[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Business isn't run with reference to the medium / long term its all about short term and they want an easy and free of cost life

And... You sure about this? They plan like, oooo, 2 days ahead?

No long term construction projects or 10 year contracts? Pension companies? Mineral & Petroleum companies? Knockup a rig over the weekend, drain the German Ocean of crude and back in time for tea, eh?

The NHS only gets a tiny amount because it doesn't bother to invoice other countries as explained in previous pages.

The NHS only gets a tiny amount because it doesn't bother to invoice other countries as explained in previous pages.

Molgrips. Controlled immigration yes. Eg casual farm workers (lorry drivers etc) must have a health insurance acceptable to nhs (Farage idea) other workers will have good jobs paying enough tax and ni to cover the cost of providing nhs cover.

Don't companies pay tax to the UK government? I know some pay very little.

They do but imo insufficient to cover membership. If companies want to be in the EU as they benefit they should pay for it. Now that doesn't address all the other issues of course inc the very significant costs in terms of stress on housing and public services from uncontrolled migration

May is offering tariff free access to the UK

Tarriff free is one thing, subsidized industry is another. For example. Agriculture.

You CANT be that naive. You just can't be.

Far as I'm concerned there should be no freedom of movement. Why should them from Tame valley be allowed over th'hill t Colne valley a mean thall, thall be drinking us beer n shaggin us sheep. In Free Yorkshire thall need sumot t prove who the is before thall be any doctorin n such like, n as fear get tha sprogs born ere, unless you can prove they play league or cricket, that can wobble back home an ave born on parish in Lancashire. Freedom for Yorkshire, freedom from bloody rest yer an all.

They do but imo insufficient to cover membership.

You may be right. I think you probably are but by proxy-their employees pay tax and, depending on the product, the purchasers pay tax, too.

The NHS only gets a tiny amount because it doesn't bother to invoice other countries as explained in previous pages.

Because they don't ask for ID or proof of entitlement. IMO another good example of how the NHS doesn't work from an organisational standpoint. The NHS doesn't really have a system to ask for money whereas ime every French clinic and hospital does.

If you didn't have freedom of movement the nhs wouldn't be under this additional pressure which is not fully recognised and costed not least as no one is collecting the data. Classic political BS, "there is no evidence of" because they are not even asking the question.

Now that doesn't address all the other issues of course inc the very significant costs in terms of stress on housing and public services from [s]uncontrolled migration[/s] [b]decades of underinvestment by successive UK governments[/b]

FIFY, providing schools and hospitals for tax payers is a good deal
[img] [/img]
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/unemployment-rate
Falling unemployment going to be near zero once all the immigrants are gone

Freedom for Yorkshire, freedom from bloody rest yer an all.

You can always tell a Yorkshireman.

But not much. 😀

Molgrips. Controlled immigration yes. Eg casual farm workers (lorry drivers etc) must have a health insurance acceptable to nhs (Farage idea) other workers will have good jobs paying enough tax and ni to cover the cost of providing nhs cover.

They already have health insurance from their own country don't thye? Assuming they carry an E111.

[i]Because they don't ask for ID or proof of entitlement. [/I]

As pointed out previously, nothing is set up for this - and having a UK passport is irrelevant.

A person who is regarded as ordinarily resident in the UK is eligible for free treatment by a GP. A person is 'ordinarily resident' for this purpose if lawfully living in the UK for a settled purpose as part of the regular order of his or her life for the time being.

It is a total failure of UK Govt's that means we do not seek re-compensation for non-UK resident medical expenses, but don't forget to factor in the cost of putting in a system to work this out. Since 99% (?) or more of costs are for folk who are entitled to them.

Jamba EU residents are entitled to free care. There are mechanisms in place to ensure those that have to pay do so. Its just you don't know what they are. On everyones electronic patient record ( here in Scotland) is a coding that states their entitlement and a dedicated team then chase them for payment if needed.

the same mechanisms ensure we are refunded by EU systems

Just because they don't have a cash register does not mean mechanisms are in place. It does require honesty from the patients tho but thats usual to get.

I can still remember my UK national insurance number. The last time I visited a dentist in the uk (why do I always break teeth on holiday?) the receptionist asked me my address which confused her, so I quoted my national insurance number which she didn't want, I produced an E111 (it's a card now Molgrips) which she wasn't interested in either. In the end she took the address where I was staying and gave me a bill for the full amount, which I paid. No cost to the NHS.

Madame went to an optician in the Uk as you have to wait ages for non-urgent eye tests in France. She had to pay the bill in full as they wouldn't accept the EU card.

So we've cost NHS nothing on our visits. My mother-in-law had a hip replacement when she fell whilst on holiday in France and it cost her nothing thanks to her E111. She had to pay the ambulance (as would a french person) and that was it.

But if Britain wishes to put people off visiting because they know they'll need expensive health cover as they do for the US then so be it. Plenty of other city breaks in the travel agent windows.

Jamba EU residents are entitled to free care.

