irelanst - MemberWhy are we (via the NHS) paying for emigrants health care? The NHS is a residence based system so surely we should only be paying for people who are temporarily overseas (I appreciate the country of residency wouldn't like that much though).
Because thats the way the reciprocal arrangements work. a retired UK citizen in spain gets the same access to healthcare as locals. the cost to Spain is reimbursed by the UK government. Same when a pole is over here and falls ill. they get free treatment and then the polish government reimburses us
So are you saying I should not be able to use the NHS Jambalaya?
I came in the UK on the 7th of October 1996 and started work on the 8th. Since then I've never been out of work and always employed, so always paid my NI.
Should I ask for a refund when I leave the UK next year?
But whatever deal is negotiated should be put back to the people.
Why - we (ok they) have vote Leave and that vote was based on a worst case scenario - unless folk are really dumb. The likelihood is that the end result will be better than this but not as good as the best case that TM is pushing for. Nor surprise so far, its a negotiation after all. But we cant keep going backwards and forwards to either Parliament or the Great British Public to finesse the detail. That has to be largely delegated if nothing else for practical reasons.
Seems to me that the wording of article 50 is vague enough that it just means it's the period of negotiation, it doesn't mean that it can't be reneged upon.
Its not vague, its just limited in scope hence there isnt much to renege on.
The first part of this is lauh out load funny 🙂 Blair .. everyone wants him back .. to campaign for Remain
Jamba - no answer to this?
There are mechanisms in place to find out who is due to pay and dedicated teams to make sure they do. Your figures are also nonsense - national audit office says the deficit is £200 million ( and I don't believe that for a moment) thats between what we do receive and what we should receive.
You see unlike you I know what is actually happening in the NHS and how it works. In your electronic notes is a code about your entitlement to free treatment and those who are not entitled get chased for the money.
@cchris not at all, under my scenario once we are out of the eu you'll have a visa and be perfectly entitled to use the nhs. Up until now anyone could come and be entitled to use the nhs which is the system which has existed and you are perfectly entitled to have the right of access.
By the way we went to the Urgence today (all ok) and my wife showed her ID and Carte Vital as normal, no big deal. Had it been me and as I can't find my EU health card I would have had to pay by credit card.
That Newsnight discussion - I feel sorry for the bloke, finding that you have to go and sell a turd and don't even have any glitter to roll it in.
TJ I answered already, I read those figures on BBC in the last couple of days and watched the Commons Seelct Committee excerpt on Sky News today "radical" measures the guy said.
Blair .. everyone wants him back .. to campaign for Remain
whats really funny is that the paucity of 'The Plan' for enacting Brexit that weve seen from leavers on here, prominent brexiters and the brexishambles government, Bliar keeping us in the EU seems like a good idea, assuming he can keep his warmongering to a minimum, things could only get better 😉
News just in, The Government are setting out their approach to brexshit.
Here it is: Blank piece of Paper
Is everybody now "CLEAR" on what's happening?
teamhurtmore - Member
But whatever deal is negotiated should be put back to the people.
Why - we (ok they) have vote Leave and that vote was based on a worst case scenario - unless folk are really dumb. The likelihood is that the end result will be better than this but not as good as the best case that TM is pushing for. Nor surprise so far, its a negotiation after all. But we cant keep going backwards and forwards to either Parliament or the Great British Public to finesse the detail. That has to be largely delegated if nothing else for practical reasons.
That's giving the tories a free hand to do with as they please, if not ratified by a ref, it must surely go back to parliament.
Blair come back as a Remain champion would certainly makes things interesting.
Ya, watched it last night it was so funny, I mean the desperation of wanting to remain so wanting so much that even forgoing their own principles to prefer Blair.jambalaya - Member
The first part of this is lauh out load funny Blair .. everyone wants him back .. to campaign for Remain
At least Caroline Lucas has a backbone to put history in its place. 😛
If Blair has any official role in remain I suspect leave will enjoy a huge boost, jeeeez, I might join in with Jamba.
Edit: but seriously what can remain possibly gain from enrolling a war criminal with gift for poisoning everything he touches?
That's giving the tories a free hand to do with as they please, if not ratified by a ref, it must surely go back to parliament.
No, they have a responsibility to execute a mandate like any government. Ok, in this case its complicated by having three nutcases at the heart of the negotiations, but that's life.
We did not vote on leave under certain conditions. We voted leave full stop, knowing full well what the worst case scenario would be - some even agued that this was a good scenario.
