Anyone else hear the piece on PM about Johndon's 'discarded' Remain article? 😀 😀 😀
junkyard
I find it odd, THM aside, how so many can hate one union and love another.
I thought that was your stance as well?
I'm really interested for some one to clarify what the phrase "stronger in Europe means".
Gordon Brown came out today saying that we are better off in the union as we can assert our influence. I nearly fell off my chair laughing.
Influence! Given the lack of reforms that Cameron was able to obtain from the union, I'd say we don't have a great deal of influence to assert.
Pro remainers. Please do correct me if you feel that the UK is very influential in the decision making process of the eu machine.
Sort of but I dont hate either nor love either. I am ambivalent ish on both as I said I would have voted leave the UK as I would have voted for almost anything that ensured the tories did not rule my country. The break up of the union was a means to an end. This one I will vote stay mainly due to the fear of what would happen where the shower that is Brexit be in charge. IN terms of the unions I dont feel a great affinity nor fear of either tbh.
That said your comment is not without merit
They may not "wish to do that" but we cannot do that without being truly screwed. How many times do we have to do this ? 10 ? 20?I really think the massive balance of trade in our favour means they will not wish to do that
We all know that you think that us exporting over 50% of our trade to the EU and them exporting 4% to us whilst their economy being 5 times the size of ours[GDP] has led you to the really credible position that they cannot live without us due to a balance of payments deficit and we hold all the cards.
Its laughable. its ludicrous and it requires one to have no grasp of maths never mind economics. Its is fundamentally a really stupid thing to say, the fact you choose trade deficit is to deliberately deceive as you know the argument, explained accurately, is farcical hence the spin /BS/deception of describing it as you do, in terms of trade deficit. Its shameful.
If anyone else said this THM would be smarming them to death by now with economics 101 by insinuation. ENjoy your free pass.
You've seen evidence posted twice by pondo above
If you read what Cameron achieved recently - and ignore the BS on both sides - that indicates a large amount of influence eg, exemptions from most of the things we do not like - and we still have the rebate.
We will not have influence on the direction of greater political union precisely because we have the ability to negotiate and confirm a uniquely strong position for ourselves.
And folk want to throw this all away. Madness....
NO economic lesson then 😉
Lucky , lucky Jamby eh
The fact that Poland were able to veto migrant workers sending back child benefit money to Poland is just a single example of where we have to bow to countries that we should not have too.You've seen evidence posted twice by pondo above
"Assessment: Mr Cameron had to compromise on this aspect of the deal in the face of strong opposition from Poland and three other central European countries. He got the four-year "emergency brake" on in-work benefits he had set such store by - but new arrivals will have their tax credits phased in over four years. The brake will be in place for a maximum of seven years, rather than the 13 years Mr Cameron is thought to have wanted - but the EU has agreed it would be "justified" to trigger it without delay after the referendum if the UK votes to stay in the EU.
Mr Cameron failed in his original demand to ban migrant workers from sending child benefit money back home. Payments will instead be linked to the cost of living in the countries where the children live. The new rules will apply immediately for new arrivals, and for existing claimants from 2020."
In a nutshell, the UK government should be able do as it so chooses and stick 2 fingers up to member states that don't agree.
The remain camp will most likely win, but anti eu sentiment will remain and I envisage a massive surge of voters from labour and tory to ukip post vote. If the numbers are large enough the out campaign could still get there way in 2020 if an anti eu party gets voted in.
The fact that Poland were able to veto migrant workers sending back child benefit money to Poland is just a single example of where we have to bow to countries that we should not have too.
Hold the front pages.....it's a disaster, Polish migrants (no really 😉 are sending money home. Run for the exit....we're doomed.
No point repeating the fact that Poles contribute more than they take out - doesn't fit the xenophobic narrative that Farrage and Co peddle
@Bazz why not give another country a try you may find another suits you better, freedom of movement while you can
Well I actually quite like it here, I just feel our future lies in a greater Europe and don't really care about whose head is on the money (let's be honest coins and paper money will be obsolete in my lifetime) and rectangles of coloured fabric.
