[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

rone the EU has done the square root of f-all. Osbourne got £100m out of Google

Aren't Apple being smacked for 13 billion?

FT is behind a paywall

A small price to pay to avoid making unsubstantiated claims - I recommend it

The comments below the articles make this place seem tame at times

EU has ignored these deals for years, they have been shamed into it by the PWC leak

You dont have spout some untruths and gibberish oin here

Facts wrong
reasoning deeply deeply flawed

- They will stop recruiting doctors whose training was paid for by other countries ..many of which are poorer than the UK and themselves have less doctors per head of population
- They will welcome with open arms people who want to come here solely for the purpose of accessing education but will not welcome those who are really coming here for other reasons
- They will make sure the proven abuses by some employers are dealt with - and also force employers to invest more in training.

My wife graduated from a respected university, top of her class in Economics. It was already impossible for her to find a job after she graduated so we had to go down the marriage visa route to stay together. The attack on students is rhetorical, designed as others have said to reduce overall numbers - the abusers were mostly dealt with by the previous administration.

Kimbers is right - this feels like the 1930's.

UK Govt powerless, its an EU law issue. I have made this point a number if times before

Why can't the DfT prosecute?

Tom_W1987 - Member
My wife graduated from a respected university, top of her class in Economics.

A degree in Economics is not easy to find a job regardless of where you are in the world. In the far east Economics degree is usually studied by govt sponsored students (govt people). They get to study Economics in preparation to become future advisors etc. Privately funded individuals would prefer Accounting & Finance or any science related degree. Even a degree management related is much better. I think most of the Economics graduates I know are either working for their own parents or end up as teacher at schools.

She's working a 40k job in Finance - despite only graduating in 2014 - but cheers - it wasn't impossible for her to get interviews, it was impossible to get a tier 2.

Jambalaya, those businesses have no need to be UK based at all. What is stopping them from moving their UK offices some where else?

We make it a legal requiremt to be based here and route their profits through a UK company. We are perfectly entitied once we are out of the EU to make it so.

TMH I wonder if the FT has the same offshore tax arrangements as the Guardian ? Vested Interest ? Haven't read the Ft since the dire standard of their reporting on the credit crises. It's just a big tabloid on pink paper.

@rome yes its back taxes as Apple where paying 1% not the 12.5% they where supposed to. I believe Apple puts 60% of its international profits through Ireland. In my book Apple has swerved something like €40bn in European taxes by routing through Ireland instead of UK, France, Germany etc where the real sales took place and where corporate taxes are much higher.

Tom we are adopting the same practices as Canada, Australia and the US. If that's your idea of the 1930's then so be it

We make it a legal requiremt to be based here and route their profits through a UK company. We are perfectly entitied once we are out of the EU to make it so.

Have you got a flag?

TMH I wonder if the FT has the same offshore tax arrangements as the Guardian ? Vested Interest ?

What does that have to do with the article or the points under discussion?

Haven't read the Ft since the dire standard of their reporting on the credit crises.

That is very clear eg, misunderstanding of UK exposure to Greece and the facts behind our last support package.

It's just a big tabloid on pink paper.

I see. Perhaps I will need to simply make stuff up in future.

Tom we are adopting the same practices as Canada, Australia and the US. If that's your idea of the 1930's then so be it

Canada allows students to work, Canadas points based immigration policy is a joke - I could get through it even without a job offer and I'm a lazy arsehole - the UK is harder. Get your facts straight.

And if you think that the US is a shining beacon of right wing sanity, it isn't - it's dangerously close to turning Starship Troopers into a documentary. I see may wants to take us down that route as well by setting up 150 new cadet forces (read brownshirts) - so now we get to have US style militarism as well. Next up, public lynchings when people fail to standup when the national anthem is played at every single ****ing sporting match.

**** it though, at least joining some kind of British Edelweißpiraten will give me a cause to latch onto - for the first time ever.

We make it a legal requiremt to be based here and route their profits through a UK company. We are perfectly entitied once we are out of the EU to make it so.

Have yo ever worked for a company that failed to follow these principles? Or more than one even? 😉

Tom_W1987 - Member
She's working a 40k job in Finance - despite only graduating in 2014 - but cheers - it wasn't impossible for her to get interviews, it was impossible to get a tier 2.

That is strange. 40K a year? In sterling pounds in the UK or currency in other country? She is more than qualified if that is the case (earning UK £/Euro) but if that is salary outside of EU/UK then it amounts to nothing no matter what amount, unless you want to invest min £200,000K in the UK.

Getting interview is one thing, getting [b][u]a job offer[/u][/b] from "UK employer with a valid Tier 2 sponsorship licence" is much harder. Most companies will give you an interview to make up the quota regardless of where you come from. Getting an offer is very much harder.