So we have to let the government get on with it
Jamba - what about
There are mechanisms in place to find out who is due to pay and dedicated teams to make sure they do.
and I did explain where you got the numbers muddled. yes there is a 400+ million difference in what we receive and what we pay out - but this is a reflection of the differing health needs of the two populations. the whole difference is not money not collected.
You will not be getting frontline nurse and doctors ( and PAMS) checking passports. It would be against our ethics which have a statutory basis
[i]You will not be getting frontline nurse and doctors ( and PAMS) checking passports[/I]
Again, passports are irrelevant, we have a system that is free-at-point-of-use and is paid for by NI contributions.
To quote:
Free healthcare at the point of use comes from the core principles at the founding of the National Health Service by the Labour government in 1948. In practice, "free at the point of use" normally means that anyone legitimately fully registered with the system (i.e. in possession of an NHS number), including UK citizens and legal immigrants, can access the full breadth of critical and non-critical medical care without any out-of-pocket payment.
In fact, should Jamba get access to the NHS if he's spent time overseas NOT paying NI? 😉
In summary, from full facts
EU immigration contributes to financial pressure on the NHS, but its annual impact is small compared to other factors. Whether EU immigrants pay enough into the public finances overall to cover their costs is difficult to say, and researchers give different answers. However, it does appear that they make more of a net contribution than other groups. The UK doesn’t claim back as much as it could of the cost of treating Europeans who come here for a shorter period as visitors or to live as pensioners, which is mostly down to the NHS not asking for money it is due.
Amusing to follow a debate between two posters who routinely make inaccurate statements, so
This means the UK effectively gets a poor deal from these schemes. But the discrepancy is not closely linked to the fact of EU membership. It is largely down to the NHS failing to recoup costs as other EU countries do. Government papers suggest that this is because NHS trusts find it easier not to record that they are owed money from abroad, thereby getting full payment from the standard system without the extra admin involved in tracking foreign visitors.
what is the collective noun for people who consistently post inaccurate comments? 😉
a hurtmore?
Because thats the way the reciprocal arrangements work. a retired UK citizen in spain gets the same access to healthcare as locals. the cost to Spain is reimbursed by the UK government.
Thanks TJ – I think I knew that but I was probably muddling myself because whilst living in Holland I wasn’t covered by the NHS and had to take out Dutch health insurance (and have a valid Dutch issued EHIC to get treatment from the NHS when back temporarily in the UK). The difference of course is that I was working and not claiming a UK pension.
Another one to sign if you would be so kind.
http://euromove.org.uk/save-our-eu-citizenship/email-committee/
why you so intent on allow this debacle to happen, without any resistance?eamhurtmore - Member
That's giving the tories a free hand to do with as they please, if not ratified by a ref, it must surely go back to parliament.
No, they have a responsibility to execute a mandate like any government. Ok, in this case its complicated by having three nutcases at the heart of the negotiations, but that's life.
We did not vote on leave under certain conditions. We voted leave full stop, knowing full well what the worst case scenario would be - some even agued that this was a good scenario.
So we have to let the government get on with it
why you so intent on allow this debacle to happen, without any resistance?
1. For the same reason, that I accept any vote. Its called democracy. We (Remainers) had our chance but we blew it. So we have no choice other than to get on with life in the new world.
2. I simply want the negotiations to start and for a conclusion to be reached asap, as delays are worse than Brexshit itself. During this next stage there will be (considerable) flip-flopping and noise that will create (unnecessary) volatility in FX, interest rates, markets etc. None of this is good for business.
3. Its absurd to believe that negotiations can be conducted through Parliament and/or plebiscites. Equally its absurd and unhealty to use such arguments as a cloak and dagger attempt to reverse the democratic process. Sadly, that is what many of our politicians are seeking to do.
1. For the same reason, that I accept any vote. Its called democracy. We (Remainers) had our chance but we blew it. So we have no choice other than to get on with life in the new world.
The vote wasn't to leave the EU.
The vote was to advise the government if we wanted to.
Equally its absurd and unhealty to use such arguments as a cloak and dagger attempt to reverse the democratic process.
The democratic process isn't happening. The democratic process would've been a vote in parliament as to whether or not to accept the referendum result at all. There was no vote.
It was advisory.
You will not be getting frontline nurse and doctors ( and PAMS) checking passports. It would be against our ethics which have a statutory basis
Well today in a French hospital it was a frontline medical person who took my wife's carte vital and ID. Now normally it is indeed an admin person at front desk, he/she also has the credit card machine. The French get their money back as they are set up for id checks amd payments.
