[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

If he'd only been kept out of the UK, then a Latvian would've been killed instead, and that would have been MUCH better.

I think the point is that the authorities in Latvia knew he was a murderer so were more likely to keep tabs on him. The authorities here were not aware band even when he was questioned about an earlier child abduction here our police did not find the Latvian authorities forthcoming about his previous convictions - no information was shared despite the fact it existed and could have helped to prosecute him for the first offence here well before the second offence and subsequent murder.

David "Reality deficit disorder" Davis is making a statement to the House of Commons at the moment.

He has just jeered at those who did not like result of first referendum and so want another go.

Just minutes after he announces an appeal...

See, two of us can play the heart wrenching tragedy game can't we?

Ninfan - surely that might to some extent have been addressed by closer ties and better cooperation with Latvia prior to his arrival?
You are making a case for better integration for Latvians will still be able to come here even in the hardest Brexit (possibly not to work of course, but once you've murdered what's a little abuse of a holiday visa?).

Not equivalent issues - though I accept without question the pain is equivalent to both families.

ninfan - Member

See, two of us can play the heart wrenching tragedy game can't we?

I think only one person here thinks it's a game tbh

Alice Gross

Bravo ninfan, give yourself a big pat on the back

I have a lot more to say about that, but for civility's sake I wont

Yes or no, nonfat?

Autocorrect, but I'll leave it, I'm sure you know what I mean

Doesn't matter who gets killed, it's always bad.

It also, crucially, does not matter WHERE the killer was from.

How dare these foreign killers come over here undercutting good English maniacs like the Yorkshire Ripper and Fred West.

so can we sue for jambafacts too?

You can bring a legal action for pretty much anything - there's a downside of course if the case is found to be spurious.

Now there's ironing.

🙂 yes I definitely waste far too much time here ! I put a few quid into Vote Leave and Fullfact and did my bit leafletting and doing street stalls, been part of Hacked Off for many years. Try and balance (too many) words with (some) action.

We know what Farage will be wearing tonight:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-37897103

David "Reality deficit disorder" Davis is making a statement to the House of Commons at the moment.

And once again managed to be speaking for an hour while saying absolutely nothing

Still no detail whatsoever

Still doing everything in their power to ensure they avoid any scrutiny or democratic oversight to whatever they're cooking up.

If it wasn't so potentially catastrophic it'd be comical!

But to be honest with you, the Labour parties response is so muddled and impotent I suppose they've just (correctly) assumed that they're prepared to stick two fingers up to democratic accountability and just brazen it out, and they'll get away with it.

I dread to think what unworkable cloud cuckoo-land nonsense they're going to present us with at the end of March

I dread to think what unworkable cloud cuckoo-land nonsense they're going to present us with at the end of March

They will present nothing at the end of March apart from an A50 vote/bill/letter
Sometime before March 2019 we'll hear what the deal is likely to be
In March 2019 we will hear the final deal, or more likely an interim deal

All during this process we will get many many leaks from the EU side about how tough they are being

All parties can fight the 2020 GE on their International (inc EU) trade neogotiations position

They will present nothing at the end of March apart from an A50 vote/bill/letter
Sometime before March 2019 we'll hear what the deal is likely to be
In March 2019 we will hear the final deal, or more likely an interim deal

All during this process we will get many many leaks from the EU side about how tough they are being

All parties can fight the 2020 GE on their International (inc EU) trade neogotiations position

Yes....

& sometime between now & the Second Coming Brexit will actually happen.....in the meantime loads of folks are going to get screwed over & we are going to have to endure a nightmare period of politics lurching ever further to the right....

Still, it'll all be worth it as "We've taken back CONTROL....."

Except that it seems that the CONTROL we've taken back isn't palatable as the checks & balances that are in the place are threatening to derail the Gov's attempt to steam roller through a complete & utter dogs dinner of a divorce without any accountability - which, & lets be kind, they thought they could get away with...!!!!

AND BREATH.....
👿

killed by Latvian Arnis Zalkalns, who was let into the UK despite being a convicted murderer.

and what is going to happen to the EAW when we leave then? Back to the days of costa del crime? How long will it take to renegotiate all those treaties that are currently encompassed by being in the EU?

[url= http://www.ouest-france.fr/europe/ue/brexit-les-etudiants-europeens-boudent-les-universites-britanniques-4585623 ]Demand for university places by EU students drops[/url] 9%

Madame has agreed with her head that future linguistic trips will be to Dublin or Amsterdam rather than London/Brighton.

