I can't imagine her really going for hard brexit unless she really is a lunatic.
I couldn't disgree more. Yes, there is probably only a minority of people who would want a "hard Brexit", but this is exactly the minority of people she wants/needs to win the votes of. Remember, the referendum is done… from now on she only needs the votes of a substantial manority of those who'll get out and vote at the next GE. There is no need to chase a policy that the majority of people want, if a huge chunk of that majority would never vote for her under a Tory ticket anyway.
As for the long term economic impact? Well, the damning of warnings as "Project Fear" probably means she has less to fear there than traditional "It's the economy stupid" political wisdom suggests. Everything has changed (at least for now) and people what to feel good, and don't believe experts that don't say what they want to hear.
[quote=chewkw ]I think you need to be more inventive with the way you describe people as racists just because they have voted for Brexit or Tories.
You'll have to point out to me where I did that. I didn't even imply it. What I was saying is something completely different.
I can except that a depressingly high percentage of the country are racist morons, I just can't accept ruining my country on the back of advisory referendum.
I can't see how people can't see that.
Many people do, and don't care, because they think of "business" as "them", rather than all of us!
I couldn't disgree more.
This. And... she has to enter negotiations on the basis that a hard brexit is just fine. Regardless of whether it is or not.
Mays's ratings aren't going to fall until the press turn on her, cant see the Murdoch rags having a go, god knows what the Mail will do.
Which of these referendums would pass in the current climate?
Hanging.
Corporal punishment in schools.
Ban gays.
Ban mosques.
National service.
I'm sure hanging would go through no problem.
Yes, there is probably only a minority of people who would want a "hard Brexit", but this is exactly the minority of people she wants/needs to win the votes of
You can't win elections with a ****ed economy. That's a golden rule. If people aren't doing well they'll want change, regardless.
Read my posts on this page that argue why the "Golden Rule" doesn't necessarily apply at the moment.
I am an alien.molgrips - Member
You really are from another planet Chewkw
As much as you are good at hiding behind words, your intention is as clear as the pages in the book for all to read.aracer - Member
You'll have to point out to me where I did that. I didn't even imply it. What I was saying is something completely different.
Can I vote twice for hanging? To make twice as likely it will happen?zippykona - Member
Which of these referendums would pass in the current climate?I'm sure hanging would go through no problem.
We'll see, Kelvin.
Regardless of it's truth, I [s]suspect[/s] hope that enough politicans, even Tories, will think of it as true for the economics of hard brexit to become an issue.
Ultimately referenda are not compatible with a representative democracy - they undermine our parliament, which while imperfect, is probably pretty decent in the scheme of things.
Restore British democracy - let the MPs decide.
teamhurtmore - Member
keep the racists onside - tick
keep the nats offside and kill labour - tick
Tories keep power for the foreseeable...She's no fool is she!!!
Nothing last forever but for now I support PM May.
molgrips - Member
We'll see, Kelvin.Regardless of it's truth, I suspect hope that enough politicans, even Tories, will think of it as true for the economics of hard brexit to become an issue.
The day the politicians do that is the day we see the death of Western democracy.
igm plus 1
Chewk , which other ones would you vote for?
The day the politicians do that is the day we see the death of Western democracy.
Rubbish.
igm - Member
Ultimately referenda are not compatible with a representative democracy - they undermine our parliament, which while imperfect, is probably pretty decent in the scheme of things.Restore British democracy - let the MPs decide.
The referendum is the fundamental of democracy that is above the rules of the land. You may delay it with all your might but you Cannot prevent it.
Even the British parliament MUST bow to the referendum.
In fact all Western democratic govts MUST bow to referendum as it is the easiest form of seeing democracy in action.
You do not see referendum in action everyday but if there is one then it must be damn important.
The day the politicians do that is the day we see the death of Western democracy.
Already turned up its toes if your take democracy as meaning the belief in freedom and equality between people rather than mob rule unless of course you believe that something akin to turkeys being duped into voting for Christmas is a proper expression of the democratic will of the majority of turkeys or a decision that no sensible turkey having all of the facts about Christmas to hand would have made.
The referendum is the fundamental of democracy that is above the rules of the land.
It really really really really isn't. Honestly.
if your take democracy as meaning the belief in freedom and equality between people
To be fair - that's never been any definition of the word.
The referendum is the fundamental of democracy that is above the rules of the land. You may delay it with all your might but you Cannot prevent it.Even the British parliament MUST bow to the referendum.
Nope.
Read the Referendum Act 2015 [url= http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/pdfs/ukpga_20150036_en.pdf ]here[/url] and tell me where there is a clear and definite plan as to what happens in the event of either majority.
Also, 51.8% of the vote between two choices would not return an absolute mandate. It's a very, very slim margin.
In fact all Western democratic govts MUST bow to referendum as it is the easiest form of seeing democracy in action.
Go and read up on how a parliamentary democracy works.
zippykona - Member
Chewk , which other ones would you vote for?
Hanging. - Yes, twice.
Corporal punishment in schools. - Depends. Depends on who the teacher is.
[s]Ban [/s]gays. - What's the big deal? We have many 3rd gender in my part of the world so not an issue at all.
