[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Time for a change.

Time to leave EU.

Time to let the babysitting to someone else after two World Wars.

kyl spoke to some farming people in the Lake District lastvweek and they where very much Leave, thry also said if farmers where more confident a futur government would match subsidies many more would be strongly leave

Political posters on big landholdings are deceptive in all elections - representation of ideas based on wealth... You're talking about several miles (10s of) hoardings to represent the views of one landowner... Also, the farming community is a small, and dare I say, quite isolated segment of the U.K. population, with largely right wing views (I say this coming from a farming family background - the masters voice is all that counts and any other views can get orf down the road)

Interestingly, NFU has come out for Remain, which I find surprising. A case of business brain winning over instinctive heart???

Wer'e 'out' in our house.

Also interesting is this:

[url= http://www.socenv.org.uk/news/socenv-ends-report-eu-referendum-survey-results/ ]Environmental research[/url]

[url= http://www.socenv.org.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=3716254&type=full&servicetype=Attachment ]Research report[/url]

When politicians of a certain persuasion talk about "cutting red tape", this is what they mean...

- get rid of that pesky environmental legislation...
- increase profits by reducing "overheads" relating to looking after the environment (it makes me laugh that Brexiteers are railing against Corporate Remain statements - the responsible Corporates will continue to manage their environmental liabilities... Whilst others will just follow the profit motive without any EU imposed restraints)
- get rid of this 'elf n safety nonsense, because we all want a boss that just tells us to get the F on with it...
- etc, etc

We had a straw poll in the pub after a ride the other day, I think only one of the Eight or ten there expressed pro-leave voting intentions, with a couple of not sures Not at all scientific and a bit of beer had been consumed but interesting none the less as I was quite surprised by a few of them as I would have guessed otherwise.

jimw - Member
We had a straw poll in the pub after a ride the other day, I think only one of the Eight or ten there expressed pro-leave voting intentions.

The "In" vote will win (I hope not but they will ... ) because people are too afraid to take the leap into the unknown.

If my crystal ball prediction is right the lot with weaker upbringing will find it very tough to earn a living in future.

Gone were the days where your parents can "kick you out" so you can afford one yourself but say hello to Chinese HK style living where you will have three generations under one roof.

Most newcomers can endure generations under one roof but you might find this sort of living difficult.

Also property price, house rental etc will increase because opportunists will now have more people to skin!

The only solution is to relocate people to Wales and Scotland since they have plenty of space there. Then give plenty of incentives for company to relocate to those regions. There they can earn a living and start new and you will have a cosmopolitan multi-cultural multi-ethic society ...

In the meantime tax will have to increase for all in order to feed new arrivals coz not all of them can find jobs that quickly.

However, if you vote out at least you are given the time to prepare and to see how things develop in other countries.

Sorry, but can someone explain for the "hard of thinking"...?

- I can't see any connection between EU membership / EU exit and immigration control. I'd be fascinated to hear this explained in a rational manner.
- Also, I don't understand the "we'd be able to manage our own economy" type assertions... Surely, in a globalised economy this is either delusional or requires some form of complete withdrawal from the global marketplace 😯

Rkk01 - quite.

It's not as if governments run things anyway. We're all at the mercy of commerce. Which is why we have an EU in the first place.

Sorry, but can someone explain for the "hard of thinking"...?

- I can't see any connection between EU membership / EU exit and immigration control. I'd be fascinated to hear this explained in a rational manner.
- Also, I don't understand the "we'd be able to manage our own economy" type assertions... Surely, in a globalised economy this is either delusional or requires some form of complete withdrawal from the global marketplace

Just vote Out.

There your problem solved.

I can't see any connection between EU membership / EU exit and immigration control. I'd be fascinated to hear this explained in a rational manner.

At present any EU citizen can travel here. If we leave then they cannot. God knows what happens to all of us over there or the ones here with British born kids etc.

-

Also, I don't understand the "we'd be able to manage our own economy" type assertions... Surely, in a globalised economy this is either delusional or requires some form of complete withdrawal from the global

Does anyone know the how much on average are the current EU citizens working in UK earn or tax?

Surely not all of them are high flyers as the common sense dictates that the higher you climb in the corporate world the lesser the vacancy available. i.e. not everyone becomes manager instantly. There are more lower earning jobs available then high earning jobs.

