[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Northwind - Member
And every other international in the country is going to be demanding the same. Blindin.

Yes, they will benefit a lot if they want to be competitive.

Therefore, I suggest they all come for a negotiation who knows they will ALL win a subsidy from us if they build their factories/plants/HQ etc here.

Let's negotiate money.

So short story is the UK will be a less competitive place after the EU exit but that's OK as we will be able to give state aid. Can anyone please explain how this is anything but a bad deal???

Presumably Mother Theresa promised Nissan the money that the NHS thought they were going to get.

Quick someone photoshop that bus - let's give it to Nissan instead

What have Nissan been offered exactly? The FT is rather vague on the topic this morning...

Ghosn has been put on the guest list for the Chevening bunga bunga parties?

Yeah can they keep it secret?
Other car manufacturers will want in, who owns jaguar landrover? Mini and Rolls Royce are owned by BMW etc, they are all gonna be after their taxpayer subsidies too

I'm guessing some sort of tax break, if May can't keep us in the single market

Two options I can see:
May let them in on the secret
They're getting given a bung (a tax break presumably, but it amounts to much the same thing as the government bribing them with public money).

Which do you think is more likely?

So given that EU law presently prevents illegal state subsidy, and that once we're out thats exactly what we're going to have to do to keep these companies from buggering off, that should provide the EU with even further motivation to cut us a really, really, really good deal.

Someone cynical might assume that its almost as if nobody had thought this through at all? Which can't possibly be true, because for this not to occur to you, you'd have to be a complete ****ing numbskull!

Personally I have no idea.

But I doubt I will be able to get too outraged by this - governments have been doing this for years under the guise of 'regional policy'.

Other car manufacturers will want in, who owns jaguar landrover?

Tata, same as Tetley Tea and Tata Steel,

Slightly amusing that for many years the British used India, and now India are going to demand money....

This is a market on our doorstep, ready for further exploitation by British firms. The membership fee seems rather small for all that access. Why are we so determined to turn our back on it?

So says Boris Johnson.

Bojo the narcissist exposed - kind of amusing, but in reality simply nauseous

Patel bloody smug on Marr this morning but sadly Marr also exposed Clegg too on his ideas. Marr was correct that soft Brexit is basically BS. The vote took place with knowledge that in essence this mean Hard Brexshit.

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It was obvious that Johnson's Leave campaigning was intended to succeed only in increasing his chances of becoming PM.

Now it looks ever more likely we will be cast out of the single market even lifelong europhobes like Hannan are looking increasingly panicked, did anyone see Redwood wearily repeating his mantra 'they need them us more than we need them' over and over on newsnight last week?

The utter lack of a plan for how to achieve Brexit and what it would mean for the economy shows that the senior leavers were either
A) in it only for ego, power and career: Johnson, Gove, Farage
B) ideologues stupid enough to believe that the EU would do anything to keep us in the single market :Hannan, Redwood*, Davies*, Fox*, Stuart
C) just really, really stupid: IDS, Leadsome,
(*cant decide if B or C)

who knows maybe the EU are just bluffing and after 2 years of inflation, governmental pralysis and stalled development, it'll all be fine, and we'll be allowed single market access with some caveats after all

I always think it ironic the Patel's family probably wouldn't be allowed into the UK under her views on controlling immigration. As hypocritical as Jambalaya.

It was a shame Marr didn't ask her what employment protection rights she wants to scrap.

When was that johnson quote made?

Bojo the narcissist exposed

So was he concealed up til now? Really? Did anyone ever have any doubts that he was acting purely out of self interest?

Patel's family and my Indian relations will have a far fairer chance of immigration into the UK post Brexit than before. May has made it clear NO employment rights will be changed under her Government. NONE. European nations are moving to the UK model as we have 5% unemployment and they have 10% with 25% amongst the young

Horatio all the money Wales / Cornwall get is our own money less a 45% haircut the EU keeps for itself.

Mike the UK is far more competitve today than it was 3 months ago due to the fall in the £.

Nissan I have seen no details on any offer, I doubt they pay very much if any Corporation Tax in the UK so nothing to offer them there. Development grant for new facilities possibly, that happens all the time and throughout Europe

May has made it clear NO employment rights will be changed under her Government. NONE.

Nothing is clear, it's just a statement from a political party who can't even stick to their own manifesto.

what Rich said.

Patel's parents weren't 'the brightest and most skilled'

Patel's family and my Indian relations will have a far fairer chance of immigration into the UK post Brexit than before.

LOL. So you're thinking that, given the amount of rhetoric over immigration controls, they're going to [i]relax[/i] for non-eu migration? From a PM personally responsible for tightening them already? Ho Ho Ho.

May has made it clear NO employment rights will be changed under her Government. NONE.

Phew. So that's sorted then. I had the idea she was refusing to give a running commentary on the negotiations. But apparently I was misinformed.

Given May is committed to reducing immigration to levels lower than non-EU immigration alone, it's going to get tougher for all potential immigrants, and I suspect EU migrants will still have an advantage over non-EU.

igm - Member
Given May is committed to reducing immigration to levels lower than non-EU immigration alone, it's going to get tougher for all potential immigrants, and I suspect EU migrants will still have an advantage over non-EU.

It is a non issue for non-EU immigrants because they already expect tougher rules for them.
They face such challenges regardless of where they travel to.

Point being the target is to reduce it, given the UK has low unemployment this will mean a skills shortage and with all this new manufacturing base that will appear by magic then it will probably require people to take 2-3 jobs 😉

Given the staffing crisis in the NHS and our ageing population, impeding immigration would be madness, but considering how brexishambles is being handled I don't hold out much hope.

mikewsmith - Member
Point being the target is to reduce it, given the UK has low unemployment this will mean a skills shortage and with all this new manufacturing base that will appear by magic then it will probably require people to take 2-3 jobs 😉

There will not be a skills shortage. Reasons being all my non-EU friends who are working in the UK are much more qualified than many of the EU/UK residents. Some are over qualified and were rejected purely because of that. Therefore, if you are referring to high end job there is no shortage but brain drain might be a problem for their home countries.