On top of that before the job is offered it must pass The Resident Labour Market Test - EU/EEA & UK. (not for Tier 2 Shortage Occupations List)

It has nothing to do with tier 2 - it has everything to do with the job offer (from employer with sponsorship licence) and the salary level must reach certain level (can remember what now).

My friend faced the same situation but eventually she got a job but it was closed. She is a scientist and they pay her well.

She just have to keep applying and cast her net wider (in other fields). Eventually she will find an employer that value her to help her. Good luck.

No, you won't pass the Resident Labour Market Test being a fresh graduate - which was the point of my post. May and Rudd are full of shit, there are not hoardes of international students getting opportunities to take British jobs.

She's on that, because she scored insanely highly - consistently throughout the three years of her degree and because she got a lot of interest once we got the marriage visa, landing a job with a rather secretive hedge fund. She was then poached by another firm - all in the space of a year. However before she had the marriage visa, the first thing she was always told was "we won't sponsor you".

Tom_W1987 - Member
However before she had the marriage visa, the first thing she was always told was "we won't sponsor you".

Nothing to do with UK I am afraid. Been there done that. The EU rules make it harder for British companies to hire non-EU people. All my friends face the same problems. I can assure you without the EU bureaucrats British Companies will hire people from all over the world left right and centre. They want the Best for their business!

@Nipper BTW did you see Merkel was [b]asking[/b] German business to support her stance, she has already had the car unions saying they want a deal. Also see the logic that if UK is granted a deal on freedom of movement then many countries will want the same 😯 isn't that the point, the people of Europe don't want freedom of movement. Its the EU elite who are wedded to it. There is absolitely no need for free trade to be linked with freedom of movement. The EU created this link as a step to political union, an EU superstate.

All the those here who want higher Government spending better hope that there is much more money to be raised from these international tax swerves like Apple. Otherwise there quite simply won't be enough tax revenue as it's not going to come from other sources, "tax the rich" is political dogma rather than a tax policy which is actually going to raise any money.

Tom we are adopting the same practices as Canada, Australia and the US. If that's your idea of the 1930's then so be it

But your entire premise is that immigration in it's current state is bad. Here lies the problem the evidence doesn't really back it up. In fact the evidence is positive and says it's been a good thing.

The bits around it like housing/education/health are things that successive UK governments have ignored. It's got nothing to do with the EU.
There are some things you can blame the damm immigrants for
Paying Tax
Doing jobs that UK workers snub
Working hard and opening businesses
Expanding the population in the areas that are needed to fund the aging baby boomers

But those things don't make a good slogan do they.
Imagine the Mail/Express headlines - Pensioners hounded out of retirement Villa, told to Piss off and go home - from places they made their homes - how very dare they!
A nightmare in Provonce - how I can't live in my retirement property - a retired couple are not eligable for a visa due to being a drain on the state.

Tom we are adopting the same practices as Canada, Australia and the US. If that's your idea of the 1930's then so be it

[img] [/img]

Perhaps Australia wasn't the best example...

[b]@Captain you will recall I called the US loss carry forwrd[/b] [s]stupid. [/s] I am consistent. Trump would do just as Apple etc do. That's why the law needs changing and is one reason why "full access to the single market" is a bad idea.

But your entire premise is that immigration in it's current state is bad. Here lies the problem the evidence doesn't really back it up. In fact the evidence is positive and says it's been a good thing.

Which typifies the whole debate. It is based in a false premise. But the target swing voter - white working class England - wants to be fed this stuff and May&Co seem only too happy to oblige. They know that they have Corbyn by the shirt and curries here and they will squeeze hard.

Unfortunately, while this is good for them, it's appaling for the rest of us.

Rich Australia had a massive illegal migrant problem which they have largely solved with very tough action. People who arrive illegally have committed a criminal offense and should be held in a prison. I think Australia is an good example.

But your entire premise is that immigration in it's current state is bad

Yes uncontrolled immigration is bad, that is the current state but will be changing very soon.

It's good that you still think you can defend Trump's alleged tax dodging but call Starbuck's tax dodging a scam and remain credible.

Consistent. The rules need to be changed in both cases. Starbucks etc is a bit different as they sad down and agreed a clandestine deal with Luxembourg/Ireland authorities involving all sorts of smoke and mirrors.

See what I mean....Jambas last line is incorrect in at least three ways which is quite an achievement.

False arguments with no supporting data resulting in bad outcomes.

jambalaya - Member
Rich Australia had a massive illegal migrant problem which they have largely solved with very tough action.

handy chart here

Norway option please

[img] [/img]

[i]Also see the logic that if UK is granted a deal on freedom of movement then many countries will want the same isn't that the point, the people of Europe don't want freedom of movement. Its the EU elite who are wedded to it.[/i]

I think you'll find that Joe Public do want freedom of movement, it's just that they don't actually understand the consequences of not having it - and for most the only time they'll see any of it is while queuing at an airport and/or applying for visa's.

