[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

If people were taking the piss out of me on the internet for trolling and/or making stuff up I'd find it fairly simple to just prove them wrong by posting a couple of sources rather than resorting to a playground attitude.

I also find it amusing that Jambaliar argues on the principle of an independent country, even in the face of economic arguments, when he's talking about the UK (which isn't a country) but is so totally unwilling to see the same point of view when talking about Scotland (which is a country). Not for the first time the hypocrisy is staggering.

I keep thinking of ways out of Brexit. My latest is: New PM has a vote in commons on submitting article 50. But tells us due to the close result of the referendum it will not be a 3 line whip. MPs may vote according to conscience. MPs vote no. Problem solved. PM cries a few crocodile tears...

If I can think of half a dozen face saving ways out you can be the Sir Humphreys will have more and better.

We aint leaving.

Or rather we aint leaving unless more detailed objective analysis by the establishment reveals it's a good idea.

I keep thinking of ways out of Brexit. My latest is: New PM has a vote in commons on submitting article 50. But tells us due to the close result of the referendum it will not be a 3 line whip. MPs may vote according to conscience

I'm still pinning my hopes on some kind of protracted stand-off and then a tacit agreement that A50 will not be triggered. Along the lines of the countries that are still nominally at war with each other despite the actual fighting being over decades/centuries earlier.

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_extended_by_diplomatic_irregularity ]Someone forgot to do the paperwork[/url]

SOM - didnt we vote as individuals?

MPs would find it difficult to vote in a different way to their constituencies

But not more difficult that voting for article 51, unless you think that the consequences of pulling the article 51 trigger are pretty minor, in which case, who cares?

World Trade Organisation Tarifs. Possibly yet another thread and dicsussed a bit elsewhere already

Cameron said today that such a deal was not good for Britain, from what I've seen I don't agree. A few examples, have downloaded the tables from WTO to check further

Bike bits 4% - well as most come from Taiwan anyway we already pay that. So import directly and buy from uk seller or shock horror even a bike shop with real people working there

10% cars - we must already pay that on Japanese, Korean and American cars. Not a big deal and despite 200% taxes people in Singapore still buy many cars (not proposing that but shows how able people are to buy cars)

37% on some dairy products - well we have grass and cows too

More to follow I bet you can't wait 8)

it's not just about the magnitude of the duties, it's also about the paperwork, the customs hold-ups, the differing standards, the generalised frictional bullshit at the border. All that inefficient bureacracy that we want to get rid of, no? Single market makes that go away.

Not a big deal and despite 200% taxes people in Singapore still buy many cars

From wiki: The per-capita car ownership rate in Singapore is 149 cars per 1000 people vs 519 in the UK. So we bought three times as many cars as they did.

High taxes on cars leads to some crazy things happening in island nations.

Look at places like Sri Lanka where cars are appreciating assets due to restrictions on import.

jambalaya - Member
World Trade Organisation Tarifs. Possibly yet another thread and dicsussed a bit elsewhere already

Cameron said today that such a deal was not good for Britain, from what I've seen I don't agree. A few examples, have downloaded the tables from WTO to check further

You have won know - it ok - no need to keep making things up. Relying solely on the WTO option is the worst of all the possible solutions

If the UK simply relied on WTO rules it would set its own import tariffs. But if it kept tariffs at zero with EU countries it would have to lower tariffs unilaterally with all other WTO members where it did not have a preferential trade agreement, giving up a key bargaining position in negotiating new trade arrangements. The alternative would be to raise tariffs with the EU with implications for UK prices and higher costs for consumers.

#fakecontrol

Only the WTO alternative would free the UK from all the formal obligations that come with access to the Single Market. Under any of the alternatives, the potential gains from additional regulatory flexibility on leaving the EU would likely be significantly constrained in practice, either because of the impact on domestic policy aims or because of the UK’s wider international obligations. In any case, any such potential gains would be significantly outweighed by the losses from the additional regulatory barriers to trade from no longer being a member of the Single Market.

#fakecontrol

As I recall, if we went with the WTO option, "Business for Britain" estimated that it would cost us £7.4 billion a year....we're not really saving much on our EU membership then, are we, by doing this, and adding in a lot of administrative overhead for no real gain that I can see- apart from achieving 'sovereignty', of course.

So, whats the point?

BfB were pro-exit by the way.

It strikes me now that Leave were just hell-bent on exit at any cost, financial, social, whatever. There was little point in offering any economic argument against it as they weren't listening to this.

jambalaya

More to follow I bet you can't wait

Between this, and your rant yesterday about German tax dodging bikeshops, your lack of knowledge and understanding is quite staggering.