And anyone else who lives here, EU or not. EU people are eligible when they are just visiting too.

Edukator - those things are still payable to us, not just visitors. That's why the dentist and the opticians have checkouts and cash registers and people to take your money.

Not quite molgrips - anyone is entitled to free emergency care. However non eu residents have to pay for routine stuff ie getting prescriptions filled, follow up on emergency care, childbirth etc

Oh - and health tourism is a complete non issue. It happens so rarely and costs so little that its not worthwhile doing anything about

We do know exactly who shuld pay and who should not - its in your patient records ( electronic in scotland) and is checked by a dedicated team to make sure that everyone who should pay is paying

Not quite molgrips - anyone is entitled to free emergency care. However non eu residents have to pay for routine stuff ie getting prescriptions filled, follow up on emergency care, childbirth etc

People who are UK resident get everything - it's not dependent on being a UK citizen or an EU one.

Now that doesn't address all the other issues of course inc the very significant costs in terms of stress on housing and public services from uncontrolled migration

😯 this doesnt become true magically merely through repetition. Most E EU migrants go home for medical cover and in aggregate contribute positively to funding public services.

😯 😯

Plus we dont have uncontrolled migration.

Now that doesn't address all the other issues of course inc the very significant costs in terms of stress on housing and public services from uncontrolled migration

As the country is making money from immigration (taxes taken but service not used - schools, hospitals etc,. as most immigrants are young, healthy and working) then it is a government issue as to why the money is not being spent on housing and public services not an immigration issue.

As the country is making money from immigration (taxes taken but service not used - schools, hospitals etc,. as most immigrants are young, healthy and working) then it is a government issue as to why the money is not being spent on housing and public services not an immigration issue.

Quite agree, I belive most if not all issues can be attributed to central and local government administration - but it's easier to blame the darkies and the EU, so they can carry on as normal. If they succeed in removing darkies and EU from the equation, they'll just blame some other group...

[i]Interesting[/i] article on YouGov.co.uk by their Head of Political and Social Research:

[url= https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/11/16/trump-brexit-front-national-afd-branches-same-tree/ ]Trump, Brexit, Front National, AfD: branches of the same tree[/url]

Talks about the rise of "Authoritarian Populism" as a separate thing from the old left/right splits.

[img] [/img]

fascinating reading Graham

heavens to grundo, there are some predictably daily-mail-esque replies though!

[url= http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38062164 ]Government borrowing fell by more than expected to £4.8bn in October[/url]

Government borrowing fell by more than expected to £4.8bn in October, thanks to a record amount of tax income for that month, official figures show.
The amount borrowed was £1.6bn lower than for the same month last year.
From April to October, the financial year to date, borrowing, excluding state-owned banks, fell by £5.6bn to £48.6bn, the lowest for the first seven months of a tax year since 2008.
The figures come a day ahead of the Autumn Statement on Wednesday.
Economists had expected borrowing to come in at £6bn last month.
Overall tax income in October was the highest since records began, driven in part by a 23.6% jump in corporation tax receipts.

Yes BUT.....(and good news on tax revenues)

We are still borrowing much more that budgeted for and will smash the fiscal year borrowing targets on the up- (ie wrong) side. Austerity eh?

TMH. We just don't know that as no one is collecting the data

We know we have a £600m deficit in paid/received
We know the Germans pay £700m pa in unemployment benefits to EU citizens all of whom are entitled to health care - so if we read across to the uk ...

Our welfare system and nhs aren't setup to cope with eu freedom (non contributory benefits, no id checks / payment mechanism). Now you can argue we should have addressed that but can you imagine the political resistance and the costs ...

yay corporation tax receipts up

so we are going to slash them to stop companies leaving post brexit...... 🙄

Jamba - I have already told you this is nonsense. There are mechanisms in place to find out who is due to pay and dedicated teams to make sure they do. Your figures are also nonsense - national audit office says the deficit is £200 million ( and I don't believe that for a moment) thats between what we do receive and what we should receive.

Strengthen the existing mechanisms if you like but no frontline NHS worker should be checking passports. Remeber we don't have ID cards - so what about the person who looks a bit forign but has lived in the UK all their lives but has no passport or driving license?

Yes we pay out a lot more in healthcare contributions towards the EU for our UK citizens than comes back - that is because we export our pensioners to spain, we import young fit people. Which group has higher healthcare costs?

Yes they are - health tourism is a non-issue PERIOD. The data is available on usage (low) and on contribution to funding services (positive). Yes, we are are poor at reclaiming what is due to the NHS but that is a separate issue.

But it is incorrect to state that EU migration is a "significant cost.... etc." It ISNT. Fact.

