[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

The Tories are spilt in this. You cant make it a party issue.

They happen to be the party that has to execute the mandate delivered (?) by the "advisory" referendum. Of course its a mess - no one has done this before and its a lose:lose.

Barring a miraculous compromise agreement ie, a fudged non-Brexit, the government has to deliver the least self-harm result.

Labour are v lucky because despite their own disarray on the issue, the Tories will inevitably take the responsibility for the forthcoming bit of a mess. But then again life and politics aren't fair are they?

Labour are v lucky because despite their own disarray on the issue, the Tories will inevitably take the responsibility for the forthcoming bit of a mess. But then again life and politics aren't fair are they?

agreed

even with Corbyn still in charge (tho imho hes not as unelectable as many think) I cant see the tories poltting a safe course out of this-
they either let down 48% of the country, 52% of the country or more likely 98%* of the country

*2%= jambalaya, davies, fox, farage and leadsome & a few of the hardcore express/mail readers will probably gaze over our post A50 economic wasteland and still see some sort of fantasy 1950s monoracial utopia

IMO 52/48 on a c70% turnout when only c70% of the population could vote is no mandate. That the Tory party have declared that as a resounding mandate has not so much shot themselves in the foot but run into a minefield carrying a nuke.

Some of what May has said about ignored voters, parts of society being abandoned etc is true, but it isn't the EU that abandoned these areas, and work needs to be done. When you have a media landscape shaped by Murdoch/Dacre/etc was there any likelyhood of a "fair" vote.

So those poor areas are going to hell, tax revenue will drop or tax will have to rise substantially, that is really going to go down well!, there will be no investment because the country can't afford it. Forget Trident, HS2 etc. The civil service is going to be spending alot of time sorting this bit of a mess. The lawyers are laughing though!

So what are May's alternatives?

1. Should she be saying Brexshit means Brexshit or possibly Brexshit (we are doing our best to fudge it)?
2. Get on with things or stick her head in the sand?
3. Put the monkeys in charge or someone sane?
4. Pretend that there is something to present to Parliament at every stage to keep 24H news happy or brief as is necessary?

There are more, but those are just starters.

5) go for hard brexit, drop corporation tax down to nothing and turn us into a tax haven, there will be no money to help the 'left behind brexit voters' but low immigration will help murdoch/dacre convincing them its all getting better and that the EU is definitely going to be worse off

my reasoning is, she prommissed the Nissan guy something at the meeting at No10 today- he left smiling, it was either, yes we will stay in the single market or we will throw you a ton of cash to stay

All this talk of hard and soft Brexit is so negative, there is only exit from the EU and the single market, that's it.

What then needs to be negotiated quickly are the Trade Tariffs to keep goods flowing to and fro and wether or not we agree to remain signed up to product regulations.

Then we have to consider the legal bill and what our exposure to EU liabilities & pensions is going to cost us, this will involve hard bargaining and lots of work. It will be tied to future visas and movement of folk in work, theirs to here, ours to there.

The rest should be just gone, no EU law, no free movement of people, no restrictions on trade arrangements with other countries, no fishing quotas, no farming subsidies, no set aside, but no Eu grants either they'll have to be sorted internally.

Then it's Utopia.

A lot to do, best we get on with it.

to remain signed up to product regulations.

Why would they allow us to export goods that didnt match their regulations?

May's alternatives, really do involve the three stooges being incompetent or magicians.

One way she can walk away saying impossible, and the other we do become some kind of nirvana.

IMO she screwed up the moment she started talking about decisive, Farage made it clear that 48/52 would be unfinished business. 52/48 is no mandate.

Also the minor issue of the court case on royal perogative, does she have power or does westminster have the final say. Which then comes back to how many MPs are willing to pull the trigger.

IF they can come out with a plan that the markets accept, the voters accept etc

WHich ex poster are you rosscore?
[img] [/img]

Please sign this if you agree.
http://writetoremain.uk/?list&utm_term=0_d384ff744f-475f7e94d7-61175057

Good point - it was a v indecisive vote and its disingenuous of the BSErs to talk otherwise. But she is caught because she cant stand up and say this is bloody complicated, will take time and is a buggers muddle - since she will be declared incompetent - so she has to feign competence (that no one has here) instead.

What a bloody mess

Just how much rain is falling up north?

rosscore - Member
Then it's Utopia.

either:

A) your idea of Utopia is very different from mine

or

B) you really haven't thought about this at all.

example of 'B':

how would UK farmers, producing subsidy-free wheat, compete with EU farmers?

