[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Did Alex Salmond vote ? He said earlier in the week we should NOT give Europeans the right to remain, I am guessing as a negotiation stance ?

DC didn't vote.

[quote=Tom_W1987 ]Migration is based on an equilibrium of push and pull factors. Why do you assume that people would want to travel to an economy in recession, so they can get their foot in the door, when they could go to Germany instead - and have no worries about their future.

What a great point - why has everybody else missed that? So in order to limit immigration we just have to have a recession. Brexit has provided us with a recession. QED.

binners - Member

Probably my MP was one of them. He's a horrible nasty, bigoted, rabidly anti-EU, racist, homophobic Tory ****!!!

Did you vote for him?

The net contribution of migration may be positive but the benefits are largely realised by buisenesses and the shareholders who are buffered from the costs born by people already at the pointy end of life.

Its inequality caused by succesive right wing goverments who are really just agents of business and an ineffective opposition which long ago stopped representing average joe.

Britain (well England) needs some decent leadership but there is none on the horizon. At the moment whilst we have some respect for tackling the problem, our approach and chaotic outcomes are making us a laughing stock.

Did you vote for him?

Hazard a guess? 😉

He's sat on a huge majority of 120 votes (which went to 2 recounts). Most of the people I know find him an absolute embarrassment. [url= https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/30/tory-mps-filibuster-blocks-bill-to-give-carers-free-hospital-parking ]This is one of his prouder moments[/url]. He tabled a private members bill to bring back hanging, and he voted against gay marriage as he's a hardcore christian headbanger who believes its a sin against god. It kind of goes without saying he strongly campaigned for Leave.

I often wonder who voted for him. But if you sit at the bar in my local (which I, like a lot of people, won't go in any more) you can listen to the delightful local inbred ****-wits blaming the ills of the country on '****'s', '****s' and 'Queers'.

While you're hazarding guesses on voting patterns, take another wild stab in the dark about how they all voted in the referendum? These are the very people - nasty, bigoted unapologetic racists - who's votes were actively courted by Johnson, Gove and co, and now feel their views have been legitimised, and represent the acceptance by the mainstream

So well done on that Brexiteers! Take a bow, and join us all in a rousing rendition of 'SEND THEM BACK...." as we hurtle back to the 1970's

So well done on that Brexiteers! Take a bow, and join us all in a rousing rendition of 'SEND THEM BACK...." as we hurtle back to the 1970's

Literal quote from the aforementioned "Leave are not racists" FB post:

"Exactly why are they being allowed to live here they should be kicked out and their families.
...
When do we start kicking them out"

😕

Incidentally, since most of the anti-immigration focus seems to be on "the Muslins", do we have any numbers on how many Muslims have actually come the UK through EU migration compared to non-EU migration, refugees, asylum seekers etc?

i.e. will leaving the EU actually do much to address their perceived "Muslim problem"?

I'm not in a very diverse area here, but I think most of the Muslims we know are from non-EU countries.

@binner appreciate all that but don't you think we should address current issues without inflaming the situation with further uncontrolled immigration and EU expansion ? This is a known problem which has been swept under the carpet for years, now its blown up in our faces.

So as the UK voted Leave - do we have to ban anyone not living in the UK from contributing to this thread?
Do ex-pats have to be repatriated?

appreciate all that but don't you think we should address current issues without inflaming the situation with further uncontrolled immigration and EU expansion ?

"since most of the anti-immigration focus seems to be on "the Muslins""

I don't think this is true.

I don't have figures but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of incomers are from Europe and the same race as "Native" English people. (Native is, itself, nonsense because we're all mixed race really but I can't think of another way to say it.)

I don't think this is true.

Just going from what I've heard anecdotally. Every single negative comment on that FB post was directed towards Muslims.

Granted I've also seen a fair bit of anti Eastern European stuff, particularly directed towards Poles. But I've not (yet) seen anyone saying we need to deport French/German/Italian/Spanish citizens.

I should clarify I'm talking here about the drooling racist "anti-immigration focus" - not the more general concern over immigration control.

"Every single negative comment on that FB post was directed towards Muslims"

That's just your circle of friends. I've seen and heard none of that. Although I did hear Brown have a pop at non EU immigration, but that was as an attempt to deflect attention away from EU immigration.

That's just your circle of friends.

No, I don't know anyone on that post - it was a public post from

Similarly the post-referendum marches through Newcastle by EDL/Northen Infidels/National Front seemed to heavily focussed on send Muslims home.

I've seen and heard none of that.

Go have a read of it - though you won't like what you find 🙁

I'm afraid that most of the 'immigration concerns' I saw could be summarised as 'stop beardy, shouty, explodey murdery rapists coming here!' Not that I'm suggesting for a second that the leave campaign encouraged that thinly veiled racist perception in any way, obviously....

[img] [/img]

Granted I've also seen a fair bit of anti Eastern European stuff, particularly directed towards Poles. But I've not (yet) seen anyone saying we need to deport French/German/Italian/Spanish citizens.