And I can only speak English and am crap at learning new languages 😀
xenophobic. Yawn!!No point repeating the fact that Poles contribute more than they take out - doesn't fit the xenophobic narrative that Farrage and Co peddle
That line get's tiresome. Have you ever considered that it's more to do with the fact that uk laws have to be agreed by another country.
So does the bloody Poles nonsense. And no..
The fact that Poland were able to veto migrant workers sending back child benefit money to Poland is just a single example of [s]where we have to bow to countries that we should not have too[/s] the democratic process at work
FTFY
In a nutshell, the UK government should be able do as it so chooses and stick 2 fingers up to member states that don't agree.
And there, in a nutshell, is the "f*** you" generation neatly summarised. As a matter of interest, why shouldn't Polish or any other EU migrants be able to send child benefits back home?
Have you ever considered that it's more to do with the fact that uk laws have to be agreed by another country.
Fact us up and give us an example, there's a post on this very page that suggests to the contrary. With apologies for the repetition, it goes something like -
"Priti Patel says the UK has no say over the amount of regulation coming from the EU. She also says the UK is constantly being outvoted.
Reality Check verdict: The UK does have a say over regulations affecting small businesses, both through its MEPs and government ministers who vote at the Council, where they have been on the "winning side" 86.7% of the time in recent years."
Why is it nonsense. The UK government are clamping down on the total welfare spend. If disabled people living in the UK have to have their benefits scrutinised and cut, why do you think a foreign national has the right to claim child benefit for kids not residing here and send it home to where the cost of living is cheaper. Seems somewhat unfair to me.So does the bloody Poles nonsense. And no..
The UK government are clamping down on the total welfare spend.
Hang on a minute - two seconds ago you were honking about the British government NOT being able to do what it wanted to do? So they can clamp down on welfare as they please - and that's the people you want in FULL control of the country?
Don't worry - just vote exit.
Fact us up and give us an example
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105[/url]
It's not just here.
[url= http://www.thelocal.de/20160510/major-political-parties-have-never-been-so-unpopular-poll ]Merkel Out[/url]
The UK is a joke in the eyes of the EU member states. Given we are the 5th largest economy in the world I'm staggered we put up with the sh!t. They need us far more than we need them.
I don't think I need to clarify my point. It's self explanatory.Hang on a minute - two seconds ago you were honking about the British government NOT being able to do what it wanted to do? So they can clamp down on welfare as they please - and that's the people you want in FULL control of the country?
I'll say it for the 100th time. At least we can vote said party out every 5 years if they screw things up.and that's the people you want in FULL control of the country?
They need us far more than we need them
The ;last recourse of the desperate
You lot crack me up. I get the opinion your a load of liberal lefties. The EU is falling apart and I cross my fingers it keeps going down the pan and eventually collapses anyway.The ;last recourse of the desperate
teamhurtmore - Member
Leave, and rebuild the EU as we were originally sold it, or stay for full political and fiscal union of an ever expanding superstate.
Well the only thing that IS certain is that neither of these are going to happen.You are correct on some issues, however - eg, we did not have our reform moment - sorry Dave you have massively oversold that one - but we did secure certain (and important) aspects of our membership eg, we would not be part of greater political and fiscal union, the folly that is the euro, Schengen etc. So it is clear that we ARE NOT going to be part of full political and fiscal union. Cross that one out.
That being said, for certain countries this union is unavoidable for as long as they want to keep a single currency. The only questions are (1) do they and (2) who will be involved. We have no say in this process, nor should we.
So we cannot leave and reform - cross that one out too. The only issue (but not the one we are voting on) is what is the nature of the relationship that we and other non-Euro members want to have with the rest of the EU. But it is a mirage to think this is option one.