God knows what happens to all of us over there

Not really God, it's already written, and by hand, not god.
No scare stories are needed.

Nothing to do with God.

You mess up! 🙄

At present any EU citizen can travel here. If we leave then they cannot. God knows what happens to all of us over there or the ones here with British born kids etc.

Nonsense, surely? If we want to trade, then we accept free movement of EU citizens, surely? From what I have read, the Swiss have been rather slow in implementing the "free movement" part of their EU trade deal, and are now facing sanctions. Students and universities are particularly hard hit as access to the Erasmus programme and various other shared academic programmes have been curtailed for Swiss participants...

Treaties are in place, they don't include sky fairies.
Still in favour of booting you out though chewkw, dont think you're safe.

Thinking about the consequences of the vote, rather than the vote itself, one (largely) positive outcome would be:

A marginal win for Remain.
Enough of a win that Cameron and Osborne don't resign immediately, which would mean uncertainty, which with the economy as weak as it is, we don't need right now.
Enough of a win for companies to feel confident about investing and recruiting
Not enough of a win for the Brexiters - like Scotland, if it's close then they'll feel encouraged to keep making a fuss until they can get another vote in a few years time
This fear of an exit vote next time around will rattle the EU - there's plenty of people in other EU member states for whom EU is not quite working at the moment too so EU are desperate for UK to stay in as a leave might well mean a total collapse of EU
This fear can be used by Cameron to go in for some proper reform rather than the wet lettuce he brought back earlier this year. ie: 'if you don't pay attention to those wanting reform, it'll be the end of the EU cos no reform just gives the Exiteers the argument they need for another 'leave' vote.

At the end of the day, Cameron's strategy is all written by Osborne who's pure game-player - so they'll be planning some long-term game here, it's not just about a win in June.

Mind you, I may be assuming that Osborne and Cameron actually give one about the future of the UK, which given what they've done to the London housing market and the economy in general (and the £170bn of foreign money in shell companies in UK property) maybe somewhat naive thinking on my part!

brooess - Member

A marginal win for Remain.

No such thing as a marginal vote; it will be used as a mandate for the European Superstate.

Lest we forget:

RECALLING that the Treaties, together with references to the process of European integration and to the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe,[b] contain also specific provisions whereby some Member States are entitled not to take part in or are exempted from the application of certain provisions or chapters of the Treaties and EU law as concerns matters such as the adoption of the euro, decisions having defence implications, the exercise of border controls on persons, as well as measures in the area of freedom, security and justice. [/b]Treaty provisions also allow for the non-participation of one or more Member States in actions intended to further the objectives of the EU, notably through the establishment of enhanced cooperations. [b]Therefore, such processes make possible different paths of integration for different Member States, allowing those that want to deepen integration to move ahead, whilst respecting the rights of those which do not want to take such a course,[/b]

Recalling in particular that the United Kingdom has already been entitled under the Treaties:

–  [b]not to adopt the euro [/b]and therefore to keep the British pound sterling as its currency (Protocol ?No 15),
–  [b]not to participate in the Schengen acquis [/b](Protocol No 19),
–  [b]to keep exercising border controls on persons,[/b] and therefore not to participate in the Schengen ?area as regards internal and external borders (Protocol No 20),
– [b] to choose whether or not to participate in measures in the area of freedom, security and justice[/b] ?(Protocol No 21),
–  to cease to apply as from 1 December 2014 a large majority of EU acts and provisions in ?the field of police cooperation and judicial cooperation in criminal matters adopted before the entry into force of the Lisbon Treaty while choosing to continue to participate in 35 of them (Article 10(4) and (5) of Protocol No 36), ?Recalling also that the Charter of Fundamental Rights has not extended the ability of the Court of Justice or any court or tribunal in the United Kingdom to rule on the consistency of the law and practice of the United Kingdom with the fundamental rights that it reaffirms (Protocol No 30),

sbob - Member
Treaties are in place, they don't include sky fairies.

Treaties are written by human so it can be changed by human. Get it?

Unless of course your treaties are written by God in that case the thunder will strike you if you want to change it.

In a way if you say they cannot be changed then you are agreeing with the notion that they are written by the almighty? EU almighty? 😆

The EU is a bit like joining a club innit.

You comply with the club rules.

The club rules are voted by the members and can be changed by the members via a voting system.