However, the difficulty is for non-EU migrants with lower skills or qualification, as this group is generally Not qualified for any requirements ALL over the world. But they will take all risks to reach here in the hope that that luck is with them. Just like few that I know who went into hiding for many years.

Therefore, depending on the type of factory works companies might be better off spending a bit more money investing in automation because the technology is already here. I suspect automation will intensify in the very near future to replace low skill works and to reduce cost.

Welcome to joined up thinking....
They want to reduce ALL immigration to the UK. So regardless of where you came from you won't be as welcome.

The Observor today is reporting what's been said in various busines pages already. That business leaders who have had meetings, to apparently be reassured, with the [s]bunch of clowns[/s] government ministers involved in Brexit negotiations, have come away seriously alarmed at what they're proposing.

The same phrase has been repeated many times...,

"They don't know what they're doing"

Given who we're talking about here, this is hardly going to come as a great shock to anyone

mikewsmith - Member
Welcome to joined up thinking....
They want to reduce ALL immigration to the UK. So regardless of where you came from you won't be as welcome.

Most that I know Do Not expect people to welcome them with open arms because that is Not a normal behaviour even for them at home, so they expect the same where ever they go.

binners - Member
The Observor today is reporting what's been said in various busines pages already. That business leaders who have had meetings, to apparently be reassured, with the bunch of clowns government ministers involved in Brexit negotiations, have come away seriously alarmed at what they're proposing.

Depending on the "various business" they are speculating most business just want to exploit workers, therefore when their ability to exploit is reduced the it is natural that they have to complain. Because the power now shift to the "workers".

What planet are you on?

You think that business leaders fear that a right wing tory administration in the process of withdrawing from the EU will lead to increased workers rights?

Want to talk us through that? Feel free to show your working out in the margins....

[quote=binners ]The same phrase has been repeated many times...,
"They don't know what they're doing"
Given who we're talking about here, this is hardly going to come as a great shock to anyone

It is a great shock to me. A great shock that it's taken business leaders this long to work that out.

Let me help you out here Chewkw.

May wants total immigration at about 50% of the current non-EU immigration.

So even if all EU immigration is banned, it's still going to be twice as hard as it was for non-EU migrants.

But all EU immigration isn't going to be banned. They might be on a level playing field with the non-EU types, but not banned.

So at a guess three times as hard for a non-EU migrant.

Then there are cultural issues.

(Generalisation warning)

Now a massive generalisation this, and I just want the best people I can have who as individuals can and do come from all over, but in my field I find German or Greek engineers think the same way UK ones do - not just about the problem but also the context - and they seem to interact in similar ways and share a highly irreverent, but never disrespectful sense of humour.
Americans don't, they tend to be more rigid in their thinking. Canadians are somewhere in between, they tend to get the sense of humour. Indians vary, with the best coping very well, but some only able to think in straight lines - not good for complex problems or the black humour of crisis situations. And this is true no matter how well qualified people are (certain PhDs have been very poor).

Now other fields will vary, but in my field at least, the EU migrant tends to have an advantage even if they are slightly less well qualified, because we are looking for people to work with us, not people to complete a set of tasks.

So the non-EU type, may be about to find things getting an awful lot harder.

igm - Member
Let me help you out here Chewkw.

However, I can assure you it is totally NON-issue for non-EU. They have all expect competition to be extremely tough so it is natural they will simply double their efforts. Try applying for a job in China or India.

(Generalisation warning)

Based on my observation the humour or jokes with colleagues at work for EU/UK people tends to be more "intellectual related" i.e. the humour usually relate to specific details of work or at least for my bureaucratic workmates. But for the non-EU their humour or jokes tends to be more emotional or non-work related.

and if we do go through with Brexit, there is no going back. After 40 years of putting up with the crap brussels would never have westminster back again.

So how ever bad it gets, so be it.

It was a decisive vote which gave a clear mandate:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-vote-regret-leave-margin-victory-2016-10

Of those surveyed in a poll commissioned by Open Britain, the successor to Britain Stronger in Europe, 59% of people wanted to stay in the single market, while 41% wanted to leave.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/15/brexit-cross-party-mps-renew-calls-for-parliamentary-scrutiny

#overwhelming mandate
#divisive majority

much like the party in charge

It's pathetic for people to now claim that they didn't know what they were voting for. It was blindingly obvious that the five main pillars of Brexshit were BS and that the base case has to be hard Brexshit by design. What planet were the mind changers on?!?!

At least this is an test case for the woolly argument/fantasy of being poorer but free/in control. The reality is poorer and out of control. And who are the people who suffer most? The fantasist ought to take heed before they put an x in the wrong box again, if that ever happens.

If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.

Quite David, and it can also end up looking very foolish.

binners - Member
The Observor today is reporting what's been said in various busines pages already. That business leaders who have had meetings, to apparently be reassured, with the bunch of clowns government ministers involved in Brexit negotiations, have come away seriously alarmed at what they're proposing.

The same phrase has been repeated many times...,

"They don't know what they're doing"

Given who we're talking about here, this is hardly going to come as a great shock to anyone

Well Nissan said what they wanted and now seem to be saying they got what they wanted - is that the gist of your point?

Or in other words being open about roughly what you want can actually be extremely powerful in negotiations - but it does depend on being willing to walk away.
The "can't tell you anything" style of negotiation does suggest that you failure to get a deal is an abyss - and thereby gives away as much as it hides.