But hey, [b]IMMIGRANTS[/b] 🙄

Bike bits 4% - well as most come from Taiwan anyway we already pay that. So import directly and buy from uk seller or shock horror even a bike shop with real people working there

Assuming that ROW suppliers will sell at the same price to relatively small UK importers as they do to large pan-European importers and that transport costs are also equal.

[i] codybrennan - Member
It strikes me now that Leave were just hell-bent on exit at any cost, financial, social, whatever. There was little point in offering any economic argument against it as they weren't listening to this.[/i]

Well put. Yes, evidently "a few folk" were very pissed off with the EU. Who'd of thunk it!

So, whats the initial reaction of the EU after a vote for Brexit??
The EU aint going to change. Really? And people want to stay with such a bunch of self serving incumbents in Brussels, adhering to political principles laid down, in the 1950s!

The world is moving on, brexit can and may lead the way to a new Europe.

Fortunately, it would seem Brussels has been infiltrated by a handful of cleverer types who are now saying that perhaps the EU needs to change.

FTSE up 220 points

Gilts no real move from the elevated levels (should be lower on a FTSE move like that)

And GBP up a cent and a half

That points to foreign buyers picking up cheap (due to the previously smashing of GBP) stock.

Globalisation .... cause and remedy ... ??

Globalisation .... cause and remedy

Not for the dupes in the left behind parts of Britain that voted out, they'll just be shafted even more by even righter wing Tory government.

A lukewarm partial recovery based on the understanding that we won't be triggering Article 50 immediately.

I suspect Mark Carney pulling £250 billion out from behind the BoE sofa to calm the markets probably helped quite a lot too.

@cody I haven't seen any such analysis and we should include the revenues we receive. Also with a trade deficit of (I think) £130bn pa I can't imagine we'd be worse off. Germany alone enjoys a very healthy trade surplus with us on high value items like cars. I recall a poster here worked for a company importing coca from Belgium who felt at risk, well as Belgium doesn't produce coca we can buy direct from the same non-WU source

TMH so many other countries seem to do just fine outside the EU and its "free trade" I have every confidence we'll do likewise.

Britain's exit from the single market significantly weakens if, we are a rich country with a trade deficit buying high value items from abroad. We are a significant attraction for others. A few 100m people substantially poorer than us not so attractive. As I said they should pay us and handsomely too.

TMH so many other countries seem to do just fine outside the EU and its "free trade" I have every confidence we'll do likewise.

[b]I prefer to do well [/b]rather than just fine - bloody great step back

We have subjected ourselves to a more challenging outlook - unnecessary, foolhardy and based on shameful lies combined with xenophobia. No wonder there is so much backtracking going on.

One or our low points politically and economically.

Odds for A50 being invoked in 2018 or later (or never) have shortened from 7/2 to 3/1 over the past day. To be fair, the next 3 months are still favourite at 5/2. And of course the bookies aren't always right. But that still suggests a whole lot of people already share my view that it won't happen.

But that still suggests a whole lot of people already share my view that it won't happen.

What was your prediction for the referendum outcome?

Probably the same as bojo and the boys, have they come out of hiding yet?

Jambalaya I recall a poster here worked for a company importing coca from Belgium who felt at risk, well as Belgium doesn't produce coca we can buy direct from the same non-WU source

That's be me then, we use [url= https://www.barry-callebaut.com ]Barry Callebaut chocolate[/url] , always have done for the quality/ease of use and time will tell how it affects the business, whilst the [url= http://www.tradingeconomics.com/commodity/cocoa ]cocoa price is volatile at the best of times[/url] it is one of the most heavily traded commodities at the mercy of the market.

MSP I have only ever reported one person and that was when I recently lost patience at being called a racist. I am not big on political correctness and the factvisnthe EU is now a club of members most pf which are substabtially poorer than us and all lf the recent joiners and future members substantially so. We PAY for access to that market 😯 If you don't like what I post just scroll-on-by

Here is a quote from the Business for Britain site

Approximately 70% of the UK’s exports, of both goods and services, take place under the free market trade rules of the World Trade Organisation (WTO), with average tariff rates at 3%. The remaining 30% take place under the rules of our only trade deal. Known as the Single Market, it covers the trade of goods, but not services, within the EU.