Except that it seems that the CONTROL

You forget that there won't actually be any control, we will negotiate treaties like TTIP, except as the UK is a FAR weaker party the US will write the agreement and the UK will be shafted.

@Edukator freedom of choice, if they want to pass up a 15% reduction in fees/accomodation and food they are welcome to.

Andy - they probably don't like the 41% increase in racism it comes with.

Junior has a grant to go to university in France which more than covers his fees and goes some way to paying his living expenses. He'd have to pay full fees in the UK and wouldn't get a grant. A 15% reduction (the decline in the pound I assume) isn't going to influence choice much when it's a 15% reduction for something that is already at least 14 000e more expensive.

What does influence choice is not knowing what will happen to students in the system during the Brexit and whether their qualifications will have equivalence after.

Andy - they probably don't like the 41% increase in racism it comes with.

They are coming from France where Front Nationale are the most popular party (edit no critism of individuals here just a comment about the country vs the UK)

Edukator no I can get that, free versus not free. Students will be able to stay and finish their degree, not a shadow of doubt about that based on everything said. Here we don't even kick out students who stay on after their degree when their visa has expired.

Every opinion poll I've seen puts Alain Juppé at over 50% and Marine Le Pen around 25%

[url= http://election-presidentielle.linternaute.com/ ]Juppé most popular presidential candiate.[/url]

If the FN was the most popular party in France, they would have won the last elections ( Head of Regions) .
They did NOT get 1 person elected. By now you should know that French vote for contestation at the first round of any elections.

FN had the largest vote then got eliminated by tactical voting during the run-off

Jupe may win the UMP nomination but it's not clear at all is it ? Seems to be a body of opinion that says Sarko vs LePenn is a Sarko win but Jupe v LePenn goes to LePenn

France where Front Nationale are the most popular party

#jambafact

Junior could go to a top 50 university in the UK, something he can't do in France.

I think you should link something to support your "body of opinion" assertion, Jamba, I suspect the body is your own.

I've just seen the new Europe ecology de Verts candidate. He'll probably get my vote in the first round (my "contestation" Chris 😉 ). After that it's le/la moins pire.

Seems to be a body of opinion that says Sarko vs LePenn is a Sarko win but Jupe v LePenn goes to LePenn

Could you give me a link to a single opinion poll which puts Le Pen ahead of either of those in a straight fight (ie polling for potential second round). Because I can't find a single one - Juppé would get a landslide if put up against her.

Sciences Po is ranked 4th in Politics and International Studies by QS 2016 World University Rankings

Not many universities in the World better for what he wants to do, if any.

Edit:

1 Harvard
2 Oxford
3 LSE
4 Sciences Po
5 Cambridge

Seems like Sciences Po is in pretty good company. He's specializing in German/French politics, I'd argue Sciences Po is the best place in the world for that given he'll be at French and German universities.

@mefty, freedom of movement is great.

Yay thank **** its almost over I'm voting Trump

simple question, if the leave campaign is found guilty of lying what does this do to the result of the referendum???

double post, f***ing cats!

simple question, if the leave campaign is found guilty of lying what does this do to the result of the referendum???

it doesn't change it but people could be prosecuted .

simple question, if the leave campaign is found guilty of lying what does this do to the result of the referendum???

Found guilty by who? They are not on trial and are/were not a single political party or group.

This is politics; all parties are presumed lying until proven to be truthful. In over 300 years of parliament this has happened once. There was a re-trial.

Edukator - Reformed Troll
Junior has a grant to go to university in France which more than covers his fees and goes some way to paying his living expenses. He'd have to pay full fees in the UK

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-campaign-lies-cps-investigation-misleading-voters-a7403036.html ]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-campaign-lies-cps-investigation-misleading-voters-a7403036.html[/url]

Agreed it might come to nothing, just wondering, everyone is aware that the £350M claim was a tad optimistic.

So it might be seen to have had an impact on how some people chose to vote.

And if the claim is found to have been fake where does this leave the referendum???

Michael Ryan ... strange bloke horrible airline, artcile in the Independent

Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary said coninuing uncertainty over Brexit negotiations would cause the airline's fares to fall by up to 15 per cent this winter.

The cost of the budget airline's average seat has already fallen 10 per cent to £44.61 in the past year.

But the chief executive warned there will be a reduction in the number of UK flights once the UK actually leaves the EU, leading to price rises.

