[i]It's pathetic for people to now claim that they didn't know what they were voting for. It was blindingly obvious that the five main pillars of Brexshit were BS and that the base case has to be hard Brexshit by design. What planet were the mind changers on?!?![/i]
When I was younger I thought that some people lacked the ability to actually think (and consider scenarios). Now I'm older I've realise that it's actually MOST people...
Nissan hasn't decided anything yet. More meaningless words.
I suspect they're waiting to see if some sanity finally makes a welcome intrusion into proceedings
The vote took place with knowledge that in essence this mean Hard Brexshit.
Bullshit.
Leave campaigners were continuously asked 'what form Brexit would take' and 'what form our new trading relationship with Europe would take' on the run up to the vote, and dodged around with different conflicting vague non answers. Most still can't give you a straight answer months after the vote, and those that do give different answers. The idea that people knew the form Brexit would take when they voted just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. Lots of people voted to Leave without sharing the same idea of how that would pan out, there was/is no shared vision or plan.
It is a non issue for non-EU immigrants because they already expect tougher rules for them.
Many people voted because they saw the different rules for EU and non-EU migrants as unfair, and you can see their point. Those that played on that, and suggested that a Leave vote would open up immigration channels for non-EU migrants, probably deserve the crown of biggest bullshitters of the whole referendum campaign. You know this won't happen, I know this won't happen, but many were convinced otherwise. Very depressing.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-16/could-the-imperial-system-make-a-comeback-in-britain/7915094
At Shepherd's Bush market in London, a greengrocer is flirting with the law.It is selling potatoes by the pound and onions by the ounce.
"It's just easier to understand," owner Sylvia Fletcher explains.
"People here don't realise how much they're getting for a kilo."
I think you could say the same of pounds and ounces -
Unit Abbreviation As Pounds As Kilos Notes
grain gr 1/7000 0.0000648kg As troy grain - introduced by Elizabeth I
dram dr 1/256 0.001772kg Defined as 1/16th of an ounce previously known as the "part"
ounce oz 1/16 0.0283kg Commonly used in US and UK recipes
pound lb 1 0.45359237kg Base unit of avoirdupois system
stone st 14 6.35kg Not used in the US customary system
quarter qtr 28 12.70kg Equivalent of 2 stone or a quarter of a hundredweight
hundredweight cwt 112 50.80kg Defined as 8 stone in the British Imperial system
ton t 2240 1016kg Known as the long ton to differentiate from the US short ton
A few miles away, at one of the world's oldest wine shops, the sentiment is similar.Simon Berry, from Berry Brothers & Rudd claimed the "Brussels bureaucrats" of the European Union had thwarted his dreams of selling champagne in a pint bottle.
"It's the perfect size for sharing," he exclaimed.
"But I could, quite literally, be arrested for selling an imperial pint of champagne".
Me thinks he is protesting too much there, could he not just sell 500ml? How does the difference make it an impossible product to sell.
Next up hanging, gas lights and children sweeping chimneys, Brexit has truly let them all out.
Well when you have had a hard day down the jobcentre competing with immigrant workers for zero hour contracts, relaxing with your mates over "half a litre" (whatever that is) of Bolly just isn't going to make you feel British enough is it?Me thinks he is protesting too much there, could he not just sell 500ml?
You can keep your pints anyway. Once those trade deals start rolling in, it's going to be magnums all round. I've already got myself a Sabre. Huzzah!
Bullshit.Leave campaigners were continuously asked 'what form Brexit would take' and 'what form our new trading relationship with Europe would take' on the run up to the vote, and dodged around with different conflicting vague non answers. Most still can't give you a straight answer months after the vote, and those that do give different answers. The idea that people knew the form Brexit would take when they voted just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. Lots of people voted to Leave without sharing the same idea of how that would pan out, there was/is no shared vision or plan.
Bullshit - but mainly because you are making the flawed assumptions that you should look to the BSers for any answers or truths. That is a fallacy. The leave campaigners were the last ones to ask about anything we know that. But a simple understanding of the the single market and what it involves can only lead to one conclusion. It's remainers who are as guilty as the BSers in talking about soft Brexit - perhaps we only have ourselves to blame. But the one thing that was never in the table was soft Brexit and to pretend otherwise is/was disingenuous
Marr made exactly that poiin to Clegg and the Narcissist yesterday.
Problem is a xenophobic attitude is easier to use in swaying voters than it is in actually defining policy...so whilst the xenophobic vote won, now they're stuck trying to make polices out of it that would actually be positive for the country in terms of economics etc...
