[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Are UK boats not going to other EU countries' waters to fish then? If not, why not?

Thanks for your views and wow, those stats. Gosh I love stats.

Anyway, I've been looking into the whole farming issue and apparently Northern Ireland alone exports £1 billion food to the EU. If you look at Defra stats "Northern Ireland’s food and drink export trade with the EU brings in over £1bn to the economy. Meat exports account for over a quarter of this export value, at £280m, with dairy and eggs a close second at £240m." That must be quite important for a bit of the economy which was rather held back until the peace process took effect.

Fascinating. The whole UK food and farming industry is worth a tidy £27 billion to the economy, and we export £18 billion. Go us. Just to quote from Defra "Of the UK’s top 20 export markets for food and drink products, £9.37 billion goes to EU countries and £4.33bn goes to non-EU countries."

So anyway, if/when we become stand alone WTO members, they won't let us subsidise our farmers (and export) so what do we do? Pesky rules. Stop subsidising farmers or take the inevitable tariffs on cheddar? Or whatever.

For the panel's consideration: [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07k08xd#play ]"Why Did People Vote Leave?" on The Briefing Room (Radio 4)[/url].

Give it 5 minutes and try not to make yourself too hoarse!

@kelvin farmers and fisherman where pro-Leave quite substantially so I understand. Do you really think they don't fully understand the EU and its subsidies and trade barriers and thought about all of that before voting.

Yes, I think they don't fully understand…

A) how many of their problems are down to UK government decisions, not EU directives
B) how leaving the EU doesn't isolate us from decisions made by governments of other countries
C) the links between subsidy rules and trade barriers

Fishermen would be perfectly happy with export tarifs on fish as the Spanish etc boats can't easily catch those fish anywhere else.

Um, are you referring to foreign boats operating under British quotas that were sold to them after privatisation? Or foreign boats accessing our waters under international agreements that don't end when we leave the EU? Either way, if they land in their own ports, they'll take the fish tariff free... Unlike our own fisherman who rely heavily on selling into other EU countries.

I do love the Remainers attempts to twist stuff

David Davies is a long standing eurosceptic who campaigned for Leave. I am sure he's delighted with the role. He was also favourite to win the leadership before Cameron exploded onto the scene.

Liam Fox will focus on International Trade, ie not the EU. Perfect, full time role negotiating for Britain and lining up the great deals an unwieldy 27 member EU cannot deliver

Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary focuing on international relations again with a bias for outside the EU

Overall is May who knows her Premiership will be judged on how she delivers Brexit, she is very much in charge and responsible.

they won't let us subsidise our farmers

I missed that, can non-EU countries not export produce from subsidised farming into the EU?

This article implies we an subsidise out farmers, but it might be wrong:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/how-brexit-would-affect-british-farmers/

It also contains the snippet that we pay more into the CAP than we get out:

we pay £6 billion a year into the CAP, but our farmers get only £3 billion back. British farmers are effectively subsidising their competitors

In other news, google suggests egg Tariffs into the EU are high. India and Ukraine seem to manage to export into the EU, but I'd guess the UK might struggle. So AFAICT egg exporters would lose out. (But I've no idea how much margin there is in eggs.)

Yes, I think they don't fully understand…

I think they understand far better than any of us.

As I understand it you cannot just catch fish and just pay a tariff.

[b]jambalaya[/b] - Member
I do love the Remainers attempts to twist stuff

[img] [/img]

Yes, I think they don't fully understand…

Evidence of that? I'd have thought Farmers and Fishermen would have a detailed understanding of all this, the only farmer I know knows it inside out - it's his livelihood. (Mind you, I have no idea how he voted.)

I am sure he's delighted with the role.

Maybe Davis is.

In contrast Boris's attitude since the vote has seemed to me to be one of serious backtracking. If he was relishing delivering "Brexit" he hid it well.

Jambas, mon Amis, you are surpassing yourself. Even Hannan has given up pretending about this shit now, You guys won, you don't need to make it up any more. It's ok.....

Le Bojo got a less than cordial reaction to his facetious ending to his speech at the July 14 dinner tonight.

Of course we can subsise our Farmers, the EU does exactly that already. We can do the same outside the EU

We import 60% of our food, there is no need to export anything at all.

We import 60% of our food, there is no need to export anything at all.

