Well hopefully we'll get to keep freedom of movement of labour in whatever trading deal we do after Brexit.
Not a universal view 😉 I'd be happy with a quota/cap system if absolutely necessary - for example EU has to take equal number of UK migrants, if we want more over and above that number we can agree that independently with points based system as see following comment on welfare. As notes the Swiss voted to end free movement so we are not alone in pressing for it. If we leave the EU we would be free for example to end all welfare payments / in-work benefits for all new immigrants for 5 years. This would significantly reduce the cost and attractiveness of economic migrants undeructting uk wages and reduce the draw to come to the uk.
have to concede that there is little or no fiscal evidence that free movement has a negative impact on the country's coffers
No need to conceed. The government could easily construct a case showing full cost, housing, health, welfare, tax receipts with clear stratification at lower end. Government has historically covered this up by including high earning execs which muddies the picture significantly
[i]Well hopefully we'll get to keep freedom of movement of labour in whatever trading deal we do after Brexit.[/i]
Yes, if we get a close EEA style deal, I think most things will carry on as normal. We'll just have no control over any of it. Hopefully then the deal gets put to a vote, and people will realise that the whole thing is stupid and step away from A50 altogether.
Ahem....scuse me for sayin like, but wasn't that why we voted out? (to get rid of freedom of movement)
So basically this whole mess can be attributed to the inflexibility of the EU...
IF by inflexibility you mean unwilling to change the rules for us when the others are fine with them and we were "outvoted" then yes they have been inflexible.
Others may think its fairer to say we were inflexible in that we signed up to some rules, would not live by them, wanted them changed, got some limited change and then still voted to leave anyway whereby we then tried to STILL negotiate for that position they have said no to.
They have rules we dont want to abide by. Neither side has been flexible and both have drawn a line in the sand on the issue is the fairer assessment IMHO.
Nothing stays the same and supposition. Probably true to say more folk object to immigration than trade though.If it had stayed as a trading community everything would have been fine.
they have disagreed with an expert on how to tackle the problem they have not denied their is a problem, have their own expert views and they are still debating the issue. They have NOT denigrated experts and this is a disagreement on policy rather than objective. I dont agree with their stance to be clear but its not quite as clear cut as you suggest
wasn't that why we voted out? (to get rid of freedom of movement)
Reasons for voting out seem to have varied, including things like 'to annoy David Cameron'.
On and @jam - interesting constructive points there, for a change 🙂
Equality of movement is an interesting one. As for stopping benefits - that could be quite harmful. So maybe something like no benefits until you get a job..? (as a compromise position - not that I'm actualyl advocating it)
Having said that - is benefit tourism a real thing?
Rockape63 apparently we did vote to shut the doors and in the case of many (based upon TV interviews and personal conversations) believed we would be sending them all home... I suspect neither thing will happen
[i]. If we leave the EU we would be free for example to end all welfare payments / in-work benefits for all new immigrants for 5 years. This would significantly reduce the cost and attractiveness of economic migrants undeructting uk wages and reduce the draw to come to the uk. [/i]
and create an underclass of non-citizens who have to pay the same taxes but don't get the same 'deal'?
This might be how you want YOUR country to operate, but we are all citizens and should have the same conditions - what next, make them live in specified areas of the country (or towns)?
I suspect neither thing will happen
Which is what we said before the vote....
.. I suspect neither thing will happen
Hmmm....I'm not so sure there. Whilst ruling out nothing in these 'interesting' times, it would take a brave person to decide to ignore the wishes of the down trodden who are concerned for their jobs. (rightly or wrongly)
No one seems to realise that the Brexit crowd committed to existing EU nationals in the UK will be given leave to stay - so how many immigrants do we all think are going to wander into the UK over the next 2+ years as they use their last chance to get in? So this influx will drive down wages and unemployment up most likley as the Labour market is flooded. Again working poor will bear the brunt of this.
If we leave the EU we would be free for example to end all welfare payments / in-work benefits for all new immigrants for 5 years. This would significantly reduce the cost and attractiveness of economic migrants undeructting uk wages and reduce the draw to come to the uk.and create an underclass of non-citizens who have to pay the same taxes but don't get the same 'deal'?
[i]
This might be how you want YOUR country to operate, but we are all citizens and should have the same conditions - what next, make them live in specified areas of the country (or towns)?[/i]
But....correct me if I'm wrong, aren't some of them coming here because they get a better deal on benefits than they get in their home countries? Are ALL EU countries paying the same level of benefits to their people? I suspect not!
