wicki - Member
I to would like to hear more about the non business side of the argument
....
I dont live in a business I live in a country of people a society.
OK so of all the bad things going on what are the fault of the EU? Not what the daily mail claims but really the fault of it.
Good privacy and data laws
Maximum working week
Freedom of movement
I've started with some positive ones who's going for the negatives? As said most of the claims are bs.
eg UK sovereignty.
Isn't that all just a load of nonsense spouted by the press about straight bananas and such though.
Still it does give the gullible somthing to repost on Facebook as they get all riled by made up Britain 1st stuff
Why would newspaper owners that dont even live in the UK be so bothered about our sovereignty?
Indeed why do the billionaires that run the papers care, they are all registered in tax havens after all !?
Jambas - have you hedged your long £ position 😉
tmh, more than 80% our our assets are not denominated in Sterling (75% of my pension invested outside the UK, Mrs B very negative on € and has been long $ since well before I met her). I'll make a bet with you on £/€ if you like, very very happy to be long £
Who gets to vote? I should imagine all the expats will be voting stay.
A very good question, most expats don't get to vote in the GE so I imagine same here. Many expats are not from the EU FWIW, the people that worked for me where South Africans, Indians, Chinese, Americans and a Columbian. Leave/Remain not an employment issue for them as they have VISAs / Work permits or indeed access to a UK passport (often claimed after 7 years residency)
However those are government figures
No one is disputing the figures they are simply explaining that they dont prove what you claim they prove because they dont. Its a sub set of all immigrants it cannot possibly tell us about all immigrants. TBH i would expect a primary school pupil to grasp this and only a moron would still be arguing they prove what you claimed.
As others note when you make things up and use them as evidence they dont support and just carry on that is why folk give you the #jambyfact
Any chance you and ninfan can stop the right wing circle jerk of "lefties". Everyone knows its a cross party issue so trotting out a trot only lets us know you boht hate labour - which we allready knew.
Christ this debate is going to be less intelectual, more partisan and less infomred than the Scottish one 😯
UKIP TV broadcast cleared today by Ofcom after 40 (whopty do) complaints. Support for Turkey joining the EU is driven by political egos and not by economics. I missed this as was outside the UK at the time. I have no issue with Turkey, went last year on holiday going again this summer.
BBC piece on vote leave makes some of the same points i've done here not least animal welfare and support for UK farmers
JY, give me your explanation then. The subset of immigrants they are speaking about is EU immigrants. Isn't that just the subset we should be speaking about ? BTW the BBC piece on vote leave interviews two Eastern Europeans at the end and one of them states quite clearly Romanian and Bulgarians are going to the UK to do low skilled jobs like cleaning and bar work. Jobs Brit's don't want to do"
two Eastern Europeans at the end and one of them states quite clearly Romanian and Bulgarians are going to the UK to do low skilled jobs like cleaning and bar work. Jobs Brit's don't want to do"
Good point, how do you get the Brits who don't want to do the jobs to do it?
Pay them more than £38k stoopid, then they'll be net contributors too. And patriots. Unlike you - splitter!
The Sunday Politics show was very interesting as they takked about how Switzerland and Norway pay into the EU budget despite not being members, the interesting repost was that they contribute to the specific programmes they wish to like the student exchange Erasmus scheme (see @tmh and my own daughters who studied in Copenhagen and Barcelona). I imagine they don't pay towards the duplicate EU buildings in Brussels and Strassbourg nor Junker's private jet.
Jamby, switzerland were kicked out of ERASMUS
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35615604
the SWISS have to pay the European unis for each student, would our government do the same?
and
Switzerland contributes billions of dollars to EU projects on research, education, culture and security. The Swiss even paid 1.3bn Swiss francs (€1.18bn; £910,000) to the EU enlargement fund, designed to support new members from Eastern Europe.