You are aware that most of what we can grow in this country wouldn't allow for a balanced diet? We have to export some of what we grow because it can't all be consumed in this country. And we can't grow more (or any) of what we need without major infrastructure investment and centralized control of farming to ensure we have what we need for the whole population (ie. outside of market forces). Unlikely to go down all with the tory crowd is it?

. And we can't grow more (or any) of what we need without major infrastructure investment and centralized control of farming to ensure we have what we need for the whole population

If the EU can use tariffs and subsidies to influence what gets produced by farmers the UK can just as easily. If the EU can manage without centralized control of farming, so could the UK.

Maybe Davis is.

I think he knows it's a poison chalice, and was straight in with "Collective Decisions" in an interview I heard earlier.

Jambas, mon Amis, you are surpassing yourself. Even Hannan has given up pretending about this shit now, You guys won, you don't need to make it up any more. It's ok.....

Le Bojo got a less than cordial reaction to his facetious ending to his speech at the July 14 dinner tonight.

Hannan was always focused on democracy and global trade and less on freedom of movement. I and many others don't agree with his Newsnight statement on freedom of movement.

French politicians who've had their precious EU given the two-fingered salute in sense of humour failure, no surprise there really. Anyway they needed a distraction from their president spending €120,000 per anum on a hairdresser.

And we can't grow more (or any) of what we need without major infrastructure investment and centralized control of farming to ensure we have what we need for the whole population

WTF ! Farmers grow and rear what EU dictate via subsidies. They absolutely hate it thats why they voted Leave. We can produce much more than we do presently and we can do it more profitably. We will still import food I am sure but we'd do just fine with no distored EU "free trade". I watched a TV report of some terrible treatment of cattle in Italy the other day, animal welfare standards are widely ignored in Europe and the rules hugely abused. The EU food passporting system was responsible for horse meat in our burgers. I'd be glad to see the back of it

"straight in with "Collective Decisions" in an interview I heard earlier."

😀

Love it.

Was the eu to blame for the hairdressing bill or foreigners?

We can produce much more than we do presently and we can do it more profitably. We will still import food I am sure but we'd do just fine with no distored EU "free trade"

We will do fine ...are you not leaving now?

[quote=jambalaya ]animal welfare standards are widely ignored in Europe and the rules hugely abused.

So now we're out, the rules don't apply to us and we can ignore animal welfare standards too>?

If the EU can use tariffs and subsidies to influence what gets produced by farmers the UK can just as easily. If the EU can manage without centralized control of farming, so could the UK.

Think of the variety of food that can be grown across the EU climatic range year round and compare that to the UK. We can't even be calorific sufficient let alone nutritionally sufficient. We have no choice but to import at the moment and for the forseable future.

The subsidy system is a bit of a mess though. Although I suspect my reasons for thinking that are markedly different to the those of the right wingers.

FWIW I work at an Institute dedicated to agricultural improvement. The facts surrounding food security in the UK and wider world are truly frightening. While some of you may be experts in free market trading you know FA about food production as used to stop people starving or becoming malnourished rather than selling it for profit. The people I work with are global experts in it and they always look terrified when the topic of UK food security gets discussed.

And people illegally putting horse into the food chain were responsible for horse burgers not eu passporting. But now the gin is getting to my head so I'll stop here.

So now we're out, the rules don't apply to us and we can ignore animal welfare standards too>?

or we could ban meat that doesn't meet our welfare standards, massive benefit to UK farming

Hold on, who owns most of the UK electricity suppliers?

[img] [/img]

is this really OK?

is this really OK?

No, it demonstrates the failure of EU competition policy

or are you suggesting they are going to turn the lights off?

jambalaya » animal welfare standards are widely ignored in Europe and the rules hugely abused.

To be fair that was exactly the argument from the local chicken farmer that I drink with.

He keeps ~15,000 free-range hens. They need a lot of looking after to do it all by the book which obviously costs money. He feels that he gets under-cut by imported eggs from countries in the EU that take a much less rigorous approach to enforcing the welfare rules.

No, it demonstrates the failure of EU competition policy

I could be wrong but I think the UK government put the privatisation policies int place, not the EU.

the UK nuclear industry as well as a big chunk of water, transport and telecomms infastructure is also owned by overseas investors I think.