Its not an issue in the grander scheme of things other than pandering the xenophobic wings of UK society. In that respect, its a trump card sadly. 😯

NSFW .. could have gone in a few threads ... 2016 ... facebook link

TJ 'twas on the bbc website a couple of days ago .. paid £650m received £50m

IMHO giving someone full access to the nhs and welfare because they have a job paying £10k pa is nonsense, totally daft

If we had a Referendum on joining the EU even including all the opt outs it would in my view without a shadow of a doubt be a big fat NFW

IMHO giving someone full access to the nhs and welfare because they have a job paying £10k pa is nonsense, totally daft

WHAT?

You've really exposed yourself as a total **** with that statement.

So you want to save all the good stuff for the rich people and the poor can have the crumbs?

IMHO giving someone full access to the nhs and welfare because they have a job paying £10k pa is nonsense, totally daft

yeah because poor people shouldnt be treated the same as the rest of us 😯

To be fair, Jamba has been consistent in his not giving a shit about anyone else.

Jamba - you are muddling up two different things yes we pay out more to EU healthcare for treating our citizens than we receive for treating EU citizens - because 1) we have less immigrants than emmigrants 2) our emigrants are mainly retired with greater healthcare needs

the uncollected amount is estimated at £200 million and that I doubt and that also includes all non EU citizens as well

NSFW .. could have gone in a few threads ... 2016 ... facebook link
>

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Brilliant. Shared just to offend my in-laws.

Molgrips .. I was referring to freedom of movement eu citizens. Having a high tax free personal allowance is a good way to support British citizens. You may be aware that the Australians are curtailing (doing away with ?) tax free allowances for non-citizen casual workers.

To be fair, Jamba has been consistent in his not giving a shit about anyone else.

I have been very fortunate to have good jobs and made my contribution, I am very happy to support our welfare state with the caveat that it is for the use of British citizens of whatever race and origin. When I have worked in the US and Singapore I have done so after getting a visa part of the qualification if which was how much tax I would be paying, ie was I putting in enough ?

Sky News covering the NHS issue today, Commons Select Committee statement by senior nhs figure who says they are looking into "radical" ways of getting paid back. Also Tooting hospital is asking for ID for expectant mothers coming in for scans as a result of the numbers of people with no right to be in the UK.

teamhurtmore - Member
The only poll that mattered on Brexit was on June 23rd, 2016.
the only one that matters going forward is the commons vote.

True, but in this context potentially disturbing. We had a vote, we got a result (albeit the wrong one IMO), now we have a responsibility to respect it and [b]exercise the will of the people.[/b]

Which is what exactly?

[I]IMHO giving someone full access to the nhs and welfare because they have a job paying £10k pa is nonsense, totally daft[/I]

Ok, what is the minimum someone needs to earn, presumably enough to pay tax/NI - £25k?

our emigrants are mainly retired with greater healthcare needs

Why are we (via the NHS) paying for emigrants health care? The NHS is a residence based system so surely we should only be paying for people who are temporarily overseas (I appreciate the country of residency wouldn't like that much though).

teamhurtmore - Member
Endless talk about "there is no plan" is becoming absurd. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Following a referendum result, we have entered a period that has no precedent. No one has chosen to leave the EU before. There is no blueprint. There are multiple scenarios all of which are subject to considerable negation with a diverse range of other parties. Both "sides" have laid out their starting points, the rest is up to negotiation which can only begin (in theory) once A50 has been triggered. There is little extra that can be done now. So pass the Act, trigger A50 and let's get on with working out how to make the best of this bad job

I agree trigger article 50.

But whatever deal is negotiated should be put back to the people.

Article 50 is the act of triggering the negotiation. Once the negotiation is completed, it needs to go to the European parliament to be ratified.

It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

The same should at least happen here. But since we are all advocates of people power here, I suggest we put the negotiated settlement to the people, before the 2 years are up.

Seems to me that the wording of article 50 is vague enough that it just means it's the period of negotiation, it doesn't mean that it can't be reneged upon.

IMHO giving someone full access to the nhs and welfare because they have a job paying £10k pa is nonsense, totally daft

Anyone else noticed the weird correlation between people who want to slag off the NHS, and people who claim "health tourists" flock here to exploit it?

The use of "health tourism" to describe costs to the NHS from EU/overseas users is incredibly loaded and IMO mostly dishonest. If you come to the UK to access health services, you're a health tourist. If you're in the UK for any other reason and subsequently use the NHS, you're not a health tourist. But [i]for mysterious reasons[/i] people want to conflate the two. It's almost as though the numbers for health tourism are too small for their purposes so they want to inflate them, eh.

I am very happy to support our welfare state with the caveat that it is for the use of British citizens of whatever race and origin

Not everyone who lives and works here and pays taxes is a British citizen. My wife, for instance. Plus several colleagues I've known.

And if you exclude non-British citizen taxpayers, you'll exclude pepole who shouldn't have to pay. My wife has spent lots of time not working, so in your eyes she should have to pay medical fees even though I've paid shitloads of tax?

That rule is in place for a reason.

have many of you talking of health tourism used the non-emergency NHS recently? Compared it toFrance or Germany? The idea of health tourism in the UK must appeal only to base jumpers orotherfans of extreme sports