on about German Imperialism!
Tis easy, let anyone who wants on ferries or through the tunnel and let the UK deal with people they don't want as they see fit so long as human rights are respected. No forced returns to France unless there is a court ruling from the European human rights court.
Sometimes they do overlap ...igm - Member
I think Chewkw is confused between politicians and bureaucrats.
She is a brilliant Prime Minister. Yes, please bow down to show respect.Ms May whom he has told us to got down on one knee before (and therefore I think he approves of) is a politician.
There are different levels of bureaucrats such as: entry level, intermediate level, excessive level and fiend level. UK are at the entry and intermediate level. EU members are at excessive level and the EU bureaucratic system is at fiend level. 😈Civil servants (of whom you will find far more in London than Brussels) are bureaucrats.
After 43 years they are no longer needed so we leave. No hard feeling we just have to part ways.
Most of those EU types you have heard speak are either directly elected politicians, or indirectly elected (elected/appointed by someone you elected, like the UK PM is).
Completely irrelevant so long as they are not EU bureaucrats.I think there may be a few outside that whom one hears from - but not many.
I just want to see the EU bureaucratic system dismantle and I don't give a flying horse who the individual nations decide to choose as their leaders. They can choose a living saints I don't care. 😆He needs to decide if it's elected politicians or professional bureaucrats he doesn't like - or maybe he just dislikes legitimate governments?
Seems to me looking back over the news for the last few days the Tories have pulled a blinder using UKIP as a vehicle to ensure Brexit whilst deflecting the blame from themselves then picking up the pieces to push Brexit through on behalf of the electorate and making UKIP a political irrelevance in the process. They are even going to get die hard labour voters to vote for them in this election to ensure Brexit is pushed through. What a set of numptys we are! I think it's called playing the long game.
I'd be tempted to think there was some 20 year Tory masterplan - except that they appear incapable of carrying out a plan they made 6 months ago. Therefore I reckon a corollary to Hanlon's Razor applies - don't attribute to a masterplan what is adequately explained by having the luck of everything falling their way. It's not as if they could have planned for Corbyn after all (and for those about to get upset, I'm not taken in by all the hype and would vote for him, but the mission of the media has been accomplished - though they did require a suitable target and not every Labour leader would have fallen so neatly into the trap).
She is a brilliant Prime Minister. Yes, please bow down to show respect.
Brilliant career politician. Terrible minister and case not proven but I suspect a chocolate teapot of a PM.
I quite enjoy your suggestions that one might bow down to a PM. How delightfully foreign. 😉
You were doing ok disagreeing with me up til then. After your brilliant PM comment you ceased making sense.
good read here
suspect a chocolate teapot of a PM.
Second best female pm we've ever had though?
ill try that again
good read here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-39845105
so hypothetically speaking if Darth Putin or some other big bad is galavanting around the shady parts of the web hacking pro-EU/anti-russia candidates
And/ Or using armies of Sock Puppets and Bots to influence the political debate
Theres no apparent evidence of such interference in Brexit , other than Farage, Galloway, Bone etc and other prominenet brexiters getting lots of interviews and pro brexit coverage on RT
who do they want to win this election
can we expect a dump of most embarassing Corbyns emails (sharing allotment wisdom with hamas)
or disclosing Mays vast profits creamed off brexit speculation or shutting down election fraud investigations??
Britain leaving the EU weakens it and our own international influence so I suppose hes most likely to back May, even if corbyn would raise the red flag over No10?
You could view it another way - the release of the Macron hack data (which[u] [b]if true[/b][/u] reveals he was up to his guts in offshore tax dealings that he had previously denied) could have had a major effect on the outcome of the elections, but was deliberately suppressed by the government with the assistance of a compliant press.
If the shoe had been on the other foot, and the leaks had undermined Le-Pen, would the same have happened?
If the leaks are true, at what point does this amount to the government restricting the free press in order to nobble the election in the favour of their preferred candidate?
If the Tories did the same to suppress a true and highly embarrasing story relating to Theresa May's financial dealings just before the upcoming general election - what would you be shouting afterwards?
but was deliberately suppressed by the government with the assistance of a compliant press.If the shoe had been on the other foot, and the leaks had undermined Le-Pen, would the same have happened?
Strangely rules are rules. It appears to have been a major cock up on the part of the leakers/hackers to leave it too late for full reporting. Also responsible journalists would like to check details before dumping material out that is extremely politically motivated and was released at a time to prevent the candidate from even commenting on any of it.
At some stage wiki leaks need to realise they are being played, the release everything policy makes them an ideal platform for political interference.
If the shoe had been on the other foot, and the leaks had undermined Le-Pen, would the same have happened?
while ive no doubt theres some anti lepen bias in the MSM
the mail, sun, telegraph etc wouldve been crowing like coqs if LePen had won, yet they were strangely silent on macrons victory
even if the tax allegations are true - it was left too late to have any effect and the alt-right had been slinging mud at Big Mac for a while- see Jamba going on about his wife etc
I was going to ask if anyone was handed an envelope with the words bad stuff about the other guy interviewing for the same job would you read it out loud to the panel or assume you were being set up?
You could view it another way - the release of the Macron hack data (which if true reveals he was up to his guts in offshore tax dealings that he had previously denied) could have had a major effect on the outcome of the elections, but was deliberately suppressed by the government with the assistance of a compliant press.
Or a press that is more interested in truth than in right wing propaganda and wanted to be sure before printing???
Doesn't france operate an electoral purda rule so nothing could have been published anyway.
Impression was that the "hackers" deliberately left it late enough that facts could not be checked, assuming that like the Wild West of the British press the story would be rushed out and facts checked later.
I am prepared to be surprised, but I will be surprised if the stories turn out to be true.