Was just wondering how "taking Britain back" is going to work in regards to this vital backbone of the country which has been sold off.

the UK nuclear industry as well as a big chunk of water, transport and telecomms infastructure is also owned by overseas investors I think.

the Canadian Teachers pension Fund is a worry

[url= http://www.snappytv.com/tc/2367171/1207044 ]Boris at the French Embassy - Bastille Day Celebration[/url]

Seemed to me it was mostly applause including at the every closer union joke (In French) at the end. Journalists not sure whether it was Brits or French making the booing.

The thread that keeps on giving...
On farmers I think 100% of those I asked were fully remain.
I'm glad now the UK is free from oppression leave will now fix the weather to make sure the UK can grow oranges and olives where we want...

I'm coming to the conclusion that Theresa May is an evil genius.

Look at the whole cabinet. Now look at the jobs the leavers got.

Leadsom gets to tell farmers where their subsidies went.
Johnson, Fox and Davis get to try and put an acceptable UK position together in terms of trade (both inside and outside the EU), freedom of movement etc - and if the don't then they failed to deliver Brexit, not May's fault, she's not going to do that to the country. And the leavers have to suck it up because they couldn't deliver. If they do May gets to say she picked the right team.
And Patel gets international development - I suspect another sticky area, not so much for what those foreigners we need to develop say and do, but for what people round (say) Sunderland say about development starting at home (as they realise there isn't £350m a month never mind a week)
Of the leavers only Evans gets something achievable with Leader of the Lords - unless of course the lords don't fancy Brexit in which case...

Like I said - evil genius

"FWIW I work at an Institute dedicated to agricultural improvement. The facts surrounding food security in the UK and wider world are truly frightening."

No quarrel with that statement.

I'd have thought one of the best arguments for remaining in the EU (an EU that might include Ukraine one day) is access to food when the phosphates crisis kicks in.

@kelvin farmers and fisherman where pro-Leave quite substantially so I understand. Do you really think they don't fully understand the EU and its subsidies and trade barriers and thought about all of that before voting.

My friend is the MD of a rather large agricultural feed company. I think I can say with some authority that the farmers he's spoken to who voted out are now coming to the realisation that they haven't so much been turkeys voting for Christmas, as they have been turkeys voting to introduce Thanksgiving too.

So no, lots didn't fully understand. It's safe to say most had little comprehension.

So no, lots didn't fully understand. It's safe to say most had little comprehension

No need to restrict this to farmers!

Lots of people believed the lies they were told.

Great authority!!

Bank of England are suggesting yesterday that Brexit will have a significant impact on family finances. But I don't expect any comment on that from Jamby.Anyway, I have to keep reminding myself it is about taking back control,and chastise myself for having such a selfish mindset.

jambalaya - Member

I do love the Remainers attempts to twist stuff

Says the man who was still mentioning £350m last week.

Great authority!!

His company services a significant portion of the UK's livestock industry. He and his staff talk to many clients each day, most of whom are farmers. What's your source of more reliable information?

Oliver Letwin said UK has no trade negotiators at all in a radio 4 interview this morning.

I think we have 6 trade negotiators employed in the civil service the plan is to hire some in trouble is most of the UK based ones are already busy with corporate clients protecting their interests in the chaos. The predicted cost for the negotiations was being put at £240 million a week !

I think we have 6 trade negotiators employed in the civil service the plan is to hire some in trouble is most of the UK based ones are already busy with corporate clients protecting their interests in the chaos. The predicted cost for the negotiations was being put at £240 million a week !

That's why WTO + CCT strikes me as the only sane starting point.

If we left, which we won't IMHO.

But that only leaves £110 million a week from the mythical 350 !!!!

Could someone make a cost of Brexit page with a counter showing how much this is costing us in real time

Letwin said we had some but they all worl for the EU 😉
We need not worry look at the titan of probity we have in politics to steer us to a Jambywonderland post brexit where farmers well versed on International matters grow whatever they please .Please spare a though for poor jamby, the only person [s]in the[/s] from the uk who will be worse off.

[quote=Junkyard ]Letwin said we had some but they all worl for the EU

Well they'll all be looking for new jobs then, so that works out well.

As if trade negotiators are some mystical cabal of uniquely talented individuals. You just need commercial lawyers and regulatory experts, with which we are happily blessed. The government (we) will pay through the nose for these people though.

Pretty sure that expertise in the area of trade negotiations would be a reasonably useful skill set for a trade negotiator. I suspect its who everyone we will be negotiating will use, what we used wiht the EU and what we will need for the rest of the world

Why is it that folk so dislike expertise and think anyone could just give it a go?