[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

jambalaya - Member

Good to see Cameron and Osbourne being attacked and weakened ahead of fhe Referendum. 😀

at the same time you must be upset that Marine Le Pen has been dragged into this

given the importance of the issue its amazing (1) how quiet [beyond the loonies on both sides] the debate is and (2) linked to (1) how poor the arguments have been to date

Jambas - no many is not more than one IMO. The idea that there is some kind of deluge of immigrants is false and those that do come mainly come to work or study. A tiny % are on benefits. So most of this topic is little more than xenophobia/scaremongering

jambalaya - Member

Many is more than one no?

Well, [i]kind[/i] of- many is definitely more than one. But it's more than one more than one.

many million

Many million isn't a number, its a descriptive term = meaning sweet FA without `facts & context..

Bookies or pollsters?

https://theconversation.com/brexit-campaign-is-doomed-if-bookmakers-are-right-again-57514

delayed until October?

https://theconversation.com/fact-check-do-the-treasurys-brexit-numbers-add-up-58086

the problem is you can throw all the numbers in the world at these brexiters and they still think that stying in means inviting anders brevik round for tea or something

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good scare story kimbers..

True that kimbers

Whilst some of the claims may be overstated its only worth asking how bad it will be
One on the radio today was saying how we would leave the EU pick the laws we wanted,save all the money , and still be in the free trade area. My 10 year old son has a better grasp of th complexities than that fantasist.

Basically if you say it wont be brilliant - clearly we will survive after decade of tough times - then you are pedalling fear.

We won't have access to the European fear market if we leave the EU so we won't be able to peddle our fear!

Brevik, in one of the most undemocratic decisions of modern times, has also been forced to eat straight bananas.

http://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/publications/e-books/britains-decision

we won't be able to peddle our fear!

Brevik, in one of the most undemocratic decisions of modern times, has also been forced to eat straight bananas.

😀

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/may/09/eurotrash-is-back-for-one-night-only-on-the-eve-of-the-eu-referendum

[quote=kimbers ]Bookies or pollsters?
> https://theconversation.com/brexit-campaign-is-doomed-if-bookmakers-are-right-again-57514
br />

bookies. they have money to lose.

pollsters just shrug their shoulder, mumble some excuse and carry on.

Had a thought earlier.

Those voting out - would you also vote out if you were from another member and they were having a referendum?

If so, that means what you want is actually the abolishment of the EU, not simply Britain's exit from it.

Then, given the countries of Europe would need many agreements with each other, you'd have to replace the EU with something else along the same lines. So what you actually want is EU reform. Which would surely be best achieved by staying in?

molgrips - Member

Had a thought earlier.

Those voting out - would you also vote out if you were from another member and they were having a referendum?

If you come from one of the poor EU nations why would you be so foolish to vote out when you can get free money and be fed by the wealthier nations? You would be a fool to vote out!

My irony filter exploded into a million tiny pieces earlier when I heard Iain Duncan Smith, the man/evil robot hybrid who bought you the bedroom tax, and the active persecution, and hounding of disabled people describe the EU - with a straight face - as 'a force for social injustice' 😯

So totally at odds with brave and courageous champions of social justice, equality, and a fairer society like himself, and the other fellow travellors on the more terrifyingly bonkers fringes of the Tory party

I have a question about the voting itself. Will it completely national, like this many voted pro and this many anti or will it be regional which is then tallied nationally? For eg say Staffordshire is anti that's one for anti with the other counties' counts counting as one towards the national vote.

It's not grouped regionally. One person, one vote, tallied for the UK.

I think the default answer for undecideds is remain. The question is will all the people who aren't arsed get out to vote to scupper the plans all the vehement supporters of exit.

Also, there's quite few signs going up in farmers fields supporting an exit vote. Somebody must be supplying them as they're all the same. Nobody's going to be putting up signs for remain.

molgrips - Member

Had a thought earlier.

Those voting out - would you also vote out if you were from another member and they were having a referendum?

If so, that means what you want is actually the abolishment of the EU, not simply Britain's exit from it.

Then, given the countries of Europe would need many agreements with each other, you'd have to replace the EU with something else along the same lines. So what you actually want is EU reform. Which would surely be best achieved by staying in?