@tmh, we are not going to become isolationist, we are going to become more international as we will not have the restrictions of being tied/economically biased towards the EU. We are not going to end immigration, its going to be controlled and with a much more globally level playing field.
Good point, how do you get the Brits who don't want to do the jobs to do it?
Tough love, take away their benefits. You do have to credit Eastern Europeans (and others) who are willing to travel a 1,000 miles to take low paid job whilst someone in the UK won't relocate, they'd rather take the welfare and hang out with their mates locally and complain about a local of social housing.
How can discussions about a country with the a rapidly growing and young population be divorced from economics - one of the best future markets for consumption and growth on our borders (Turkey)? Obvious economics, challenging politics.
So those nasty immigrants are taking jobs that nice Brits wont do - in other words they are complements to not substitutes for existing labour and hence positive for growth, investment and wages. We are all winners...!
So with £ at a seven year low are we at the bottom? If so, why hold the bulk of assets in £?
(p.s. seen S Char today - -12% ouch, genuinely hope you have no legacy longs there. Having said that, a cheeky punt may be in the offing. Too early for Bill to push the "for sale" button for Jamie, but some intrinsic value there surely?)
p.p.s. we are not tied to the EU and yes we are becoming increasingly isolationsist - look at post above about I want Britian to be more self sufficient. Whatever happened to the laws of comparative advantage????
Jamby, switzerland were kicked out of ERASMUS
Do you ever get anything right? 😆
YOU make As look like a man of fine probity
[i]teamhurtmore - Member
Re immigration: the scaremongering about wages is dependent on people falling for what is known to economists as the "lump of labour fallacy" - more simply that the number of jobs in an economy is fixed. IT ISN'T.
What generally happens is that [s]migration[/s] population growth increases both the supply AND DEMAND for labour, leading to increased investment, more jobs and higher wages. Understanding both supply and demand gets an A*, relying only on supply only a C- I'm afraid.[/i]
THM. I have the impression you've a better econimics head on your shoulders than me. I hope the subtly of my edit is sufficient.
And for the wider audience...
Leave [b]doesn't equate[/b] to deportations and a cessation of immigration.
@kimbers, thanks for pointing that out. The BBC piece I watched talked of University programmes and I used Erasmus as an example, incorrectly it seems. Paying for Uni access seems reasonable, as we have world class Unis we can recoup that on access fees to them.
DrJ - my daughter studied in Copenhagen so I am somewhat familiar with property restrictions, even EU citizens can't buy unless they are local taxpayers
Fair enough solo - but my comments, we in direct response to the question of migration.
who gets to vote? I should imagine all the expats will be voting stay.
Do you mean non-UK citizens in the UK or UK citizens living outside the UK?
Tough love, take away their benefits. You do have to credit Eastern Europeans (and others) who are willing to travel a 1,000 miles to take low paid job whilst someone in the UK won't relocate, they'd rather take the welfare and hang out with their mates locally and complain about a local of social housing.
But the east Europeans you're complaining about can only afford to do those low paid jobs because of in-work benefits, which you're also complaining about...
[i]teamhurtmore - Member
So those nasty immigrants are taking jobs that nice Brits wont do[/i]
I don't think there are many people who genuinely feel that way and comments like that do nothing to encourage me to participate here, in a debate about BREXIT.
As before, we need immigration, but the UK needs to do it, it's way. imo.
@tmh, no real longs in SCB (even with falls its more efficient for me to sell tag ends in next tax year due to vesting dates. Vast majority of holdings sold at something like £17 thank G-d. Long their reg cap and short the stock for return of 17% 😀 In fact short SCB ha been a very very popular hedge fund trade for last 3 years.
Solo - I was taking the proverbial*, they are not my views. I am pro freedom of movement of people, capital and goods and services - hence pro-EU membership. That is what brexit is about Shirley?
We are doing it our way too - albeit not in the more aggressive xenophobic manner that some desire.