On success:
The European Union - largely but not exclusively an obvious YES
The Euro - an obvious NO. Poorly designed, poorly executed and a disaster for the countries involved especially the young and low-skilled in peripheral countries
The two ARE NOT the same things however - HTH
This is a good post and I completely agree. (Yes I'm stunned too! 😆 )
Thank you Joe, almost missed this as I was reading your interesting post on Scottish Labour. It is an extraordinary story.
teamhurtmore - Member
The two ARE NOT the same things however - HTH
It will be the SAME the longer you are in coz it is the natural evolution of the EU beast.
"Cameron a big wuss of a failure when demanding concessions"Fact us up and give us an exampleIt's not just here.
German people aren't going to vote for Merkel any more
The original question was with regard to the UK being able to make its own laws, which has nack-all to Cameron's wetfishness or Merkel's lack of popularity.
The UK is a joke in the eyes of the EU member states. Given we are the 5th largest economy in the world I'm staggered we put up with the sh!t. They need us far more than we need them.
Massive amounts of our exports go to Europe - our position as 5th is as likely as not to drop through the floor if we leave, there's little we sell to Europe that they wouldn't be reasonably able to purchase from other EU countries if we're outside in the cold.
Highly unlikely. Closer union (monetary and fiscal) only required if you want a common currency. The common currency is flawed and cannot work by design. It's just a matter of time before rationality is restored and the € is abandoned. Hopefully before the good bits of the EU have not been completely destroyed.
No surprise that the Brexit bus has the cost of entry lie blazoned across it. At least they don't hide their lies. Brazen deceit.
It will be the SAME the longer you are in coz it is the natural evolution of the EU beast.
You don't half talk some shite.
But, imports are > than the exports.Massive amounts of our exports go to Europe
Read into it as you will, but the cynics among us will argue that Europe never saw a place for Britain in the union.
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/27/newsid_4187000/4187714.stm ]De Gaulle Says 'non'[/url]
What, like Gideon's 14 year made up forecast on impact to household incomes?No surprise that the Brexit bus has the cost of entry lie blazoned across it. At least they don't hide their lies. Brazen deceit.
Plus the risk of war too.
But, imports are > than the exports.
Over 50 % of our exports are to them and only 4 % of theirs are to us
What is your point caller as it seems somewhat difficult to argue "they need us more than we need them"
See this is the thing, what happens to that trade if there is a no vote? The treaties get ripped up and the UK can't trade with Europe until new treaties are signed?We all know that you think that us exporting over 50% of our trade to the EU and them exporting 4% to us whilst their economy being 5 times the size of ours[GDP] has led you to the really credible position that they cannot live without us due to a balance of payments deficit and we hold all the cards.
Is it just me or does does that not pretty much signal a big massive crash in the uk?
Who buys these exports throughout the new negotiation period(the amount of trade the uk does with europe clearly gives it a very bad hand in negotiations) And can anyone really imagine Boris trying to renegotiate new treaties...
Leaving is a ridiculous idea.
Nothing will happen - it will take 2-10 years to bring clarity to how it will work. And we know what uncertainty does to investment....madness.
pondo - Member
It will be the SAME the longer you are in coz it is the natural evolution of the EU beast.
You don't half talk some shite.
Very simple if you are in for the long run then at some point in the future you will want to [b]standardise [/b]everything to make life easier for all member states. At the moment certain members are being tolerated for having their own currency etc but that will disappear in the long run as the pressure will increase. It's inevitable. You do not have to look very far as the process of standardisation is already ongoing. You are just tolerated because they are still trying to sort out their own bureaucratic mess. All the talks of member state not having the same economy standard etc are just smoke screen. You got to be blind not to see the obvious but then you might be deliberately blind.
What is your point caller as it seems somewhat difficult to argue "they need us more than we need them"
Not sure where you got those figures from.
EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.6 billion (5.7 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared with March 2015.