Reform will not happen if we vote to remain. The EU is heading in one direction only.
Full steam ahead to complete undemocratic political union.
We had our "reform" in February.

sbob - Member

Full steam ahead to complete undemocratic political union.

i've heard this a few times, how the EU is un-democratic, i don't get it.

we get to vote for our MEP's, proportional system too (isn't it?), so it's arguably more democratic than our broken old FPTP...

ahwiles - Member

i've heard this a few times, how the EU is un-democratic, i don't get it.

we get to vote for our MEP's, proportional system too (isn't it?), so it's arguably more democratic than our broken old FPTP...

They're probably referring to the EU Commission I'd imagine.

Reform will not happen if we vote to remain. The EU is heading in one direction only

Hmm, you sound very certain. What do they say about certainties?

This is really pessimists vs optimists, isn't it? That's what it boils down to. Is Britain a nation of pessimists or not?

Forgive me if this has been covered, but, well it's 40+ pages long and I don't have the attention span for that.

To the best of the the collective wisdom of STW knowledge:

[b]are we required to register to vote for the EU referendum, over and above normal voter registration?[/b]

I've heard you do from loads of people, none really credible and I can't see how to actually register for it - both sides are blaming the other as being the "sneaky" one behind it.

http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum

are we required to register to vote for the EU referendum, over and above normal voter registration?

Hmm, you sound very certain.

Well it was the original aim of the project, is still the aim of the project, and is the direction we have been heading throughout the duration of the project.
We had our "reform" in February, we won't get owt else. Juncker thinks we've been given enough, too much in fact.

Mind you, he also thinks that the interests of a nation's populace should be ignored so we can push for further integration, and this is the President of the European Commission!

Leave, and rebuild the EU as we were originally sold it, or stay for full political and fiscal union of an ever expanding superstate.

I can only see those two options realistically.

Thanks Pies,

Lots of people posting this on FB

If you want to have your say at the EU Referendum, you must be registered to vote........

But only in isolation.

@kimbers 😀

Undemocratic - UK outvoted by euro-block countires just like eurovision really 🙂 plus the whole commission thing

@jekkyl spoke to some farming people in the Lake District lastvweek and they where very much Leave, thry also said if farmers where more confident a futur government would match subsidies many more would be strongly leave

@globalti nothing more racist that EU freedom of movement as it discriminates against thise from Africa, Asia, Middle East and Americas

Leave, and rebuild the EU as we were originally sold it, or stay for full political and fiscal union of an ever expanding superstate.

I think that members are beginning to realise what might happen with 'ever closer integration'. We had the euro crisis then we had the refugee crisis. Britain's not alone in getting annoyed with it, nor are British citizens.

Nothing stays still in the world.

globalti nothing more racist that EU freedom of movement as it discriminates against thise from Africa, Asia, Middle East and Americas

Hardly. You are free to move regardless of your race.

But can you realistically see a third imbetween option to the two I mentioned?

It's a broad generalisation, but the factions that seem to be acting to exit are the right wing of the Tory party and UKIP.

I know you can quote exceptions , but broadly speaking it is people who still see the UK as a sovereign world class power and would like to turn the clock back to "the good old days".

For me, I can't see or understand why these people think we would be better off outside of the EU. The world has moved on and economic and social /political unity is what we need for long term stability.

No brainier , stay in.

economic and social /political unity is what we need for long term stability.

Tell that to Greece.
Do you honestly believe the Euro has been a success? 😯

Do you honestly believe the Euro has been a success?

What was done with the Euro was clearly a balls up.

The concept of a single currency - may not necessarily be a bad idea because of this particular balls up. But it might be.

Economic union doesn't have to mean single currency.

Baby/bathwater scenario.

Until the referendum is over there will be all sorts of arguments and counter arguments including the scaremongering on both sides about in or out.

I'm just not capable of deciding how we might be better off in or out by using a spreadsheet and trying to predict what the future holds.

It's more of a political decision in terms of whether we should remain in Europe and try to shape our future in a large collective.

Or we can believe that we will be better off and have more bargaining power as a very small nation competing individually.

Bottom line for me, I can't see myself aligning with the right wing of the Tories, UKIP and the British class system that supports the House of Lords and society of the priiviledged few.