No one seems to realise that the Brexit crowd committed to existing EU nationals in the UK will be given leave to stay - so how many immigrants do we all think are going to wander into the UK over the next 2+ years as they use their last chance to get in? So this influx will drive down wages and unemployment up most likley as the Labour market is flooded. Again working poor will bear the brunt of this.
Migration is based on an equilibrium of push and pull factors. Why do you assume that people would want to travel to an economy in recession, so they can get their foot in the door, when they could go to Germany instead - and have no worries about their future.
correct me if I'm wrong, aren't some of them coming here because they get a better deal on benefits than they get in their home countries?
I dunno, is it a fact? Quite important.
it would take a brave person to decide to ignore the wishes of the down trodden who are concerned for their jobs
Perhaps, but how about offering a third option? Negotiation, compromise.. anyone hear of these things?
But....correct me if I'm wrong, aren't some of them coming here because they get a better deal on benefits than they get in their home countries? Are ALL EU countries paying the same level of benefits to their people? I suspect not!
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10361971/Britain-admits-it-has-no-figures-on-EU-welfare-tourist-numbers.html ]how would we know ?[/url]
Also this view that the down trodden have taken back power is laughable, as I have said before the electoral system in the UK is far too fractured to allow a single "workers" party to emerge in sufficient force to take power - to win an election in the UK you need the middle ground - no one in the Tory Government will give a shit about anyone from the North on minimum wage being a bit passed off and ends up voting UKIP who incidentally are the new right and the Tories will look after the middle ground.
oldmanmtb - Memberto win an election in the UK you need the middle ground -
Well. You need the votes of the middle, that doesn't mean you have to be in the middle yourself- current government proves that beyond doubt.
I just heard that my dad, an otherwise intelligent man with a phd, voted leave 'as a protest vote'. He didn't think for a second they'd actually win..
words...fail...me
Middle ground doesn't exist.
You need to promise everything and take as much as you can. An ex local MP said to me not so long ago 'do you actually like any politicians'?
"Didn't vote for hitler"
He did try to unite Europe under one flag though.
tpbiker - MemberI just heard that my dad, an otherwise intelligent man with a phd, voted leave 'as a protest vote'. He didn't think for a second they'd actually win..
words...fail...me
I despair at the amount of people that have done this.
Our receptionist voted leave because her mum told her to so I asked why mum wanted to vote leave " because she is old and miserable and my dad was a racist. " ffs .
If I'm honest, I dislike in work benefits that effectively subsidise bad employers.
In a decent society employers ought to pay enough that they don't need in work benefits.
The difficulty of course comes with things like child benefit that some see as in work benefits while others see them as benefits paid to the children that their primary carer (normally) collects on their behalf.
Restructuring benefits is probably something worth looking at but I'm not sure immigration drives it.
EDIT: I agree on in work benefits as the taxpayer subsidises money to , often very large multinationals, who can then underpay their employees. we should not be in a position where those working FT on the minimum wage cannot achieve a reasonable standard of living without a state top out to evade poverty.
How we reach this point i am less sure.
No they come here to work this notion is largely a myth but it will be true for perhaps a thousand people in the UKcorrect me if I'm wrong, aren't some of them coming here because they get a better deal on benefits than they get in their home countries?
Are ALL EU countries paying the same level of benefits to their people? I suspect not!
Of course not but we are fairly midling for the wealthier nations and its a myth that ours is the most generous - we have heard it said so often we dont know the truth
https://fullfact.org/immigration/uks-welfare-system-most-generous-europe/
we only top in all spending because the NHS is govt funded and not private funded as in most other countries. If you factor in this or look at total spending we are average
The middle ground that Horatio claims not to exist is the salaried, house owning, SMB business owner, mid level public sector employee etc who benefit more from interest rate cuts and corporation tax reduction than the pensioners and working poor - they as Blair demonstrated are the ones to bribe and threatened in equal measure
I just heard that my dad, an otherwise intelligent man with a phd, voted leave 'as a protest vote'. He didn't think for a second they'd actually win..words...fail...me
I'm presently working with an intelligent and competent bloke who did exactly this, for the same reason, and was then amazed when the leave lot won. When he told me this, I don't think I did a very good job at disguising my utter contempt for the total stupidity involved in doing something so incredibly self-destructively dense. The words 'utter', 'end'. 'you' and' bell' may have been uttered, but not necessarily in that order
I STILL WANT A ****ING PLAN! it's not an unreasonable request, what are we going to do no flowery global trade bollocks! What are we going to make, sell dig out of the ground and to whom exactly do we sell this phantom stuff so we can really give the exit voters a better future
The exit voters aren't getting a better future. At least not the poorer ones.