There's been a ton of stuff in the media directed at Polish people, Romanians, etc. You are right though, I can't recall anything negative in the general media towards French/German/Italian/Spanish citizens which seems to highlight that the common conception of "the immigration problem" is directed towards people who aren't [i]quite[/i] similar enough to "us" not being welcome.

Were Italians not the largest or second largest group of EU nationals coming to the UK? I don't know the exact numbers but it isn't as though it would make any difference to a lot of people's perceptions of immigration anyway

I heard farage was going to move onto other real world issues like giants and things that go bump in the night.

A lot of the anti muslim stuff is from your standard Britain First douchebag

Vote Leave were more than happy to count on their votes, court them with lies about Turkish immigrants and rely on them to mobilise the vote in certain areas

and yet wash their hands of any responsibility when it comes to the poisonous legacy of their propaganda

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36513022

(yes, we all know that not all 52% were raving racists, but I refer you to Billy Brag)

There was a plan after all.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/brexiters-excuses-increasingly-bollocks-20160707110366

Incidentally, every time I see that "Breaking Point" picture my eye is drawn to the white bloke in the bottom right, possibly wearing a police vest, who for some strange reason got covered by their logo:

[img] [/img]

And of course the startlingly similarity to this:

[img] [/img]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farages-eu-has-failed-us-all-poster-slammed-as-disgusting-by-nicola-sturgeon_uk_576288c0e4b08b9e3abdc483

This is a known problem which has been swept under the carpet for years, now its blown up in our faces.

Only it hasn't. What has blown up is the racist scapegoating and elevation of this "issue" to the Number One vote-gathering tactic.

DanW, I think you will find Polish people are the largest group of EU nationals on the immigration stats. Italy is not No.2, Ireland is. Those nasty Irish are coming here with their leprachaunish ways, strange celtic customs, and inability to speak the language to steal your job.
Jambalaya can raise a glass of his favourite boujelais from his Parisian villa, and you can thank him that he has made it harder for you to follow that frightful path. Thanks to his, and millions of his peers followers you need not take that horrible job in Dublin, and you need not welcome our EU immigrants and the their families to be as our next generation of Britons.

While you're hazarding guesses on voting patterns, take another wild stab in the dark about how they all voted in the referendum? These are the very people - nasty, bigoted unapologetic racists - who's votes were actively courted by Johnson, Gove and co, and now feel their views have been legitimised, and represent the acceptance by the mainstream

"So it is with the Word, with the gift of speech that it the glory of man and distinguishes him everlastingly from the silence or animal noises of creation. When he made the Word, God made possible also its contrary. Silence is the not the contrary of the Word but is guardian. No, He created on the night-side of language a speech for hell. Whose words mean hatred and vomit of life. Few men can learn that speech or speak it for long. It burns their mouths. It draws them into death. But there shall come a man whose mouth shall be as a furnace and whose tongue as a sword laying waste. He will know the grammar of hell and teach it to others. He will know the sounds of madness and loathing and make them seem music. Where God said, let there be, he will unsay." - The Portage To San Cristobal of A.H

I thought this was posted on this thread already but couldn't find it.

This sums it up for me - note the default response from the British Asian guy was immigration, but as the women points out that is because the media has force fed him this line and it's the first thing that pops into his head.

If the government stood up and said no brexit but taxes are rising and money is going to be pumped into these northern towns to build them up and encourage industries/companies to move there, then I think that would have been acceptable to the vast majority of people (as long as it was realised).

And it would have been a finger up to all the actual racists.

This should have been said immediately though, as the economy has now taken a fairly big hit.

Turner guy, here is the biggest problem for the remain politicians. Explaining that the eu hadn't screwed people over they had.

I voted remain and have generally liberal views but do think all you lot calllng anyone with migration concerns racists are as bad as Farage and extremists at the other end of the spectrum.

People worry about new people coming into their communities, thats not an unreasonable concern.
Ignore it and you get Brexit.

No, listen to them and offer them a referendum and you get brexit.

The brobdingnagian cretins should have never been allowed to vote on the issue. Referendums result in crude thinking that blurs that ever so thin red line between democracy and ochlocracy.

all you lot calllng anyone with migration concerns racists

I agree, but I'm not doing that.

Go read that Facebook thread, go listen to an EDL march, read some Britain First stuff, those particular people don't have "migration concerns", they have racist concerns.

Ignoring them is dangerous. Legitimising them is worse!

Were Italians not the largest or second largest group of EU nationals coming to the UK? I don't know the exact numbers but it isn't as though it would make any difference to a lot of people's perceptions of immigration anyway

From a chart I found from the Telegraph online:

Spain: 33,000
Poland: 27,000
France: 22,000
Italy: 16,000
Romania: 15,000
Germany: 11,000
Lithuania: 11,000
Netherlands: 8,000
Portugal: 8,000

I don't see many calls for the Spanish to "go home".

Ignoring them is dangerous. Legitimising them is worse!

Why is ignoring them worse? Can't we go back to the good old 19th century days of horse charging the riotous plebs?

People worry about new people coming into their communities

Is that not in itself xenophobic?