I' m a left wing(ish) Labour / Plaid Cmyru / Green type person.

Should be interesting to see how this goes, but I'm fed up of it on the news each night with each side proclaiming doom and gloom etc.

It's more of a political decision in terms of whether we should remain in Europe and try to shape our future in a large collective.

Or we can believe that we will be better off and have more bargaining power as a very small nation competing individually.

Agree - except we're not a 'very small' nation by any measure.

Ok, small nation then, not as much influence as we might like to believe we have.

For me it is not about the issues of today that we're getting bogged down debating that should decide this. I believe the ultimate goal of the EU is to move towards a USofE. It has to be. You'd be naieve to think otherwise. The recent migrant and economic crisis of recent years and the Greece issue has just highlighted how the EU in its current format of 27 disparate nations all pulling in different directions, is ineffective and cannot continue without significant and fundamental change. That change can only be to backtrack, clearly not really an option, or move closer towards the USofE.

So the question you really want to be asking yourself is not do you want to be part of the EU, more a case of do you want to be a state within a USofE? If you don't want to be a state in the USofE then we might as well get out now and get on with the job of carving out our own place in the world outside of the EU. No point in being in the EU if we don't want to be part of the USofE. Cameron's thing of opting out of the 'ever closer union' is a nonsense. Our worst case scenario would be to be part of the EU while the rest of the EU integrated further and we would be marginalised in the EU but still shackled to it.

I personally think we would do perfectly well outside of the EU. It would be a bit turbulent and uncertain for a few years as we transitioned, but we'd be masters of our own destiny, not tied down and constrained by the EU and would easily be able to get on in the world. Why tie ourselves down to one union of 27 nations (or however many there are these days) when we can deal better and more effectively with the rest of the world. Our trading future lies outside of the EU, not within it, so lets crack on. The EU has never failed to demonstrate it is a slow cumbersome leviathan incapable of making quick and decisive decisions. Hardly a great foundation for the modern fast moving digital fluid world we live in.

We'd still be active members of NATO and the UN and would still be close friends and allies with our European neighbours. Our intelligence services would still work closely together. We've never fitted in with our European neighbours. We're just so different. They had alot more respect for us when we did our own thing Hated us, but respected us. Now they just hate us. Being tied down in a big complicated and cumbersome thing like the EU is not really our style. We lead from the front and we can't do that within the EU - we can't influence the EU on big issues. It just moves too slowly for us - I don't think we have ever influenced the EU have we?

What ties do we have to the EU that are hindering our success as a nation? I mean, specifically?

Ok, small nation then, not as much influence as we might like to believe we have.

Just outside the top 10% in size and the 5th biggest economy. We're not small!

Has anyone covered Brexit leading to Scotland remaining in EU and rUK out?
Surely the SNP are hoping for an out vote so they can force another referendum on Scotland leaving the UK?

I don't think we have ever influenced the EU have we?

Leave, and rebuild the EU as we were originally sold it, or stay for full political and fiscal union of an ever expanding superstate.

Well the only thing that IS certain is that neither of these are going to happen.

You are correct on some issues, however - eg, we did not have our reform moment - sorry Dave you have massively oversold that one - but we did secure certain (and important) aspects of our membership eg, we would not be part of greater political and fiscal union, the folly that is the euro, Schengen etc. So it is clear that we ARE NOT going to be part of full political and fiscal union. Cross that one out.

That being said, for certain countries this union is unavoidable for as long as they want to keep a single currency. The only questions are (1) do they and (2) who will be involved. We have no say in this process, nor should we.

So we cannot leave and reform - cross that one out too. The only issue (but not the one we are voting on) is what is the nature of the relationship that we and other non-Euro members want to have with the rest of the EU. But it is a mirage to think this is option one.

On success:

The European Union - largely but not exclusively an obvious YES

The Euro - an obvious NO. Poorly designed, poorly executed and a disaster for the countries involved especially the young and low-skilled in peripheral countries

The two ARE NOT the same things however - HTH

With other countries seemjng to want integration without ever closer integration, we could have a two-tier EU. Like we already have, really.

Or even three (as before)

Core Northern states (rel strong, rel integrated, economically strong, led by Germany)

Core periphery states (rel weak, less integrated, led by France, foolishly clinging to Euro2)

The rest including us