But keeping us in the single market was in the Tory manifesto along with the referendum pledge.... So it's obvious we were voting for a soft Brexit
But keeping us in the single market was vs Tory manifesto along with the referendum pledge.... So it's obvious we were voting for a soft Brexit
It's almost as though David Cameron didn't think this through before launching us on this course.
Who was asking about brain drain?
Lots of researchers in my institue are planning to return to the EU, partly because they no longer feel as welcome in the UK, partly because there's nothing to plug the EU research funding gap.
Senior management are getting quite worried
Reports this morning that Hammond is dragging his feet on Brexit.
Me thinks he is protesting too much there, could he not just sell 500ml? How does the difference make it an impossible product to sell.
He could easily call it a "1 pint bottle" as long as it says "568ml" on it somewhere. The guy is a massive **** considering I'm willing to bet that almost all of his stock comes from abroad and the majority from the EU. Good luck getting EU wine makers to create a special British bottle; in most areas they're even resistant to good ideas like getting rid of cork.
But keeping us in the single market was in the Tory manifesto along with the referendum pledge.... So it's obvious we were voting for a soft Brexit
No, all that means is that Dave never imagined that he would lose.
cchris2lou - Member
Reports this morning that Hammond is dragging his feet on Brexit.
Nah the BSers are just trying to set him up as a fall guy foe the negotiations failing to deliver, he's probably just got the temerity to call them out on their fantasies for what a Brexit will look like and mean for the country.
He'll resign soon enough, whilst Davies and Fox keep their jobs and continue flushing our prospects down the loo. 😯
On Hammond:
[i]Another source told the paper: “He is arguing from a very Treasury point of view. He is arguing like an accountant seeing the risk of everything rather than the opportunity.”[/i]
Come on Phil, its only money. Stop undermining the will of the people. Besides, who can put a price on Sovereignty?
It's OK Theresa has a plan, for the very rich....
I'm not sure how Europe are going to agree to this tho? Sounds like we'd be getting a lot of cake.
Hammond is dragging his feet on Brexit.
And he's not even a real hamster.
He is arguing like an accountant
imagine that - the Chancellor of the Exchequer arguing like an accountant.
string him up! He's doing this country down with his strange obsession with numbers 😡
Come on Phil, its only money. Stop undermining the will of the people. Besides, who can put a price on Sovereignty?
We might be poorer but we are fffffrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
But a simple understanding of the the single market and what it involves can only lead to one conclusion.
Is that conclusion that there are countries in the single market that are not in the EU?
Therefore a vote to leave the EU may or may not be also seen as a vote to leave the Single Market, depending on what it is you are after?
And what about the customs union? Are you going to claim clarity about what we voted for there?
The idea that the vote somehow gives us one clear ahead is bogus. Only one vote was cast… to leave the EU.
Hammond is the only member of the present government that doesn't come across as completely and utterly unhinged. Its almost as if he's engaged with actual reality, rather than a huge steaming pile of flag-waving, ideological, cloud-cuckooland bullshit
They'll be getting rid of him pretty sharpish, I'm sure
Besides, who can put a price on Sovereignty?
Scottish government circa 1706?
The problem is still that the tories have painted themselves into a corner setting a lot of requirements or restrictions without bothering to negotiate. Either they'll have to admit they screwed up or they'll have to potentially take actions harmful to the country to save face. I'm guessing they'll do the latter; force the entire UK to fall on its collective sword rather than say "ooops".
BTW, what are the government blithering on about with regards to "getting control of the UK's borders" given two things.
1, The EU says it doesn't give access to the single market without free movement of labour. Even the Swiss give EU nationals up to a year to find a job without too much drama.
2, The UK is the only EU country (that I know of) with proper border controls now. Given #1 (obviously the Brexiteers are expecting the EU to buckle on that), how much more control could the UK reasonably have?
Given Theresa May's abject failure to meet her party's manifesto pledges on migration during her time as Home Secretary, not much.how much more control could the UK reasonably have?
May has played this perfectly so far. Give EU a simple hard Brexit or full access choice. By middle
of next year the EU is going to be in full on crises mode with significant economic dip. They can make their choice thereafter.
As I posted in the Scotish thread Ireland has out together an emergency fund to help
farmers in the wake of the £/€ move and has called a crises summit warning of the economic damage to Ireland of Brexit. Also as noted elsewhere here and widely reported in the press the "architect" of the euro says it cannot survive in it's current form (ie in terms of members, regulation, structure) and that it was doomed from the moment Greece was "bailed out" in 2008
how much more control could the UK reasonably have?
There are 268,000 EU citizens coming to this country every year through our "uncontrolled border".
Meanwhile our carefully controlled border for non-EU migrants lets in 282,000.
([url= https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics ]Sauce[/url])
And why is all that good for the UK Jambalaya?