We need to work hard to reduce our trade with the EU on a relative basis further from the 30% figure as fhe EU is bust, its madness to rely on it

TMH US, Australia, Canada, etc etc all doing terribly. We are doing better than the EU and we are propping them up ?

Thanks soma - now I don't know what the tarif would be but you could import directly form supplier or pay the extra for the convenience, thats a business choice, i understand the power of the staus-quo, don't rock the boat etc but its my view none of that was worth the cost of being in the EU

Also is cocoa not one of the commodities which the EU ensures it protects the interests of (rich) EU refiners/manufacturers at the expense of (very poor) growers in Africa etc ? If is me I'd rather help out Africans than Belgians in this scenario

5th, I thought remain would win - but only narrowly. I make no claims of infallibility, but I'm right a lot more than most people 🙂

I doubt we the only small business doing enough to get by at the moment and support 40odd very rural jobs in a shrinking job market area of scotland, it only takes a small degree of volatility in the market to make increased duties very worrisome. I'm sure other smb's are in the same boat so to speak.

5th, I thought remain would win - but only narrowly. I make no claims of infallibility, but I'm right a lot more than most people

Go for it MSP, never even had a warning. Dig up all the old posts, knock yourself out

Approximately 70% of the UK’s exports, of both goods and services, take place under the free market trade rules of the World Trade Organisation (WTO), with average tariff rates at 3%. The remaining 30% take place under the rules of our only trade deal. Known as the Single Market, it covers the trade of goods, [b]but not services,[/b] within the EU.

So what's the score with services? Are there rules/tariffs?

Anyone?

How sweet - Jamba hurls around accusations of anti-Semitism left right and centre but gets all delicate when on the receiving end.

Hes definitely part of the problem Dr J

The moderators have been very poor in dealing with your racism, I regret not reporting you now.

I got a post deleted and a warning from a moderator for saying "a bigot's logic is something to behold" with reference to jambalaya.

So I suspect you might be wasting your time.

TMH US, Australia, Canada, etc etc all doing terribly. We are doing better than the EU and we are propping them up ?

No they are not. But note that they seek to integrate with other nations not isolate themselves.

Our relative performance versus the EU is patchy to say the least

As for propping up that is more VL BS - it doesn't take much understanding to realise that the cost of membership - even with VL lies - is not the same as the economic cost or benefit. Only politicians who are trying to deliberately trying to mislead would try to conflate the ideas

But it would be another F is KS1 Economics to add to the long list of BS from VL. Truly shameful

#outofcontrol

I think the bullying of Jamba needs to stop.. it is spreading and it all looks a bit 'lord of the flies'

Read the forum rules and if you don't like'em go play elsewhere

Well said theocb. Rein it in a bit you lot.

"And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil
By telling truth: tell truth and shame the devil.
If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither,
And I'll be sworn I have power to shame him hence.
O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil!"

I think the bullying of Jamba needs to stop.. it is spreading and it all looks a bit 'lord of the flies'

+1

Play the ball not the man.

It's pretty obvious he is as divisive on here as Farage is in the real world and like Farage he revels in it and plays up to it.

You are free to admire, defend or mock this as you see fit

He is also very fast and lose with the facts to the extent that his statements almost always include things that are just clearly not true- I dont mean opinions but he twice claimed yesterday that Holland and France voted against the Lisbon treaty which is just not true
He even claimed France voted against Maastricht when they voted in favour of it. There are multiple examples of these basic factual errors daily from him

if you keep doing this on STW you will keep getting "bullied"

I have not been online today so go knows what happened today so its a general comment not a specific one.

Oh and he said that anyone who criticizes Israel is a racist who dislikes Jews which is both insulting and complete bollocks.

If a serious internet discussion on any topic is to have any value there must be some sort of gentlemans' agreement that people will as far as possible stick to the facts, and be ready to support their views with some sort of references to verifiable sources. If that agreement is not respected it spoils the forum for everybody. So it's all well and good to talk about playing the ball, but if one of the "men" has not respected the rules of the game it makes no difference to the outcome - the value of the discussion is lost.

he revels in it

If so that would be all the more reason to stop doing it.

If a serious internet discussion on any topic is to have any value there must be some sort of gentlemans' agreement that people will as far as possible stick to the facts

Indeed, and all logical fallacies including Ad Homs are not sticking to the facts which is why people need to stop using them.

If the entire forum wants to start ignoring his every post and we all collectively turn our back on him then I am happy to join in
Till then, like Farage, I will challenge his views

Time to calm it surely

Enough is enough - the ball is big enough to play IT