I am a bit confused by the demographics comment, we have more sick immigrants than we have sick emmigrants ?
Ya, the majority of the people have advised (voted) UK to leave EU.molgrips - Member
It was advisory.
Negotiations arn't to be conducted through parliament, they can be informaly agreed between governments and then it is for parliament to ratify or throw out the proposals. It's a safeguard to prevent anything crazy happening, like a government pushing through a badly thought out deal, and how our democracy works.
Ya, the people have advised UK to leave EU.
My kids advise me of things all the time. I evaluate their requests then make decisions between me and the Mrs. I do what they want where it's practical.
Mol - get a grip!
Ya, you decide for your family but we decide for you as Majority.molgrips - Member
Ya, the people have advised UK to leave EU.
My kids advise me of things all the time. I evaluate their requests then make decisions between me and the Mrs. I do what they want where it's practical.
...?
Ya, you decide for your family but we decide for you as Majority.
You know on Who Wants to be a Millionaire, when they have the 'ask the audience' option? The contestant doesn't have to go with the audience's vote. But he wants to know their opinion.
It's like that.
You may disagree but the people have voted to leave the EU in a referendum. You might refer to it as advise but the bottom line is we are leaving EU. You want a vote in the Parliament. Ya, once we have signed the A50 then we can argue the best way to move forward to deal with the world.molgrips - Member
...?
Sorry Mol the fate is sealed ...molgrips - Member
You know on Who Wants to be a Millionaire, when they have the 'ask the audience' option? The contestant doesn't have to go with the audience's vote. But he wants to know their opinion.It's like that.
Blair might not be the most likeable person but he knows how to win general elections and get people behind him.
You might refer to it as advise but the bottom line is we are leaving EU.
Not sure you understand.
It was defined categorically as advice. An advisory referendum. That's not my interpretation of it, that's what it was.
The bottom line is that May has opted to go for it anyway. She didn't need to, but she chose to.
You might refer to it as advise but the bottom line is we are leaving EU.
It's referred to as advice because that's what it is, it's not legally binding, its essentially an opinion poll, one that was based on a pack of lies.
Blair might not be the most likeable person but he knows how to win general elections and get people behind him.
Poes Law?
sorry mol - (some) lawyers disagree
First, the Conservative General Election Manifesto of 2015 promised a referendum on membership of the EU in the following terms:[b]“We believe in letting the people decide: so we will hold an in-out referendum on our membership of the EU before the end of 2017.”[/b]
It should be noted that the election promise was to “let the people decide”. I[b]t was not a promise to hold an advisory referendum, with the final decision being left to Parliament.[/b] Nor was there any mention of minimum thresholds of percentage of vote or of turnout before the referendum would be binding. Therefore the British people were given[b] a politically and constitutionally binding promise[/b] in the election manifesto of the successful party that they would be given the final and deciding say in a referendum in which the majority would prevail.
Plus the government was explicit in how the referendum result would be viewed
The referendum on Thursday, 23rd June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.The Government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU.
This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UK’s economy for every family in this country – a clear path into the future, in contrast to the uncertainty of leaving.
[b]This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.[/b]
If you’re aged 18 or over by 23rd June and are entitled to vote, this is your chance to decide.
molgrips - Member
Not sure you understand.It was defined categorically as advice. An advisory referendum. That's not my interpretation of it, that's what it was.
The bottom line is that May has opted to go for it anyway. She didn't need to, but she chose to.
I do understand you want a vote in Parliament etc ...
I also know it is very hard and painful to know that things are not going the way the remainders want.
But do you think the other side will let others walk all over them?
That's like a business selling a product with no warranty, they can say it doesn't have one, it doesn't suddenly become enshrined in law and change the fact that legally it still does.
Just because someone says something, it doesn't override their legal obligations.
Yes, there is warranty but do you go for a warranty claim just because the warranty is there and where nothing is wrong with the product/services?mattyfez - Member
That's like selling a product with no warranty, you can say it doesn't have one, because legally it does.
I have never had to present ID to any health professional in France, Jamba. The Carte Vital is all they ask for, your European health cards are equivalent. I've gone to a doctor with nothing on me at all, got treatment and left with the old paper version of the "fiche de soins" and a bill to pay (edit: a hospital too).
But do you think the other side will let others walk all over them?
Whatever happens, a solution which doesn't sit in the middle ground means we're in for decades of a divided society. To me, the middle ground looks like freedom of movement and the common market will remain.
And you get your money back.