Ban mosques. - In certain areas ban for practical reason.
National service. - I am not sure because I like it while others don't.
FTFY.PJM1974 - Member
Go and read up on how a [s]parliamentary [/s]democracy work
Yes, you have parliamentary democracy in the UK but that is just a subset of Democracy.
Nipper99 - Member
Already turned up its toes if your take democracy as meaning the belief in freedom and equality between people rather than mob rule unless of course you believe that something akin to turkeys being duped into voting for Christmas is a proper expression of the democratic will of the majority of turkeys or a decision that no sensible turkey having all of the facts about Christmas to hand would have made.
That's why I normally say that with Western [b]Demon[/b]cracy you have the pretense to be good side.
In fact it can be both ... just like the West rejecting the dictatorship of certain nations. If they have good dictators life will be good but if not worst. Same applies to [b]Demon[/b]cracy as there is no guarantee you have a good one.
Chewk, I suggest you read up on Cleon and the fall of the Athenian democracy, or read up on women's votes in swtizerlanf to understand why referendums are really stupid ideas.
Tories keep power for the foreseeable...She's no fool is she!!!
No, not if power at the expense of the country is your objective.
The referendum is the fundamental of democracy that is above the rules of the land. You may delay it with all your might but you Cannot prevent it.Even the British parliament MUST bow to the referendum.
Says the man who a few hours ago was suggesting that the best way to deal with Sturgeon was to deny any calls for a referendum. 😕
In fact all Western democratic govts MUST bow to referendum as it is the easiest form of seeing democracy in action.
Depends what you think "democracy" means.
Personally speaking, I don't think democracy means that the majority get to do what ever they want with no regard for any minority view.
What we have at the moment is, I believe, [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy ]Ochlocracy[/url] - a democracy spoiled by demagoguery.
Sturgeon doing what she does best which is use every opportunity to push the Independence agenda, that's fair enough as thats all the SNP care about. She knows how to parade for the Scottish electorate
@kimbers backbench Tories can't cut out employment rights from the Appeal Bill unless the Labour Party allow them to do so which seems very unlikely. Thanks for tariff summary. Germany also faces approx £4bn extra budget contributions unless the EU is to cut spending massively, Obviously exporters will try and pass costs into customers but VW etc will lose their price advantage vs Japan, Korea and US car makers
Re other posts here I see no reason I should not be as equally positive as Remainers here are trying to be negative. We have a huge Economic opportunity to refocus away from a stagnant Europe. In my view its essential we do so and Brexit helps to move that along
Pigface its been well covered in France the huge effort the Belgians have made to reinforce their border and return to France any migrants they find have crossed from Calais trying to find another Channel crossing. The vast majority of Calais Jungle residents will get asylum in France or if they fail be deported.
Ultimately referenda are not compatible with a representative democracy - they undermine our parliament, which while imperfect, is probably pretty decent in the scheme of things.Restore British democracy - let the MPs decide.
Unfortunately most of the populace get their facts from, ahem, questionable sources..
I know some folks who are, supposedly, bright & informed but never bothered once to fact check ANYTHING during the whole Referendum. They'd made their minds up long ago. In fact when I tackled them on some of the "facts" being toted during the Referendum quite often they just went "Oh, I didn't know that....."
They weren't bothered in the slightest that both sides were telling lies & exaggerating scenarios to feed into whatever mindset they were aiming for.
Feking depressing really.
I hope to God there's never another.
Ultimately referenda are not compatible with a representative democracy - they undermine our parliament, which while imperfect, is probably pretty decent in the scheme of things.
Restore British democracy - let the MPs decide.
IGM if I posted such a thing I'd be accused of being a rightwing nut job keeping power with the elite.
I stand by statement that with a level playing field, equal campaign rescources and budget and full access to the Civil Service and official data the Leave Campaign would have won very comfortably. It woukd have helped too if Corbyn had held firm to his principals, shown leadership and Labour had campaigned for Leave.
As it was the "little people" defeated the combined might of the UK and International political elite. We WILL see the same throughout Europe in the next 12 months
Yes, coz it just so silly to have another referendum after the people voted to remain in the UK. I mean why not have daily referendum eh?GrahamS - Member
Even the British parliament MUST bow to the referendum.
Says the man who a few hours ago was suggesting that the best way to deal with Sturgeon was to deny any calls for a referendum.
That will always be the case in [b]demon[/b]cracy - devil in the details in trying to derail the whole concept and for some it is only democracy if they win.Depends what you think "democracy" means.Personally speaking, I don't think democracy means that the majority get to do what ever they want with no regard for any minority view.
I have democracy. Me.
See, told you. [b]Demon[/b]cracy is only good when the winners take all. Why the West keeps insisting they have the best system in Demon-cracy I don't know and they even want to intervene in others' affairs in the name of Demon-cracy.mrmo - Member
Chewk, I suggest you read up on Cleon and the fall of the Athenian democracy, or read up on women's votes in swtizerlanf to understand why referendums are really stupid ideas.
backbench Tories can't cut out employment rights from the Appeal Bill unless the Labour Party allow them to do so
But May can't pass it if she doesn't have her backbenchers onside.....