Consistent. The rules need to be changed in both cases. Starbucks etc is a bit different as they sad down and agreed a clandestine deal with Luxembourg/Ireland authorities involving all sorts of smoke and mirrors.

Ah splendid I see the government have decided to allow fracking at Cuadrilla's site in Lancashire.

Pam Foster, co-founder of Residents Action on Fylde Fracking, said: "This is a total denial of democracy. Our parish council, our borough council, our county council all threw out this application.

"We have pursued every democratic channel we can do, there's nothing left for us. We're pretty disgusted and very upset."
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-37567866 ]BBC[/url]

What happened to all that "listening to the people" and "respecting democracy" stuff?

Ah splendid I see the government have decided to allow fracking at Cuadrilla's site in Lancashire.

You know that you are living in strange times when Alex Massie in the Spectator starts making sense

[url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/britain-british-theresa-may-leads-new-nationalist-government/ ]Spectator Link[/url]

[i]Scottish jobs for Scottish workers. We’re going to stop foreigners from coming here and taking jobs Scottish people can do. We are going to make companies declare the nationality of their employees: those that do not employ a sufficiently high percentage of Scots will be ‘named and shamed’. They have a duty to this country; a duty to our people.[/i]

[i] But I say only this: think how you might react if the SNP were talking – loudly and clearly and unashamedly – in this fashion. Think how you would react to that. And then apply that thinking to the rhetoric we’ve heard in Birmingham this week. Judge your own by the standards you’d use to judge others. That’s all.[/i]

Any chance blackpool could take em to the EHCR ?, (backed brexit by 68% , tho but europes gotta be good for something )

That is good news. Just the first of many hopefully.

Regardless of whether you think it is good news or not, it is an immediate return to business as usual for the government after a week of big promises. As I said on the fracking thread:

[b]Theresa May on Sunday:[/b]

the Government I lead will be driven not by the interests of a privileged few, but by the interests of ordinary, working-class families.

[b]Theresa May on Wednesday:[/b]

Our democracy should work for everyone, but if you’ve been trying to say things need to change for years and your complaints fall on deaf ears, it doesn’t feel like it’s working for you.

[b]Theresa May's Government on Thursday:[/b]

Screw you, ordinary working class families, trying to block the interests of the privileged few with your democracy. Your complaints fall on deaf ears.

Makes you wonder if, despite Brexit, they have really learnt anything at all about listening to the electorate.

And it also makes their complaints about Remainers trying to ignore democracy look just a bit hypocritical.

Norway option please

We've been through this before. Norwegian Referemdum voted against joining the EU but Government ignored it and just signed up anyway. A suitably anti-Drmocratic responce worthy of the EU

Norway option please

I think they'd need a LOT of spin to get that to fly with Brexit voters:
Still pay, still accept Freedom of Movement, still bound by EU rules, but no longer any say in those rules.

What would be the point in leaving?

And it would fly in the face of May [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-speech-tory-conference-2016-in-full-transcript-a7346171.html ]saying[/url]:

I want it to give British companies the maximum freedom to trade with and operate within the Single Market – and let European businesses do the same here.

But let's state one thing loud and clear: we are not leaving the European Union only to give up control of immigration all over again. And we are not leaving only to return to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. That's not going to happen.

Some light relief:

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/10/06/are-you-a-foreigner-government-form/

@Graham kimbers was making a joke, Norway option is acceptable to RemIners given the Referendum result

EU faces a right muddle as the Swiss voted against Freedom of Movement in a legally binding Referendum nearly 2 years ago

Norway option is acceptable to RemIners given the Referendum result

I seem to remember some Leavers on here pushing it as an option before the referendum (though to be fair it might have just been chewkw).

@Graham kimbers was making a joke, Norway option is acceptable to RemIners given the Referendum result

U wot m8?

Aren't you and the majority of remianers arguing for a hard exit with migration controls?

[i]EU faces a right muddle as the Swiss voted against Freedom of Movement in a legally binding Referendum nearly 2 years ago [/i]

Remind me, when have they been a part of the EU?

As soon as the whole process starts we'll get Brexiters telling us Remainers what we really want. 🙄

EU faces a right muddle as the Swiss voted against Freedom of Movement in a legally binding Referendum nearly 2 years ago

Remind me, when have they been a part of the EU?

Well, anyway, this whole thing has convinced me to do a masters and a PhD that will involve me going to places where I might get shot at. I don't feel like contributing to the health and well being of Brits anymore.

*spits on the floor*

Rich Australia had a massive illegal migrant problem

which they have largely solved with very tough action.

Wrong, it's a massive political issue, riots in the camps, rife with abuse and so on.

People who arrive illegally have committed a criminal offense

Wrong.

and should be held in a prison.

Wrong, prisons are for criminals.

I think Australia is an good example.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37582150 ]even the software is getting jittery over brexit[/url]....

The software had been programmed by to a spec, someone wrote the spec...