But if you decide to form your own club or dis-join the club then there is not much they can do really.

Yes, you might be bored or lonely at first after dis-joining the club for a period of time but that's just a temporary effect like getting off addictive substances.

Still in favour of booting you out though chewkw, dont think you're safe.

Might be internet thingy.

Be specific as I cannot read your mind.

Booting me out from where? STW? UK? EU? Where?

I need to know what you say exactly before I reply otherwise I get into trouble.

So explain please.

chewkw - Member
Does anyone know the how much on average are the current EU citizens working in UK earn or tax?

As has been said many, many times, evidence posted, point repeated and (conveniently) ignored, EU migrants are a net benefit to the UK.

Lifer - Member
As has been said many, many times, evidence posted, point repeated and (conveniently) ignored, EU migrants are a net benefit to the UK.

Who published those information?

98% are either working or studying

They continue to our economy and more so than migrants from non-EU countries

Given our poor demographic outlook we will need more of them - not least, to prop up our ponzi-esque pensions

Be very careful what you wish for!

teamhurtmore - Member
98% are either working or studying

They continue to our economy and more so than migrants from non-EU countries

How can non-EU migrants not contribute if they are here?

Most non-EU are also here to study or to work. Also in education they pay Three times the fees by comparison to UK/EU students until recently. They Do Not get loan unlike those in UK the loan is only in name coz you do not really have to pay back for a very long time.

Given our poor demographic outlook we will need more of them - not least, to prop up our ponzi-esque pensions

Be very careful what you wish for!

The pension system is unsustainable (public) in the long run coz that is another broken system.

Wish for what?

No such thing as a marginal vote; it will be used as a mandate for the European Superstate.

In? Out?

FFS, we might as well shake it all about, do the frikkin okey cokey. No one has a blind doo-lally of a clue as to what will, might or won't happen if we stay or go.

Result being that all the spouted and pontificated propaganda from both sides is pointless at best. The more recent scare-mongering tactic - that Europe will be plunged into military conflict, smacks of panic and desperation to me.

The sooner we accept that this referendum is lip service and modern democracy is being led most ably by the USA, in that the $, or £ in this instance, is directly proportional to who wins, the sooner we can continue with our lives and stick our heads further into the sand buckets.

Anybody hear the heartfelt appeal by IDS to the middle classes? The man who introduced the bedroom tax wants you to vote out to help the less well off in Britain. 😆

@rkk controllled immigration is clearly better then uncontrolled. If we need tradesmen, academics, doctors, nurses etc we take the best from anywhere in the workd.

@molgrips Europe is stagnating (look at unemployment in France and Spain and EU growth vs UK) we are locked into a low growth EU which is attempting to hide this fact be ever rapid expansion with very poor countries. Look at average earnings in the "likely to join" club £7k-10k pa vs our £28k

By the way for those that think the EU is about protecting employment rights look at the very clear writing on the wall. Hollande yesterday pushed through Labour reforms (the ones the students have been demonstrating/rioting against) without even consulting Parliament. Labour laws will not, indeed can not, remain as they are when our competitors around the world don't have them and are hungry for our prosperity

UK immigration is controlled (but could be done better true)

We are not locked into Europe - we have our own currency and independent monetary and fiscal policy. We also enjoy advantageous access to one of the world's largest trade zones. And we want to give that up??? mindboggling.....

Has anyone covered Brexit leading to Scotland remaining in EU and rUK out?
Surely the SNP are hoping for an out vote so they can force another referendum on Scotland leaving the UK?

In case of a Leave IMO there is no way Scotland could gain independence and negotiate joining the EU as a new country before a Brexif was finalised. In addition with the UK out Scotland would imo definitely have to take the euro and join the back of the queue for membership application. You'd also have the situation where SNP would be claiming how poor Scotland is in order to avoid a large EU budget contribution. With the UK outside the EU its bot clear to me the Scots would be more likely to want independence, costs would be even higher and they'd definitely have to take the euro

@tmh and the European Stability Fund ? A call for 10's if not 100b when Greece goes and contagion risk to Spain, Italy etc ? Camerons "renegotiation" is not supported by treaty change so the pledge for eurozone not to prejudice us is worth the paper its not written on 🙂

If it's a narrow Remain and the Scottish vote swung it, I doubt the SNP will have to call for a referendum.

