[i]I've always found the best way to enter complex negotiations is to prance about like a smug sanctimonious **** whilst slagging off everyone in the room and telling them how they are a bunch of self serving losers. [/i]
This works even better when you HAVE to conclude the negotiations within a tight timeframe, and the 'opposition' don't... 😉
As the QC on the Beeb noted....as soon as we invoke A50 the power shifts markedly towards the 27 members
#outofcontrol
#fakecontrol
Farage - what a bell-end of a performance.....
If foreign holidays become more expensive, that's good for areas like Cornwall as more people holiday in the UK.
As above, foreign holidays would have to become prohibitively expensive in order for that to happen.
If it did happen, what's the worst that could happen? Children aren't exposed to foreign lands and people so often; the UK population becomes more and more insular; fear and mistrust of foreigners increases; education suffers; interest in the world at large reduces etc etc.
IMO foreign travel is one of the best forms of education there is, and we should encourage a worldly outlook, and empathy with others from other parts of the world. Turning in on ourselves won't solve anything, especially at the expense of relationships with our closest neighbours.
Farage wants a break up of the EU. I honestly think he's deliberately trying to sabotage the negotiations so the UK can't strike a "Norway plus" deal. He wants the UK to completely leave, as he thinks other countries will follow, causing the break up of the EU.
The one highlight of Farage's performance was the face palm from the EU member behind.
But more people would visit the UK so we'd be more exposed to foreigners...
I doubt Xenophobia tracks currency value at all.
"Farage wants a break up of the EU. I honestly think he's deliberately trying to sabotage the negotiations so the UK can't strike a "Norway plus" deal. He wants the UK to completely leave, as he thinks other countries will follow, causing the break up of the EU"
I think this is true. He knows leaving is hard so he has to try to break it all up.
In a way he might be right. Whether it's point-making because he's never liked the European project, or a determined strategy - if we're not 'in' and we have to negotiate trade deals, it might be better for us if no-one else was in either and getting the benefits of membership. Then we're all back on the basis as each other.
He's still a **** though.
In a way he might be right. Whether it's point-making because he's never liked the European project, or a determined strategy - if we're not 'in' and we have to negotiate trade deals, it might be better for us if no-one else was in either and getting the benefits of membership. Then we're all back on the basis as each other.
Im not entirely sure plunging an entire continent and our largest trading partner into chaos is in anyones best interests*
*unless you are some sort of derranged egomaniac, who has been bullied his entire life and with a chip on your shoulder so huge that you are willing to ruin millions of peoples lives so you could say 'I told you so'
But more people would visit the UK so we'd be more exposed to foreigners...
Would they? I'd suggest we'd get less European tourists. Plus, it's one thing to be exposed to foreign people in your own country, and another thing entirely to experience other cultures in other countries
Does not include those whose idea of a foreign holiday is finding an Irish bar on some Spanish island.
More grimness
Im not entirely sure plunging an entire continent and our largest trading partner into chaos is in anyones best interests*
Yeah... it's already chaos in the UK and nothing has actually happened yet. If there wasn't a plan for brexit, there definitely won't be one for EUplosion.
Im not entirely sure plunging an entire continent and our largest trading partner into chaos is in anyones best interests
Nor am i. It hasn't worked that well in the past, once Jaques decides he likes the look of Henk's coal mines, and he's having them no matter what anyone says.
Which kind of leaves:
unless you are some sort of derranged egomaniac, who has been bullied his entire life and with a chip on your shoulder so huge that you are willing to ruin millions of peoples lives so you could say 'I told you so'
Like I said, a complete and utter
[img] https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3Mb-SKVrO-0_U9t-EfUMw-jvJV-UaepJb4TmKBkGcDHKu4pEc [/img]
If foreign holidays become more expensive, that's good for areas like Cornwall as more people holiday in the UK.
And Cornwall will need all the help they can after losing £60million/year worth of EU funding.
> "Except they won't feel welcome."
They're welcome.
This lady seems less enthusiastic:
In St Austell, the EU flag is still fluttering alongside Cornish and union ones outside the grand old White Hart hotel. The hotel's owner, Ameena Williams, voted to remain and was very disappointed at the result. "[b]We have a lot of foreign visitors here. This is going to put them off. They won't feel welcome now[/b]," she said. "It's the older people who have voted out. They think we can go back to the days of Churchill and tea on the lawn. Those days have gone."from [url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/26/cornwall-fears-loss-of-funding-after-backing-brexit ]Guardian article on Cornwall[/url]
"Farage wants a break up of the EU. I honestly think he's deliberately trying to sabotage the negotiations so the UK can't strike a "Norway plus" deal. He wants the UK to completely leave, as he thinks other countries will follow, causing the break up of the EU"
I think this is true. He knows leaving is hard so he has to try to break it all up.