😯May has played this perfectly so far.
May has played this perfectly so far. Give EU a simple hard Brexit or full access choice.
Do you think that's her goal jamba? Full access without freedom of movement, or bust. If so then why not just say that?
[i]Hammond is the only member of the present government that doesn't come across as completely and utterly unhinged. Its almost as if he's engaged with actual reality, rather than a huge steaming pile of flag-waving, ideological, cloud-cuckooland bullshit[/i]
It's probably because he's one of the few with an actual background in business, and at a senior (and owner) level.
Also he's charged with keeping the countries' economy out of disarray, so anything that could cause uncertainty is a problem.
May has played this perfectly so far. Give EU a simple hard Brexit or full access choice.
except May is now considering paying billions into the EU budget to keep passporting in the city
and hard brexit is ****g madness, look what fear of it is doing to the £
trade is interconnected, the concept of a low currency being good for exports works if its all made here, but thats not the case at all- the world has changed, just another example of brexiteers living in the past....
and add to that that WTO tarrifs could be applied 5 times on some items that we make !!
[img] 
[/img]
There is zero chance of access to the single market without freedom of movement.
May is playing to her support - not the good of the country.
Didn't you get the memo from Priti Patel?Full access without freedom of movement, or bust. If so then why not just say that?
[i]“If I were to sit down and play poker with you this morning, I’m not going to show you my cards before we even start playing the game,” she told BBC1’s Andrew Marr Show.[/i]
Hammond is probably not wearing his fedora and dark glasses to cabinet meetings.
“If I were to sit down and play poker with you this morning,"
Surely Russian Roulette would have made a better analogy
[img] 
[/img]
UK is not North Korea, what cards are they hiding?
I watched Question Time (from earlier in the week) last night and one thing (about Brexit) really struck me.
They were all talking about how it's hard to negotiate when you're having to talk in public about options etc, which is correct. But few people seem to understand that once we trigger Article 50 that it isn't really a negotiation, as on one side we've the UK wanting what is best for the UK and on the other side we've 27 countries plus EU 'management' wanting what's best for EACH.
All that will occur is 24 months of talking (and frustration) and the only agreements will be where the UK just 'bends' over. Pretty much nothing will be agreed and we'll have had 2 years worth of economic chaos followed by a period downturn.
Even Jamba realises that there'll be a downturn, and do I remember even him thinking it'll be a minimum of 5 years?
UK is not North Korea, what cards are they hiding?
Tesco Clubcard. Got enough points to stock up on emergency Marmite. Don't want to lose that one.
It doesn't surprise me that tories think that they are just playing a game, they are giving far greater importance to internal politics and idiotic soundbites than they are to the actual outcome for the country.
May was praise for putting the 3 buffoons in charge of brexit, as if tory infighting was more important than the country.
There are incredibly important negotiations to go ahead, it isn't a game of poker, the options are clear to everyone, playing some stupid bluff (that their EU counterparts can see coming a mile off) because they think its a game and do not realise the importance is going to **** the nation for generations.
Graham hard Brexit is my preferred option, clean simple just get on with it. We will donexcellently in such a scenario and still buy & sell plenty with Europe. People forget how low WTO tariffs are on most goods
Non EU migrants are predominantly highly paid / skilled business people and students paying premium Uni fees.
cchris Europe imploding will not be good for us but it means we must break our link / straightjacket with them before its too late. We must focus globally
No one here will be surprised to hear that I think Hammond is a lightweight, one of the weakest Ministers. We'll see what he's got in the Autumn statement
Kimbers - very interesting graphic. It shows how companies are using each other across the EU to add value. If we had to heat treat our own injectors we'd have to set up a plant to do it, and somehow get the skills and experience, which would divert money away from manufacturing the injectors to begin with. Likewise the German company.
It's no different to companies specialising within a country - it allows each company to be better at the thing in which they specialise. The huge benefit of free trade within the EU is it allows us to function *in business terms* as one very large country. So that the world isn't dominated by the other large >500m people countries who can mobilies huge economies of scale and specialisations, when a country of 70m could not.
Effectively in business terms we're seceding from a large country to make a much smaller one. Not that different to Scotland leaving the UK. Which ISTR Jamba was against?
What the 2 years of negotiations will look like is those 3 bell ends going to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then going back to Brussels with a list of 'demands', to be told quite clearly to * off, scuttling back, then the EU says "if you want access to the single market, here's the deal. Take it or ****ing leave it!"
Christ only knows what our economy will look like by that point
What does freedom of movement mean?
Does it mean total access to our benefit and health system or just freedom to work?
I'd imagine the latter, but the former requires some thought. Does the EU have anything to say on the matter?