Found this interesting -
"[b]The claim: [/b]Priti Patel says the UK has no say over the amount of regulation coming from the EU. She also says the UK is constantly being outvoted.

[b]Reality Check verdict: [/b]The UK does have a say over regulations affecting small businesses, both through its MEPs and government ministers who vote at the Council, where they have been on the "winning side" 86.7% of the time in recent years."

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388 ]Sauce[/url]

@pondo yup we had a say in the appointment of Junker ! Did you see Luxembourgs responce to the whistleblowers who revealed he had personally signed off on cosy tax deals which have subsequently been ruked illegal as anreukt of their Whistleblowing ? Put on trial with prosecution calling for prison sentences.

Yes of course SNP are keen in any justification to demand another referendum particularly now that they have lost their majority

Just Like the tories have suddenly become more unionist because they lost the London mayoral election - awesome analysis as always.

In addition with the UK out Scotland would imo definitely have to take the euro and join the back of the queue for membership application

Its pretty obvious that if Scotland votes to stay and England swings it against them there will be some more clamouring for another referendum vote. I find it odd, THM aside, how so many can hate one union and love another. It boils down to whether they are the "bully" or the "bullied" as far as I can see.

jambalaya -
@pondo yup we had a say in the appointment of Junker ! Did you see Luxembourgs responce to the whistleblowers who revealed he had personally signed off on cosy tax deals which have subsequently been ruked illegal as anreukt of their Whistleblowing ? Put on trial with prosecution calling for prison sentences.

I'm guessing i'm in a very small minority that really couldn't give a crap if we do become one state in the United States of Europe, join a (working) single currency and swap the Union flag for a blue one with some gold stars.

My patriotism has reached all new low levels.

I'm finding Boris & Farage harder & harder to tell apart...

Anybody hear the heartfelt appeal by IDS to the middle classes?

Oh yeah, IDS, another duplicitous scrote & yet another reason not to vote for Brexit!

I'm getting the sense that RemIn have lost the plot, they've rolled out the £9m leaflet, IMF, OECD, Obhama, Cameron's World War 3, Osbourne's falling house prices and they are still losing ground particularly with small and medium sized businesses. Just 45 days to go

@pondo - control is a key and very real aspect, we've given it away and the situation is only going to get worse

@JY the queue for EU membership is a fair bit longer than the queue for US trade deals (ie 1), real rather than a figment of Barack's imagination

@Bazz why not give another country a try you may find another suits you better, freedom of movement while you can 😉

Jambas - we have not given away control, that is a myth. See link ^ above falsifying the legal BS that Brexiters keep resorting to in order to hoodwink the great British public.

Who sets our IR, taxes, laws etc....you complain about the lack of integration on issues such as tax, so you cant have it both ways

45 ways of continued gross distortions - what a crock

@JY the queue for EU membership is a fair bit longer than the queue for US trade deals

Hard to say what the EU would do in that scenario but its clearly expansionist and it is quite likely to want to annoy rUK

I bet they could wing it so Scotland keeps the UKL membership if they really wanted to with some legal fudge.

@pondo - control is a key and very real aspect, we've given it away and the situation is only going to get worse

"The claim: Priti Patel says the UK has no say over the amount of regulation coming from the EU. She also says the UK is constantly being outvoted.

Reality Check verdict: The UK does have a say over regulations affecting small businesses, both through its MEPs and government ministers who vote at the Council, where they have been on the "winning side" 86.7% of the time in recent years."

@pondo, yes we can agree we have a voice, a say but we don't have control over many things we previously did. Its my view we don't get nearly enough back to compensate for this or what we put in and all of this is going to get worse, less say, more contributions, less back in return

Hard to say what the EU would do in that scenario but its clearly expansionist and it is quite likely to want to annoy rUK

We have more than a voice - we have considerable control. Brexit BS relies on exaggerated claims that fall over under basic scrutiny as pondo has illustrated.

The reduction in trade barriers has had a massive impact on trade that is casually ignored and replaced by lies over the cost of membership

Its a bloody bargain with safeguards that would be on most peoples' blank sheets of paper.

I really think the massive balance of trade in our favour means they will not wish to do that.

Do any brexiters consider that the trade with the EU might actually owe something to the fact that we are IN the EU?

we don't have control over many things we previously did

& when was this exactly?

1955??