(edit: or 'C') troll, well done)

yes its at 55 - 45 it becomes decisive isnt it thm...either that or when they agree with you ...one of the two

IMHO neither is that decisive as the gaps remain quite close so that the populace is broadly split into two camps of opposing views

However with one it was a chance in a lifetime and with the other its not a mandate.....gotta have principles in life

So what are May's alternatives?

5. Continue with the plan which is make Brexit look so bad that it gets postponed indefinitely and eventually canned.

I think Juncker's in on it tbh.

5. Continue with the plan which is make Brexit look so bad that it gets postponed indefinitely and eventually canned.

I think Juncker's in on it tbh.

I genuinely have been thinking this is a possibility, I reckon she let Ghosn in on it today too

can you imagine if this conspiracy were to be exposed though?!, how many brexiters heads would actually explode, 😆

ahwiles - Member
rosscore - Member
Then it's Utopia.
either:

A) your idea of Utopia is very different from mine

or

B) you really haven't thought about this at all.

You tell me your idea of Utopia, I'll tell you mine, I left out the winky emoji sorry.

My little world is absolute hell since that decision, my living relies on buying goods from a small company in Germany and selling them from my little company here in the UK, rather like that poor lady they all ignored on QT last night telling her she'd better get used to it, the 2 1/2 years of uncertainty ahead, during a period the vat man makes more money from the goods I sell than I do. There are already considerable price pressures and there aint much belt room left, one more knotch and the back of the buckle will touch the front.
My Utopia doesn't include anything called Politician.

You have to think that there is a behind the scenes deal going on

But they will only declare it after the pain of the negotiations becomes clear

Then it's Utopia.

Obviously there are three main parts to this brexshit debacle: Political, Economic, Legal.

Naturally, Darth Theresa and the three brexiteers are focusing on the Political, trying their damnedest to ignore the economic(along with all the other utopian Brexshit loonies) and have completely buried their heads in the sand over the legal complications of trying to exit something to which the country has belonged to in one form or another for the last forty years. The legal complexities alone could take decades to untangle.

This is why the "hard brexit" thing has been put forward, a purely political agenda that attempts to brush under the carpet the other two parts. Unfortunately for them the "wall of reality" has once again appeared.

Its curious that we get on this here forum what appears to be the most ardent of brexshiteers(loonies) who are trying to will into existence some sort of utopian free trade world, that hasn't existed up until now for good reason, and will not exist now or in the future for the same good reason.

Brexit should be a lesson to others that exit from EU doesn't exempt you from globalization;[u]it just gives you less power to shape its rules.[/u]

The fundamental point that never gets answered, if this is about migration why were we still having 150k non EU people coming into the UK, the easily stopped number. It is almost as if the politicians don't want to admit that stopping immigration is going to cause a few minor issues in itself.

Rosscore - I suspect unless Brexit is very soft or canned your present is your foreseeable future. It probably isn't going to get better after A50 is triggered, and it will be 5-10 years* before a positive stability starts to set in. Sorry, but I guess that's what the overwhelming majority voted for.

*my estimate - jambalaya suggested somewhat longer.

and just to throw into the mix, just reading in Economist survey that upto 10% of brexit voters regret voting that way. only 2% of remain voters have that regret.

So there goes any mandate.

Get a few more bad stories and apart from Jambalaya will anyone complain if Brexit is scrapped?

The UK was doing so well afterall in the '70's! do we really want to go back there!

IGM you are quite correct hence my plea would be to get a move on.

As for Free Trade Area, I was in business in the 70's and in those days we did actually appear to sell more cars to Europe than they to us, unfortunately our labour relations were such that nobody wanted to make them with any regularity. It is ridiculous to compare the UK as it is today with the UK of the 70's, but having lived through the period even despite the inflation and the other problems it was a better time for young adults to set out on life's course.
You could work in Europe if you were lucky enough to get such a job, travel there was not a problem except like now the £ was in the toilet, so we used to ski in Italy where like now their economy was little better than ours and the lire could be purchased more reasonably.
What the EC promised and delivered was the lack of problems for goods crossing borders, if you were shipping a truck load of handbags from Italy to here it didn't get stopped and have to show customs documents at the Austrian, German, French or Belgian borders. It was, still is, a great idea, what wasn't such a great idea was the politicising of the trading group and it's continued expansion, it's often the way with buying and trading groups all the time they are small and manageable they are very successful, trouble only comes when there are too many beaks in the trough.