* a little bit of crass humour is required as economics and politics can get very dry
(Jambas - I am not smart enough to understand the complex trade. Saw the other message BTW, thx)
[Jamba's] daughter sudied in Copenhagen so I am somewhat familiar with property restrictions, even EU citizens can't buy unless they are local taxpayers
So you knew you were talking blx but posted anyway. What the heck is wrong with you?
Tough love, take away their benefits. You do have to credit Eastern Europeans (and others) who are willing to travel a 1,000 miles to take low paid job whilst someone in the UK won't relocate, they'd rather take the welfare and hang out with their mates locally and complain about a local of social housing.
Jeees. Utter and complete failure to understand basic economics.
You'll probably start on about the 'deserving poor' next.
Marko
Anyone got the list of 200 odd companies that try to influence/threaten the people? I am just interested in see who they are.
M&S is one of them but they have not been doing well for many years now as their profit is up and down all the time. How many CEOs have they change compare to others in the last 10 years?
If business cannot adapt they will fail regardless.
😯
If anyone has a Times Sub the can probably post it
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/letters/article4696807.ece
mikewsmith - Member
If anyone has a Times Sub the can probably post it
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/letters/article4696807.ece
Nope. Cannot read it coz it needs subscription.
As a Government Employee I've just been emailed:
[i]"The Government’s position is that Britain should remain part of a reformed EU. As civil and public servants we will be expected to support that."[/i]
There you go then, I'm in.
Apparently
"Leaving the EU will make the UK more democratic." Unelected life peer Lord Lawson of Blaby.
Shamelessly stolen from my faceache feed.
If anyone has a Times Sub the can probably post it
chewkw - MemberNope. Cannot read it coz it needs subscription.
Ah comprehension
pictonroad - MemberAs a Government Employee I've just been emailed:
"The Government’s position is that Britain should remain part of a reformed EU. As civil and public servants we will be expected to support that."
There you go then, I'm in.
Apparently
Crikey, in the Far East we have description for this sort of behaviour but I don't know what it is in English or BritLand.
Something about quick agreement or simply waiting for the right moment to express something without being seen as going against the tide. 😯
mikewsmith - Member
If anyone has a Times Sub the can probably post it
chewkw - Member
Nope. Cannot read it coz it needs subscription.
Ah comprehension
So?
Shamelessly stolen from Facebook -
“What did the EU ever do for us?
In the week when the UK's five extremist right-wing media billionaires won their battle to waste our time, money and political capital on a EU referendum, I thought it a good time to post the great letter by Simon Sweeney in the Guardian, which he kindly allowed me to reproduce in my book, "The Prostitute State - How Britain's Democracy has Been Bought":
"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.
Simon Sweeney,
Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"
failedengineer - Member
Simon Sweeney,
Lecturer in [b]international political economy[/b], University of York"
Obviously more politics than business sense. 🙄
This bloke will fail if he is asked to run a business.
Edit: Look at his publication ...
BooksSweeney, S. (2005) Europe , the State and Globalisation. Longman, Harlow.
Sweeney, S. (2007) ‘Globalization, Multiple threats and the weakness of international institutions: a community-based response’ in Clay, C, Madden, M. and Potts L. (Eds) Towards understanding community: People and places.Palgrave Macmillan, Basingstoke.
Sweeney, S. (2007) ‘9/11 disorder and the European response: the values of international society’, in Beitter, U. (Ed) Reflections on Europe in Transition. Peter Lang Publishing, New York .
Sweeney, S. (2009) ‘European integration and the construction of purpose: building partnerships for the global good’ Actas del IX Congreso ‘Cultura Europea’ Universidad de Navarra, Pamplona , October 2007.Recent conference papers and articles
Sweeney, S. (2014) CSDP and bureaucratic politics: the apparent submergence of strategy and the implications for defence policy integration UACES CRN Workshop University of Maastricht, 30 January.
