[quote=Junkyard ]Why is it that folk so dislike expertise and think anyone could just give it a go?
Do keep up JY - we've had enough of it
JY not my point. There is nothing inherently unique about a trade deal that a commercial lawyer or negotiator couldn't handle. It's not like being a weaver, or a particle physicist.
My point is that 'lack of trade negotiators' isn't the issue. Typically stupid observation by that idiot Letwin though.
This amused me:
https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/05/28/the-great-eu-debate-boris-johnson-vs-boris-johnson/
As if trade negotiators are some mystical cabal of uniquely talented individuals. You just need commercial lawyers and regulatory experts, with which we are happily blessed
Lawyers you say? Well those buggers can spin things out for years.
we are happily blessed with commercial and regulatory lawyers they are a) fxxk expensive b) based in the city doing eu centric work that will move in to the eu with the banks when we lose the banking passport c) tied up at the moment advising commercial clients.
So we will be at a significant disadvantage when what we can scrape together goes up against the EUs team that do this all the time are well versed in the EU regulations they will be seeking to tie us to and have the advantage of knowing they negotiate from a position of strength representing the worlds third largest economic block dealing with a lone state with minimal natural resources that is pressed for time on a two year guillotine.
JY not my point.
Yes it is as you went to say again that anyone could do it
There is nothing inherently unique about a trade deal that a commercial lawyer or negotiator couldn't handle.
I could do lots of things as well all of them less well than an actual expert.. like you and debates; you can join in but you dont do it well 😉
My point is that 'lack of trade negotiators' isn't the issue. Typically stupid observation by that idiot Letwin though
Your right the fact we dont have any expertise in the area where we are most in need and going to be focusing our external relations with the world is no way a hindrance to the achievement of that goal.
Facepalm etc
So when is the last day you can relocate to an EU Country - is it before or after Art 50 is triggered i.e. the expiry of the 2 years - we are EU citizens until then?
JY you are a right laugh...but your comprehension is awful. You also look for reasons to argue, on this matter (Brexit) suspect we are in violent agreement.
For clarity, my only point is that 'trade negotiator' is not a vocation or a profession, it is a subset of a certain type of legal/contractual professional service. Crankboys point is a valid one though, and perhaps the only silver lining for me personally out of this whole disaster.
[quote=mikewsmith ]The thread that keeps on giving...
On farmers I think 100% of those I asked were fully remain.
..............
Unfortunately not the case here in the UK.
but your comprehension is awful
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You also look for reasons to argue
I think you mean disagree
my only point is that 'trade negotiator' is not a vocation or a profession
Its is and its a specialism in the same way as surgeon is a specialism of medicine. And heart surgeon of surgeons and heart transplant surgeon of heart surgeon etc.
Yes lots of others coudl give it a go but they are not experts
http://study.com/articles/How_to_Become_an_International_Trade_Specialist_Career_Roadmap.html
Locating the necessary expertise will be critical to the UK’s success, after the country’s unexpected decision to leave the European Union.
we have weak enough hand as is without cobbling together a team of folk willing to give it a go because we dont need experts
You also look for reasons to argue
I think you mean disagree
😆
Negotiation is a skill and a profession. There are many many people used to and experienced in negotiating trade contracts. All this is done in anything from weeks to months (edit: although simpler arrangements). We have various frameworks from the current EU arrangements all the way to the WTO framework.
As for regret I don't know a single person who regrets voting Leave.
Turkeys's for Christmas is the analogy I used for Remainers, focused only on the short term (their next meal) and ignoring the future realities.
These experts we now need are going to get even more expensive in April, once Osbournes PAYE-only for contractors kicks in, and the big firms will then be financially raping the Govt.
I did no tmean that one as sarcasm.....i wished i had though 😳
For the panel's consideration: "Why Did People Vote Leave?" on The Briefing Room (Radio 4).Give it 5 minutes and try not to make yourself too hoarse!
Oh dear 🙁
Negotiation is a skill and a profession. There are many many people used to and experienced in negotiating trade contracts.
Hang on a minute lads, I've got a great idea...