EU Imports for March 2016 were £20.2 billion. This was an increase of £0.8 billion (4.1 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.5 per cent) compared with March 2015.
[url= https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/EU_and_Non-EU_Data.aspx ]Trade Stats[/url]
Can someone explain in plain English to a Northern monkey why we have to be in 'Da Club' to buy from & sell to, other nations in said club? We sell to other countries around the globe & buy from them too. 'Made in China' ring any bells?
(I'm still 'out' though.)
Very simple if you are in for the long run then at some point in the blah blah half thought out guff.
I'm sure I have out-blithered you at one point in the past, but you got me covered tonight.
You have shown how much they changed from last months[ or the same month the year before] not what the % was as a % of our or their total export trade.
The figures and sources are quoted elsewhere in this thread and they are from the ONS IIRC.
pondo - Member
Very simple if you are in for the long run then at some point in the blah blah half thought out guff.
I'm sure I have out-blithered you at one point in the past, but you got me covered tonight.
It is called standardisation. Elementary management 101.
esselgruntfuttock - MemberCan someone explain in plain English to a Northern monkey why we have to be in 'Da Club' to buy from & sell to, other nations in said club? We sell to other countries around the globe & buy from them too. 'Made in China' ring any bells?
(I'm still 'out' though.)
Because of the club rules.
The club rules dictates that all members should have the opportunity to share the cake equally. If you have already eaten your share of cake then it's the turn of other club members to sample the cake (buy cheap from China then rip-off the locals). What they do not realise is they are all addicted to cheap goods because they are all greedy little piggies.
Not sure where you got those figures from.
The UK makes up about 16% of goods that the EU exports to the rest of the world - about, what, 42% of our exports go to the EU? Fully prepared to put my hand up as not an economist, but to my eyes we need them more than they need us.
See this is the thing, what happens to that trade if there is a no vote? The treaties get ripped up and the UK can't trade with Europe until new treaties are signed?
@seaso of course we can trade with the EU in the event of a Brexit and no trade deal. We and the EU trade with US, China etc and no trade deal exists. Trade deals just reduce import duties and/or otherwise try and facilitate smoother trading, eg reduced/mutually agreed regulations/standards
So lets do Vaccums .... EU has decided high powered electricals are bad news, too energy inefficient. So no longer allowed. Who is fhe biggest producer of such vacuums/devices with all the patents, Dyson. Who will gain, all the EU producers like Bosch and Miele who are far less focused on such products. Hey, but we had our say just that we where out voted
Trade deals just reduce import duties...
That is, if you don't mind me saying, rather casually tossed off as though it's of no concern.
Bit of a problem with that argument is that Dyson have never produced a vacuum cleaner that exceeds the current EU limit and in fact argued for a lower limit of 700w
jambalayaHey, but we had our say just that we where out voted
I know this is probably useless, but can you post a source? The only reference I can find is that the UK supported the energy efficiency directive.
Didn't mean to imply that @pondo, they are of course important. It is a fact though that we/EU don't have trade deals with many of our most important trading partners. I am not unduely worried about a Brexit with no EU trade deal - personally I'd go with UKIPs proposal of immediately triggering the 2yr exit timetable not least to protect us being dragged more deeply into a Greek default/bailout. A 2yr timetable would put a fire under the EU to hurry things up deom their normal glacial pace.
@Junky @tmh is very welcome to give me his full economic broadside. Labour ruled your country for 13 years and that didn't work out for anyone and certainly not for Scottish Labour MPs. On trade deals and using your slant it seems the EU is keen on doing trade deals with "small" entities like the Palastinian Authority and Moldovia yet no so keen with large trading blocks like the US and China - so if we are as unimportant as you say we sound like the sort of cou try the EU would want to do a deal with 😉
News stroies tomorrow about the real numbers of migrants (not really new news) and more incendiary the allegation the Government is trying to cover it up.
@Lifer Source: I read a news piece with Dysin founder being quoted, was quite a while ago