Thanks for reminding me, Scotroutes. I think we need a new name for NI, Wales and England without Scotland; I repeatedly forget the Scots have hung onto some of the post-WWII social advances. How about "Divided Wengni"

Seems like Sciences Po is in pretty good company. He's specializing in German/French politics, I'd argue Sciences Po is the best place in the world for that given he'll be at French and German universities.

Yes agreed. Being a cynic Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, LSE more people outside the specialisation will have heard of ... depends what he wants to do with it really longer term and flexibility for taking a different direction. Sciemce Po plus a postgrad at one of those for the ultimate combo

[img] http://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/objects/lse:nuc298xib/view [/img]

plus ça change

http://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/collections/posters/politicalandtariffreform

good piece here

little britain, here we come...

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/11/07/india-shows-the-ultimate-failure-of-the-brexit-project

@aracer a real poll, ie the last regional elections first round vote puts FN as having yhe highest popular vote. IMO you will see exactly the same in April, FN will have the largest vote in the first round and UMP second, Socialists eliminated.

These theoretical Jupe bs LePenn polls now are worthless IMO. @Edukator speaking to various people in France actively involved in politics. Jupe is more popular with PS voters than Sarkozy but fear is many UMP voters don't like him and if FN have a big enough base these UMP voters could push FN to the win.

Anyway my point was about those leaving the UK or chosing not to come here on fhe basis of Brexit / racism etc when you have EU countries like France and Austria with the very real possibility of Nationalist Governments / Presidents.

good piece here
little britain, here we come...
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/11/07/india-shows-the-ultimate-failure-of-the-brexit-project

Interesting article that. I'm guessing he's one of those experts we were warned about? 😯

Yes I think he might be, he certainly didn't get the briefing notes did he
[img] [/img]
Time for some Tucker 😉

Yes the loss of the European Medicines Agency hasnt really been tlkedabout- didnt realise India were so big on investment in pharma though

friends at GSK are quite worried, but hats reflected all accross UK life sciences at the moment
EMA move will be a big blow to all pharma companies here,
the next round of funding applications beyond horizon 2020 are being called for now, sadly Britain wont be included in the worlds biggest research network anymore

Anyway my point was about those leaving the UK or chosing not to come here on fhe basis of Brexit / racism etc when you have EU countries like France and Austria with the very real possibility of Nationalist Governments / Presidents.

But I thought it was Ireland or the Netherlands they were choosing to go to, not France or Austria. Now there are racists both those places I am sure, but I'm pretty certain Dublin is better than the UK at present, Amsterdam I dunno, not an expert, I hear things but then again...

@kimbers how on earth can the writer talk about the failire of the Brexit project when it's hardly begun

@igm fair point, Holland is an interesting one with the emergence of Wilders, at least they had the sense to legislate that all future treaties where subject to a Referendum (a major reason as to why EU is now so reluctant to consider any treaty changes) after the uproar over Lisbon. Dublin yes a good place to be a student, not so sure about a place to work.

It's quite telling that a movie about the 2008 crash nailed the current climate perfectly

they will be blaming immigrants and poor people

@kimbers how on earth can the writer talk about the failire of the Brexit project when it's hardly begun

Some people seem happy to talk about the success of the brexit project before it's started...

The biggest group of electors in France was recently cited by Juppé as being the centre. The problem in pretty much all the democratic world is that centre parties and candidates rarely if ever succeed. The candidate elections within the parties eliminate the moderates. Corbyn is a classic example, a party leader who represents the extreme views of committed party members rather than the left wing electorate in general.

Trump, Clinton, May, Corbyn, Sarko are not people many electors would choose as their leaders, people find themselves voting for them against their better judgement to stop an alternative they see as worse. The only candidates I have ever voted for out of conviction haven't had a hope in hell of winning, Bayrou, Danny... .

I've had more socialists encouraging me to vote in the UMP elections than UMP members. The problem is that there isn't one UMP candidate with a programme I'd give my name to - and I consider my views centre right, caring capitalism. I therefore believe in a progressive tax system, and equality in health and education. Being poor shouldn't be viewed as a crime and poverty shouldn't be a trap.

jambalaya - Member
@kimbers how on earth can the writer talk about the failire of the Brexit project when it's hardly begun

Says the man forever telling us the 'data' is good for a post Brexit UK economy! If it's too early to talk about the failure, it's also too early to talk about signs of success, as you have continually since June!