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"jambalaya"
Who is this blinkered believer, and why do any of us waste our efforts trying to help him look into how things might actually work?
The effects of Brexit strike, jobs lost, holidays ruined
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36810558
The first "formal" backtracking?
@kelvin howdy my name is in my profile, we are having a discussion and its fair to say there are differences of opinion.
I listened tomthe R4 piece and have made some notes, however the small matter of a mi,itary coup in Turkey has my attention 😯 have many friends on hokiday in Kemer right now, hoping they can get home safely but all airports are shut
@kimbers thats just total cr@p budget holdiay companies are in big trouble as terrorism has decimated travel to Tunisia, Egypt and Turkey (friends there niw say its 25% full vs 100% normal) if you don't mind me saying you've lost rational judgement over the vote. Thats a failed ceo blaming whatever he can on his own companies demise
As for May she's made a genious move on Sturgeon, she said the union was imperitive (means no more referendums) and that Scotland would be fully involved in Brexit, ie we will keep you up to date with what the UK is doing.
Well that's not quite all that she's told Sturgeon is it? But then the whole truth would be awkward.
Truth is an awkward thing isn't it... From here on we should just stick to making stuff up and being selective.
You can say it, but considering some of the claims you've made about the referendum, it's not gonna count for much
You simply can't deny that thanks to the vote the pound buys >10? less Euros
Nor can you ignore that the likes of Easyjet and BA issuing profit warnings since the result.
Well actually im sure you can ignore it and just carry on
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The pound / euro rate has been there before, the summer of 2013 was worse at £1 to €1.151 (currently €1.1947). Businesses went under then too
The administrator of Lowcost said, "Intense competition had caused the collapse, but also the increased terror threat...([url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36810558 ]source: BBC[/url])
An awful lot of bad news is coming out under cover of Brexit, which might contribute, but isn't the whole story
Some airports are offering 1:1 euro to sterling
(means no more referendums)
Not really up to Theresa, is it..
Some airports are offering 1:1 euro to sterling
If you are buying currency at the airport you'll get the shittest rate they can get away with,
indeed, still I don't think there's ever been parity anywhere before though, and means it could go lower...
(means no more referendums)
Not really up to Theresa, is it..
Scottish parliament can call for indyref2 but cant call indyref2. Surely permission has to be given by Westminster for it to happen
bad news is coming out under cover of Brexit, which might contribute, but isn't the whole story
Agreed, but to post the entire quote you copied from...
intense competition had caused the collapse but also the increased terror threat and the uncertainty before and after the recent referendum.
The group experienced significant market headwinds in the run up to the EU referendum as holidaymakers delayed decisions. This was compounded by the Leave vote itself and the subsequent fall in value of the pound
Scottish parliament can call for indyref2 but cant call indyref2. Surely permission has to be given by Westminster for it to happen
The Scots voted for being in the EU, the SNP are the largest party, have a mandate and have at their core a wish to become an independent country, and have said that if materially if the situation changed in the larger UK (which it undoubtedly has), they retained the right to ask for another Independence referendum. It would be very difficult if not impossible for Westminster to refuse.
An indyref2 wouldn't make any sense until the terms of Brexit are known. Otherwise people in Scotland would be voting on a mixture of lies, wild guesses and fanciful promises, which doesn't sound very democratic.
I voted to remain and still think it is crazy to come out. I agree with jam though that the demise of lowcostholidays is not down to brexi. Iit may have been the final nail in the coffin but they must have been in trouble before then. I booked a short break with them for September and stupidly paid on my debit card rather than credit card :(.
An indyref2 wouldn't make any sense until the terms of Brexit are known. Otherwise people in Scotland would be voting on a mixture of lies, wild guesses and fanciful promises, which doesn't sound very democratic.
That does sound familiar though....
retained the right to ask for another Independence referendum. It would be very difficult if not impossible for Westminster to refuse.
Unless it had been specifically voiced by both the leader of that party at the time, and it's current leader, that the referendum was a once in a generation, perhaps even once in q lifetime, opportunity.