Trouble is, pulling shit like that is just going to unite the rest of them against a common dickhead.
To be fair, they all have dickheads of their own - some of whom were standing up and speaking in support of Nige this morning.
We've now decided that going to the UK in a car on French plates isn't a good idea in the near future so that's two tourists less (we encountered a series of unfriendly gestures and aggressive driving during the mad cow affair). And Madame is thinking of Dublin for her next school trip.
"And Cornwall will need all the help they can after losing £60million/year worth of EU funding."
They won't lose that, 'cos its clear we ain't leaving.
Given the choice between ignoring the 4pc "leave" spread and hitting the red button the former will win.
I am a stranger in my own country - I've just watched that piece from the C4 news f/book page and I now have tears in my eyes.
This'll cheer you up.. maybe.
Another brilliantly informed voter speaks her mind:
(yes, yes, I know plenty of Leave voters had perfectly good reasons - but it is still funny).
. That does make sense but this has been an adventure beyond the realms of logicGiven the choice between ignoring the 4pc "leave" spread and hitting the red button the former will win.
Sadly I fear it would also see Farage and UKIP become even more popular
Outofbreath - 3.8% margin so not even 4%, or 1.9% swing, of those who voted. So 1.37% of the electorate or about 0.6-0.7% of the population voting another way would have seen a different situation.
Not an emphatic leave vote really.
And big chunks of the Leave voters were voting for mutually exclusive outcomes, so there is no way of implementing an exit strategy without acting against the wishes of the majority of those who voted: all the Remain voters, and many, probably most of the Leave voters.
"That does make sense"
I can't see it any other way. Ignoring a referendum will piss off far, far less voters than hitting the article 50 button without a pre-negotiated way out.
On that note, here's my letter to my MP:
Dear Mr Hunt,
The Conservative Party is in disarray because whoever leads next can only make unpopular decisions in leaving the EU.
But it must be understood that referendum result cannot be taken as an irreversible mandate to leave the EU. It would be undemocratic to do so because there does not exist a single coherent strategy for exit that will satisfy more than a minority of Leave voters.
The vote to leave was won in the only way it could have been: a fractured, contradictory campaign, with disparate campaigners promising contradictory outcomes to different sections of society. An exit from the EU cannot be implemented without the overwhelming majority of those who voted in the referendum not getting the outcomes they voted for.
The Government now needs to send a strong, clear message that, due to the conflicting aims and promises of the various Leave campaigning groups, it cannot formulate an exit strategy to deliver any of those outcomes without sacrificing the ambitions of greater numbers of Leave voters and leaving them worse off, unsatisfied and even more angry and disillusioned.
Our elected representatives in Parliament need to act genuinely and honestly in the best interests of their constituents and debate the best way forward. In the words of the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations: [i]"Promises have been made and expectations raised during the referendum campaign and it is now time to examine if and how they can be delivered."[/i] Leave campaigners need to be held to account and be constructive voices in the discussions in Parliament and in the media.
If a coherent, equitable and popular strategy for a United Kingdom outside the EU does not emerge from this debate, Article 50 must not be triggered. And if our existing arrangements needed to be put to a referendum, it follows that any new ones should too.
Ned - nice letter I might plagiarise a little if you don't mind. Be very careful with the selling of his name.
Separately, do people think if you took the referendum result and subtracted everyone who indulges in racism, whether physical, verbal, leafleting or otherwise over the time period between now and say the new Tory leader's election there would still be a leave majority?
Not all leavers are racists, but if events on the streets are anything to go by a lot of racists seem quite pleased with the result.
Outofbreath - 3.8% margin so not even 4%, or 1.9% swing, of those who voted. So 1.37% of the electorate or about 0.6-0.7% of the population voting another way would have seen a different situation.Not an emphatic leave vote really.
Democracy is giving us the chance to make a change whilst diplomacy is whether that change is the right thing to do.
And it's the point made in the quote above that displays a referendum decision must, above all else, be diplomatic. If the difference was vast then the movement could be less diplomatic and move forward with the consensus of democracy – essentially the route of pissing less people off. Unfortunately as this is as damn near divided as you can get, democracy will lose out to diplomacy. Ergo, no winners, just losers.