Or are you talking about the effect on the labour market? Cos that's the concern I think. It's clear to see that if millions of people were to suddenly to turn up in a country competing for work, it would cause trouble.

Not saying that's what's happened, or is going to happen, mind. Jury still seems to be out on if our levels of immigration are actually an issue. People seem to blame immigration for general economic turmoil, maybe because they see foreigners in work when they are out of it.

I voted remain and have generally liberal views but do think all you lot calllng anyone with migration concerns racists are as bad as Farage and extremists at the other end of the spectrum.

Who's doing that? I'm accusing Farage of being an out and out racist, and Johnson and Gove of pandering to racists, and all the above of deliberately and totally irresponsibly stoking up racial tension, to further their own aims, with precious little concern to the long term consequences of that

From a chart I found from the Telegraph online:

Spain: 33,000
Poland: 27,000
France: 22,000
Italy: 16,000
Romania: 15,000
Germany: 11,000
Lithuania: 11,000
Netherlands: 8,000
Portugal: 8,000

I don't see many calls for the Spanish to "go home".

Those numbers make sense. I must have confused Italian for Spanish, bloody racist 🙂

People worry about new people coming into their communities, thats not an unreasonable concern.

Don't they only worry when the person is "foreign" and "different" from them? they don't moan when its dave from Guilfrod or Frank from Bolton. They only moan when its Abdhul from bongobongoland. Are the BNP ok and addressing a "reasonable concern"?
If not then their is a point where this "fear of foreigners" does become racism. At best we are talking about where we draw the line not if some folk are racists. Obviously racist folk dislike immigrations

I accept I live in a bubble of liberals but I have yet to hear anyone speak to me about immigration that was not a racist. Perhaps its because they know how I will react. I am sure there are hard working salt of the earths who just hate immigration but are not racists but its getting into oxymoron territory.

Not all leave voters are racist but all racist were voting leave

[s]Ignore it [/s] Pander to this and you get Brexit.

do think all you lot calllng anyone with migration concerns racists

I don't see anyone doing that. I see people saying that making out that immigration is the/one-of-the major problems, enough to decide our future as a country for decades to come, is racist.

Cap fits?

[i]This is a known problem which has been swept under the carpet for years, now its blown up in our faces.[/i]

Only it hasn't. What has blown up is the racist scapegoating and elevation of this "issue" to the Number One vote-gathering tactic.

Only in your world Dr J....there are plenty of communities that have been concerned about it long before the infamous Gillian Duffy/Gordon Brown moment. That was six years ago and what has been done to even patronise these worried communities?

Concerned by or blaming?

Concerned by or blaming?

Some are concerned and some take it further as we've seen. I just find it difficult to believe that all you lefties think they should have their towns and villages changed immensely, without having legitimate concerns about it.

I don't see many calls for the Spanish to "go home".

But, no need to let facts get in the way of a political campaign eh?

I just find it difficult to believe that all you lefties think they should have their towns and villages changed immensely, without having legitimate concerns about it.

For the record I'm not a leftie

I hear the hard-of-thinking in my local complaining about 'all the ****'s', then they say in the next breath that we need to be out of Europe to combat this.

They think this because:

A) They're as thick as pigshit
B) Nigel Farage and UKIP have deliberately conflated two separate issues, as with the 'Breaking Point' poster, and then suggested that 2+2 = 874.33. So vote for us.
C) Because it temporarily suited its ends to do so, the leave campaign (at the very least) deliberately acquiesced in this, giving it an air of legitimacy that they foolishly thought they could just pop back in its box once they've finished with it. You can't. Its not that easy. Instead, you've legitimised racism

Or maybe they didn't even care? I doubt you have much problem with racial and ethnic tension in your neighbourhood, when you live in the places that Nigel and Boris inhabit

Some are concerned and some take it further as we've seen. I just find it difficult to believe that all you lefties think they should have their towns and villages changed immensely, without having legitimate concerns about it.

Many of the towns and villages with the least amount of exposure to actual immigrants were the ones that voted remain and have higher levels of racism - as they think that their quaint little English villages are going to be descended on by a horde of spear chucking brown people.

Those towns and cities where the local whites have been more exposed to brown people tend to be less afraid of them.

That phenomena has also be proven time and time again in the psychology world.

"Legitimate concern" is just a euphemism for "I hate n******"

Also my thinking may be confused...
I'm sat on a tram with probably 30+ ethnic backgrounds, maybe 100+ nationalities and if I had to pick I couldn't tell you who was born here. Despite being white Anglo Saxondale (with a little nord) in Oz I'm the immigrant taking some bodies job, living in their house stealing their wine etc.
The world is better through immigration.

"Legitimate concern" is just a euphemism for "I hate n******"

That's unfair.

There are reasonable legitimate non-racist concerns about immigration.

e.g. if increased immigration means our population grows faster than before then how will our already stretched public services cope with the extra demand at a time when their budgets are being squeezed?

Or, if large numbers of unskilled workers from poorer countries enter our job market then won't that drive down the wages at the lower end of the market and increase the percentage of people on low incomes?