In that case it becomes very easy, as the prime minister simply says:
[i]
“As far as I’m concerned, the Scottish people have had their vote, they voted in 2014 and a very clear message came through. Both the United Kingdom and the Scottish Government said they would abide by that,”[/i]
And that is the end of that.
More likely, someone in Westminster has had a quiet word with Holyrood and said "hang fire, we haven't invoked Article 50 yet. Just wait a while and you may not need that second referendum...."
But the Scots vote was based in part on securing the best way of Scotland remaining in the EU. The rug has now been pulled from under them and they are now perfectly justified in seeking and holding another referendum.
was based in part on
No, it wasn't
The question was "Should Scotland be an independent country?"
Not "should Scotland leave the UK in order to remain part of the EU in the unlikely event that the forthcoming UK wide referendum results in a vote to leave"
Nor was it "should Scotland remain in the EU after independence?" As everybody knew there was a possibility that might mot happen (indeed, one of the major arguments was whether they could gain automatic membership or have to apply, a question which was never settled)
Scotland voted to remain part of the UK, warts and all - no preconditions were made, no caveats were offered, no offers of another vote if things changed. A simple one time only deal, are you in, or are you out? They chose in.
Ninfan, you must have been on a different planet at the time as there was a huge amount of debate about EU membership and that would have impacted on how people voted in that referendum. If you voted to remain part of the UK to secure your place in the EU and that it not now going to happen then its reasonable to assume that you were misled, as Scots voted to remain, whether you now wish to remain part of the Union is something that can and should be revisited. The fact that you and your neo-con buddies don't like it doesn't make it less right.
If you voted to remain part of the UK to secure your place in the EU
[b]if[/b]
Do you have any evidence that anyone [i]actually[/i] voted on remaining in the EU as a primary motivation for voting no, or are you simply rationalising in hindsight.
You may note that the SNP only began talking about how An EU referendum out vote would definitely trigger another indyref [b]after[/b] they lost first time - beforehand salmond was openly warning that a vote to remain in the UK might result in Scotland being dragged out.
The fact that this warrning was openly discussed prior to the indyref means that every voter had the chance to factor the risk into their own decision last time, as such there is zero justification for another indyref, because everyone knew there was a chance that this would happen, it was one of many uncertainties at the time, but they still voted No.
Why are you frightened of a second idy referendum?
The question was "Should Scotland be an independent country?"Not "should Scotland leave the UK in order to remain part of the EU in the unlikely event that the forthcoming UK wide referendum results in a vote to leave"
Whilst it's true that EU membership wasn't a part of the question asked at the time, the vote was based around being part of a UK of which being a member of the EU was an intrinsic factor. Therefore the voting was based on a particular set of circumstances. IF the UK now leaves the EU, those particular circumstances have changed markedly.
Put it this way: You and your other half go to look at a car to buy, and you both agree to go for the nearly new car with features that appeal to the both of you. You then turn up in an old banger you paid well over the odds for and neither of you can afford: Surely, your other half has a right to be aggrieved about this and demand you either take the car back or he/she is out the door to hook up with your best friend who you fell out with over a bar bill.
Personally speaking, I don't want Scotland to leave the UK, but they certainly have the right to review the relationship, now that the English have significantly changed the economic and political environment, upon which the original vote was based.
ninfan: I have to call you on that too.
The matter of EU membership was a key issue during indyref and was debated extensively, with the No campaign claiming Scotland wouldn't qualify for entry into the EU as an independent nation, and the Yes campaign claiming that the UK would leave the EU and the only way to stay in was to split from them.
You only need to look at the EU ref voting to see how strongly Scotland feels about the matter.
Frightened? Bored more like.
Half costed? A few days ago, you leavers we're explaining how straightforward everything was. Trade deals? Pah. Anyway why doe we want to be tied to a sinking continent. And they need us more than we need them, remember? We have controooooooooollllllll.....
Oh wait a minute, it isn't that simple...
Not frightened
Just dismissive because it was all so predictable
We all know that if the SNP lost a [b]second[/b] indref, then within days the campaign for a [b]third[/b] indyref would begin in earnest, and so ad infinitum
So I think that salmond, sturgeon and the SNP should be held to the promises they gave last time