If only someone had thought to to apply some sort of majority requirement other than 50/50.
Or they could have made it an advisory referendum, that would have been good. 😉
If the referendum had had four or five options on it - one for remain, one for each of the other possibilities - remain would've walked it.
Well after all this thread drift...........How [i]did[/i] you vote in the end OP?
I see the flaw in Ned's letter
Our elected representatives in Parliament need to act genuinely and honestly
"Or they could have made it an advisory referendum"
They did.
"Or they could have made it an advisory referendum"They did.
With the slight flaw that no matter what happens, they **** it up big time.
Call the whole thing off - ie we're going to ignore the referendum - howls of protest that "democracy" hasn't been followed, ignoring the will of the majority blah blah. Needs properly strong ledaership to carry that one off and explain it away which no-one in Parliament currently has.
Trigger Article 50 - screw the economy even more than it already is, properly knacker things up for the next 10 years. Actually not a result that anyone (even Boris) really wanted and would require even stronger leadership to actually pull off successfully.
So we're stuck with what we've got now. Prevaricating, backtracking, blameshifting, attempts at "negotiation". Meanwhile the country still falls to pieces, once again (there's a recurring theme here) because no-one in Parliament has the ability to do anything about it.
I can't believe the frankly staggering levels of ineptitude, incompetence and bit of a messery required to get to this stage. 🙄
If only someone had thought to to apply some sort of majority requirement other than 50/50.
Saw a nice facebook post pointing out that for public sector strike ballots the government does not consider a majority vote to be valid if it is less than 40% of the eligible electorate.
Beeb [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results ]says[/url] turnout for the referendum was 72.2% with 51.9% voting Leave - so about 37.47% of the eligible electorate then?
Not enough to call a mildly disruptive strike, but enough to cause years of economic uncertainty and constitutional turmoil.
Bizarre.
"Or they could have made it an advisory referendum"They did.
Yes, I wrote this in the passive, because it must be understood by everyone. it's up to the govt to make sure people do understand.
But it must be understood that referendum result cannot be taken as an irreversible mandate to leave the EU.
Saying Cameron shouldn't have suggested the result would be acted on will be seized upon as backpedaling, no different to Farage saying the £360m was a mistake.
Both need to be said, though.
Where is Boris anyway?
"Call the whole thing off - ie we're going to ignore the referendum - howls of protest that "democracy" hasn't been followed, ignoring the will of the majority blah blah. Needs properly strong ledaership to carry that one off and explain it away which no-one in Parliament currently has."
Yup but it's still the least worst option. And perhaps a General Election or somesuch with all parties on a remain ticket can be used to make it look a bit more democratic. I'm pretty sure the hurdles required to make ignoring the referendum result palatable to the electorate will be far less than getting out of the EU in good order.
torsoinalake - Member
Where is Boris anyway?
He & Gove and Lynton Crosby are furiously trying to figure out how to spin this and probably get Murdoch onside, theyve obviously already got the Mail and the Telegraph
The Sun expressing buyers remorse as I recall.
So we're stuck with what we've got now. Prevaricating, backtracking, blameshifting, attempts at "negotiation".
Only at Westminster it seems. Holyrood appears to have got its act together and is stepping on to the world stage. Nicola is already being asked to talk to a variety of people, she has a plan and her MEPs are getting standing ovations.
It appears the "no informal negotiations" only applied to Westminster.
Only at Westminster it seems. Holyrood appears to have got its act together and is stepping on to the world stage. Nicola is already being asked to talk to a variety of people, she has a plan and her MEPs are getting standing ovations.It appears the "no informal negotiations" only applied to Westminster.
Quite honestly Nicola has got the biggest balls out of the lot of them at the moment, but then she is pretty much in a no fail situation. I'll be honest, I have been cautious of her but these past few days she has shown (and dare I say Alex Salmond too) to actually understand and care about the gravity and precarity of the situation.
Ive seen Bojo, but has Gove appeared - genuine question
Is this going to become one of those questions that in a few months time, you'll not be able to find anyone who'll admit to voting to leave. everyone will say they "didn't vote for this guv"
Apologies if this has already been posted, and it probably does not add anything more to the conversation after the video of the racist on the tram, but I am surprised that this has not been publicised more widely.
The difference in this case, is that the man knew he was being recorded by a BBC reporter, and he was a) so thick and b) so ingrained in his racist attitudes, that he could not stop himself. The reporter's name is Sima Kotecha. She's British.
Radio 4 Today programme item, from 2hrs 45 mins:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07h69n7