The price of freedom

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37902922

Project reality (even if you don't like it)

Oh come on I'm sure Enola can visit the next 2 biggest commonwealth countries and secure some fantastic victories.
****stan and Nigeria our doors are open to you.
I'd like to remind Outters that the **** Of The Year competition ends today and normal service can resume tomorrow .

Have we done the Brexit Toblerone yet:

[img] [/img]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37904703

Surely even the most hardened Brexitter must be aghast at this monstrosity! 😆

Ah I see that issue is important enough to warrant its [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/toblerone-is-nothing-sacred ]own thread[/url] 😆

Good to see where our priorities lie 🙂

As regards the trial… nothing will come of it…

• The Leave campaign used the "cost" of the EU as a main plank of the campaign, and yes, lied about the figures.

• The Remain campaign used predictions of the "cost" of leaving the EU as a main plank in their campaign, and the (inevitable) lack of accuracy of those predictions is seen as "deceit" by most people.

These are seen as equivalent "lies" by voters, and no legal decision will change that. Especially as we can never compare the difference between in/out levels of prosperity and costs over the next 10 years… unless there is a parallel universe somewhere in which 2016 happened very differently…

[I]unless there is a parallel universe somewhere in which 2016 happened very differently…[/I]

not sure about that, but there IS a parallel universe of what Britain was like before we joined the EU, or at least there must be based on some of the comments I've seen 🙂

not sure about that, but there IS a parallel universe of what Britain was like before we joined the EU, or at least there must be based on some of the comments I've seen

not sure about that, but there IS a parallel universe of what Britain was like before we joined the EU, or at least there must be based on some of the comments I've seen

It was idyllic. Kids were polite or else the village bobby would clip them round the ear, shopkeepers in brown coats sold English spuds and there was Butlins for your summer hols.

And you didn't have to watch your P's and Q's because all the darkies knew their place

..and we had......The Austin Allegro (but could have got my dates wrong there)

And I had hair.

Ahh, the 1970s, IMF bailouts, overweening trade unions, the sick man of Europe, the rise of the National Front - happy days.

Yeah but I was a student on a full grant so didn't care.

Ahh, the 1970s, IMF bailouts, overweening trade unions, the sick man of Europe, the rise of the National Front - happy days.

Indeed a series of diasterous left wing Governments. Heath took us into the EEC as it was a free trade zone which put the reigns on the left. Ironic now that centre keft (not Corbyn et all) want to keep us in the put the reigns on the right.

Put the reigns in the left... national front...

Want to re-read that?

Says the man forever telling us the 'data' is good for a post Brexit UK economy! If it's too early to talk about the failure, it's also too early to talk about signs of success, as you have continually since June!

DarkSide that is indeed a far point but eventaully I felt the need to respond. What is clear is that the result of the Referendum is far more positive than project fear from Cameron/Osbourne/IMF/OECD/Obama etc would have had us believe. The Remainers are doing all they can to paint a picture of doom and gloom and to derail the A50 process.

I say again the problem with Remain is even they think the EU is cr@p - as Miller said on Marr she is a "Remain and Reform" person, except we have all seen that the EU's idea of "reform" is more and more EU integration. Thats why Remain lost. Even it's supporters don't really support it.

[img] https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSBEWbDnkmLKr7y03vjCwwCban8ZzZNudpn-GDGahufGH1oqwfI [/img]

Another 10 years of austerity, thanks to Brexit, will have the prisons on a par with the 1870s

Binners thats brilliant, even a model with a French name. We had an Allegro with the squarish steering wheel

@Edukator noted. Socialists want Jupe as he is more elft than Sarko and they'd prefer to vote for him in the run off versus Le Penn. That was partly my point as many in UMP may vote Le Penn in that run off scenario. Yourself and cchris will have a far greater understanding than I as you'll uderstand much more of what is said. I am looking more from the outside but as we have seen in the South many on the hard left now vote FN. Much like Brexit.

Another 10 years of austerity, thanks to Brexi

Well the odd thing is Hammind has eased "austerity" as a result of the Referendum

Well the odd thing is Hammind has eased "austerity" as a result of the economic fallout from the Referendum

Fixed that for you. You seem to have forgotten some words/facts.

random double post

Looks like Scotland wants it's say on Brexit with a vote in Scottish parliament.
What could go wrong?!?

This is so much fun!

What is clear is that the result of the Referendum is far more positive than project fear from Cameron/Osbourne/IMF/OECD/Obama etc would have had us believe.

Just stop making things up. It's getting tedious.