The mistake was rolling the EU right up to Putins door, they should have stopped at Poland and the Czech & Slovac republics, but what done can't be undone, all we can do is exit and hope to start anew, it's going to hurt, but I can only hope it'll be alright in the end, providing there isn't WW3, news of China sending thousands of troops to help conquer Isis, Nato troops massing along the Russian borders doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in anything right now.

[url= http://www.politico.eu/pro/theresa-mays-brexit-war-cabinet/ ]http://www.politico.eu/pro/theresa-mays-brexit-war-cabinet/[/url]

if they are the finest minds the uk can muster 🙁

Obviously there are three main parts to this brexshit debacle: Political, Economic, Legal.

Correct, nobody appears to give a shiny shit about the human element.

Carney just said inflation will rise and poorer in society will suffer even more with higher food prices.

Carney just said inflation will rise and poorer in society will suffer even more with higher food prices.

"NSS!" - and wait for when rates are normalised. Who will be screwed then?

cchris2lou - Member
Carney just said inflation will rise and poorer in society will suffer even more with higher food prices.

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO #

And he could stop it now, in a trice, just restore interest rates to 1/5% suddenly, the £ would recover, inflation wouldn't occur..

But he won't, the Masters of the Universe have an entirely different Agenda.

surely rising interest rates would create chaos on housing market .

I dont think Carney is that keen on current government .

Yes

It doesn't matter - he has a job and a target. If inflation exceed the target he will have to raise Interest rates irrespective of his view on the government

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/nissan-confident-about-uk-investments-after-brexit-theresa-may-sunderland-a7362256.html ]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/nissan-confident-about-uk-investments-after-brexit-theresa-may-sunderland-a7362256.html[/url]

and it begins, so who is next? So not only will we have to pay shed loads to negotiate, we now have to pay companies not to leave. The magic money tree must be having a bumper harvest.

Hah.

"Don't worry Carlos, it's all a big con. We're not leaving!"

molgrips - Member
Hah.

"Don't worry Carlos, it's all a big con. We're not leaving!"

nah

he was just promised a huge tax break

we are going for the celtic tiger low tax model, how did that work out for irelnd again?

who is next?

[i]Theresa May has told the head of the NHS that it will get no extra money despite rapidly escalating problems that led to warnings this week that hospitals are close to breaking point.

The prime minister dashed any hopes of a cash boost in next month’s autumn statement when she met Simon Stevens, the chief executive of NHS England, senior NHS sources have told the Guardian. Instead she told him last month that the NHS should urgently focus on making efficiencies to fill the £22bn hole in its finances and not publicly seek more than the “£10bn extra” that ministers insist they have already pledged to provide during this parliament.[/i]

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/14/no-extra-money-for-nhs-theresa-may-tells-health-chief ]The Venga Bus isn't coming[/url]

Nissan now says UK can be competitive place for them to do business according to BBC News.

of course Uk is good for business if he has been promised no tax for next 10 years . FFS !

chewkw - Member
Nissan now says UK can be competitive place for them to do business according to BBC News

yes, weve just promised them lots of taxpayers money

funnily enough renault owns half of nissan and the french government part owns renault.......

so we are still paying into the EU 😆

kimbers - Member
yes, weve just promised them lots of taxpayers money

funnily enough renault owns half of nissan and the french government part owns renault.......

so we are still paying into the EU

Yes, I know bunch of snakes they are ... money talks.

[quote=teamhurtmore ]It doesn't matter - he has a job and a target. If inflation exceed the target he will have to raise Interest rates irrespective of his view on the government

All these things are connected aren't they? So if interest rates rise the pound will recover.

Could you give an exec summary of the likely actions and reactions for those of us who are reasonably intelligent but aren't economists?

yes, weve just promised them lots of taxpayers money

All these things are connected aren't they? So if interest rates rise the pound will recover.

Indeed

Could you give an exec summary of the likely actions and reactions for those of us who are reasonably intelligent but aren't economists?

A mega bear market in bonds just around the corner?

what about the money for Cornwall and Wales they were worried about losing? and the farmers and fisherman as well? and bankers? where is it all coming from?? They previously said we had such little money they needed to cut payments to the disabled with "fit to work" tests and so on as part of Austerity.

This all continues to make no sense whatsoever

kimbers - Member

yes, weve just promised them lots of taxpayers money

And every other international in the country is going to be demanding the same. Blindin.

It makes absolute sense if all you are attuned to is keeping cash in the country's coffers.
Via austerity scraping the shirt off the back of the poorest,
Or via golden palming big business for jobs in order to pacify.
It all comes down to the same thing at the end of the day

Money

And it always will be thus