Jews fleeing Britain - must be due to Labour anti-semitism. Oh no ... just Brexit.
So this is trending on my Facebook feed:
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Followed by some comments from Brexiteers explaining that they were not racially motivated, that they were voting against the EU not against Europeans and they felt that the racist thing was an ungrounded slur from the Remain camp.
All in all a nice sentiment.
Somewhat undone by some of the other comments, such as:
We who voted to leave the eu did it for a reason and one of these reasons was to get out of this country all foreign immigrants so if you don't like it * off.But its ok for them to shout abuse and force there deceitfull hate full Islamic stone age cult on the real British !
How you expect patriotic English people to react to this ? Teresa May already says sharia law is good for uk...wtf...how is it good ? If we went to another country and put our religion and laws before their's, how you think the natives would react to that ? Don't preach about stuff you know
* all abouttell the muslins that
How come nothing said about Muslims attacking people is that ok
Stop confusing patriotism with racism. I want my country back, I do not want English to become a second language or churches to remove crosses to appease other RELIGIONS, not races.
*sigh*
The plan is to dick around talking bollocks for a while until the ongoing economic consequences are overwhelmingly clear to everyone, at which point whoever is left holding the hot potato will have a humiliating climb down on their hands.
The only risk is that some Tory zealot does something irreversible like invoke article 50 as some sort of demonstration of strength. At which point we are all royally ****ed for decades.
"The plan is to dick around talking bollocks for a while until the ongoing economic consequences are overwhelmingly clear to everyone, at which point whoever is left holding the hot potato will have a humiliating climb down on their hands."
This, although it might or might not be done in a slightly more slick way.
I got a job in Sweden and my kids have free nursery, free school meals, health care, excellent public transport. Thanks eu freedom of movement.
What do you do GEDA?
Good news for you GEDA :
[url= http://www.thelocal.se/20160627/poll-sweden-wants-to-stay-in-eu-after-brexit-vote ]Poll: Sweden still wants to stay in EU after Brexit vote[/url]
Although exactly the same pollsters claimed 4 weeks earlier :
[url= http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/poll-majority-of-swedes-want-to-leave-eu-in-case-of-brexit/ ]Poll: Majority of Swedes want to leave EU in case of Brexit[/url]
So who knows what they'll come up with in another 4 weeks?
Have we done the 245-2 commons motion to allow EU nationals too stay in the UK?
It is at least decisive - although (wait for it) non-binding
"The plan is to dick around talking bollocks for a while until the ongoing economic consequences are overwhelmingly clear to everyone, at which point whoever is left holding the hot potato will have a humiliating climb down on their hands."
Probably the best strategy.
Unless they need another Referendum, in which case the retarded / racist masses will probably still vote out, as they'll be now blaming their new found unemployment / destitution on Romanians for 'tricking' them into voting out the first time round.
Have we done the 245-2 commons motion to allow EU nationals too stay in the UK?It is at least decisive - although (wait for it) non-binding
"Acquired rights".
Who were the two?!
Probably my MP was one of them. He's a horrible nasty, bigoted, rabidly anti-EU, racist, homophobic Tory ****!!!
Junior now has a French Bac and a German Abitur, the vision lives on in some places.
When he told me this, I don't think I did a very good job at disguising my utter contempt for the total stupidity involved in doing something so incredibly self-destructively dense.
Same here - got a London-born and -bred freelancer who did the same thing working for me. He came in on Friday and couldn't understand that nobody else in our company had done the same thing. Because we're not idiots. He won't work for us again but I'm sure he'll find work easily enough in the brave new world he voted for. I'm only slightly regretful because I lent him my umbrella to get home in Thursday's storms.
Don't know who the two were, but Johnston and Carswell were in the 245.
[I]Don't know who the two were, but Johnston and Carswell were in the 245. [/I]
Two folk protesting about something not connected to the vote? 😉
Congratulations Edukator.
Thanks, I'll pass on your kind words, Nipper.