So we'd have no laws ??! Anarchy in the UK
Remainers here are trying to be negative.
What a poisonous phrase. I'm not TRYING to be negative - things just look bad! You can't simply BLAME me for that. What do you want me to do, simply ignore the evidence? Forget all the bad things I've found out?
We have a huge Economic opportunity to refocus away from a stagnant Europe.
If that were the case, if that had been carefully planned and anticipated and worked towards, then fine - I'd just be depressed. But it hasn't! The WAY this has been handled is absolutely attrocious, from a pure competency point of view.
And you are not able to argue otherwise beyond simply telling us it'll be fine. Which is pathetic as an argument. And when challenged, you go quiet.
What is Kimbers going to do for money now?
Where are Delphi going to send their injectors?
the "little people" defeated the combined might of the UK and International political elite. We WILL see the same throughout Europe in the next 12 months
Ah ha ! Take that Illuminati !!
PJM1974 - Member
Read the Referendum Act 2015 here and tell me where there is a clear and definite plan as to what happens in the event of either majority.Also, 51.8% of the vote between two choices would not return an absolute mandate. It's a very, very slim margin.
That is more than enough to win the referendum.
The people did not vote for remain.
No, not if power at the expense of the country is your objective.
she has picked up tips from Sturgeon
What is Kimbers going to do for money now
I was thinking of busking for reagents, 😉
actually had an email today from our largest supplier saying that they would be revising their prices from November, due to the weak £ 🙁
We have a huge Economic opportunity to refocus away from a stagnant Europe.
Define stagnant?
I want Jam to reassure me that scientific funding will be met from the UK Government. And how he knows, since no-one else does.
If that were the case, if that had been carefully planned and anticipated and worked towards, then fine - I'd just be depressed. But it hasn't! The WAY this has been handled is absolutely attrocious, from a pure competency point of view.And you are not able to argue otherwise beyond simply telling us it'll be fine. Which is pathetic as an argument. And when challenged, you go quiet.
It's a bloody shambles..
[img] 
[/img]
That's what you have previously with the mob rule from EU bureaucrats now we have democracy.GrahamS - Member
What we have at the moment is, I believe, Ochlocracy - a democracy spoiled by demagoguery.
If you loose and it is mob rule but if you win you will sing the praise of "democracy" oh lord.
You will get all your money and perhaps more. Happy? Just don't keep chucking out mickey mouse research if that helps.molgrips - Member
I want Jam to reassure me that scientific funding will be met from the UK Government. And how he knows, since no-one else does.
Yes, coz it just so silly to have another referendum after the people voted to remain in the UK.
A major deciding factor at the time of indyref was the argument that Independent Scotland would be out of the EU and the only way to stay in the EU was to stay part of the UK.
Many of the people of Scotland cast their vote so they could stay in the EU, just as they overwhelmingly did in the EU referendum.
That will always be the case in demoncracy - devil in the details in trying to derail the whole concept and for some it is only democracy if they win.I have democracy. Me.
As usual I have now completely lost track of what point(s) you were trying to make amongst the nonsense and non sequiturs.
You will get all your money and perhaps more. Happy?
As an answer.....thats, just, really a bit sh1t..
she has picked up tips from Sturgeon
Everything for you is about Sturgeon. Have you got a crush?
Restore British democracy - let the MPs decide.
As well known right wing nutter Tony Benn said, it's not within the powers of an MP to give away powers that are constitutionally lent to them by the populace, and that they have to hand back at then end of their term intact.
GrahamS - Member
A major deciding factor at the time of indyref was the argument that Independent Scotland would be out of the EU and the only way to stay in the EU was to stay part of the UK.Many of the people of Scotland cast their vote so they could stay in the EU, just as they overwhelmingly did in the EU referendum.
They voted to remain part of UK regardless of where UK is heading.
If they did not trust UK then they would have voted Out. They don't have to stick around to see where UK is heading.
Nope, they Shall Not get another referendum for at least one generation. They can cast their vote in another generations or two later if SNP is still around that is. Nothing they can do about it now.
Definitely Not to give another referendum. What can they do? Nothing.
That's what you have previously with the mob rule from EU bureaucrats now we have democracy.
You loose and it is mob rule but if you win you will sing the praise of "democracy" oh lord.
I fail to see how you can think of EU bureaucrats as mob rule?
Read the wiki page on Ochlocracy I posted. It defines it as [i]democracy ("rule of the people") spoiled by demagoguery, "tyranny of the majority", and the rule of passion over reason[/i]
Drill further into [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue ]demagoguery[/url] and read the section:
[b]The methods of demagogues[/b]:
• Scapegoating
• Fearmongering
• Lying
• Emotional oratory and personal magnetism
• Accusing opponents of weakness and disloyalty
• Violence and physical intimidation
• Personal insults and ridicule
• Folksy posturing
• Gross oversimplification
• Attacking the news media
I think that pretty much covers every aspect of Brexit! The only thing we haven't seen yet is physical violence but give it time (that's why newspapers saying that Remainers are traitors who must be punished is so worrying!)