Sweeney, S. (2014) ‘The EU and security: anxiety-austerity and the absence of Grand Strategy – a bureaucratic explanation of Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP)’ Politics in Times of Anxiety 9–11 June. University of Manchester.
Sweeney, S. (2014) ‘Bureaucratic politics: explaining the Common Security and Defence Policy of the European Union’ CEGBI Summer Conference 30 June – 1 July York Management School, York
Sweeney, S. (2014) ‘Explaining EU Common Security and Defence Policy since St Malo: bureaucratic politics and the lack of Grand Strategy’ UACES Annual Conference. University College Cork, Ireland. 1–3 September.
Sweeney, S. (2015)'More rhetoric or substance at last: The European Council’s capability promise and the future of CSDP, a potential ‘tipping point’?' UACES CRN Workshop. Egmont Institute, Brussels. 23 January.
Sweeney, S. (2015) 'Common Security and Defence Policy: the permanence of bureaucratic politics in EU security dynamics' PSA Annual Conference University of Sheffield. 30 March-1 April.
Sweeney, S. (2015)'Engaging international students in content contribution to the teaching and learning process' Association of Business Schools Learning and Teaching Conference, York. 28 April.
Sweeney, S. (2015) 'Bureaucratic incrementalism versus Grand Strategy: Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) and the triumph of modest achievement over substance' British International Studies Association Conference, London. 16 June.
Sweeney, S. (2015) 'Analysing the impact of CSDP in the Western Balkans: EU strategic success or bureaucratic politics?' UACES Annual Conference, Bilbao. 7–9 September.
Notice the term "bureaucratic" apparent in research publication?
Obviously more politics than business sense.This bloke will fail if he is ask to run a business.
Please elaborate.
Well I reckon it must be Pub open time somewhere in Chewkw land...
mrlebowski - MemberObviously more politics than business sense.
This bloke will fail if he is ask to run a business.
Please elaborate.
mikewsmith - MemberWell I reckon it must be Pub open time somewhere in Chewkw land...
See my edit above about publication.
Also they are NOT proper journal publication but conference papers ... ya right ...
edit: Looking after number one is number one priority innit. Nothing wrong with that but better keep to himself ... 🙄
Memberships2006-2013 Member of British Council-appointed UK Committee of Bologna Experts, supported by the European Commission. The Bologna Process supports the European Higher Education Area and is backed by 46 signatory states.
Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
Member of the UK Europe Unit Mobility Community of Practice
Member of the University Association of Contemporary European Studies
Member of the British International Studies Association
Member of the Political Studies Association
Member of the National Association of Writers in Education, and occasional contributor to Writing in Education
Ya right ... obvious is obvious innit.
See my edit above about publication.
Ok, so he knows a lot about bureaucracy & he's obviuosly very much IN..........doesn't make his point any less valid..
He does publish but not a lot however at least he published on his own ... 😆
The trend in the academic nowadays is a team of people publishing one article according to me mates... 😆
Journal articles and reviewsSweeney, S. (2008) ‘The European Union: How does it work?’ (Book review) Journal of Common Market Studies 46 (4) 930.
Sweeney, S. (2009) ‘Internationalisation and the use of electronic media in teaching and assessment: live webinars and audio feedback, some apparent benefits and drawbacks’ Enhancing e-Learning in the Social Sciences. C-SAP On-line Journal. HEA. July.
Sweeney, S. (2011) ‘Reconstructing Spain: cultural heritage and memory after civil war’ (Book review) International Journal of Heritage Studies, 17(6) 629-631.
Wickham, M and Dunn, A and Sweeney, S (2012) ‘Analysis of the leading tourism journals 1999-2008’ Annals of Tourism Research 39 (3) 1714-1718.
Sweeney, S. (2013) ‘Making European Monetary Union’ (Book Review) International Affairs, 89(3), 763-4.
mrlebowski - Member
See my edit above about publication.
Ok, so he knows a lot about bureaucracy & he's obviuosly very much IN..........doesn't make his point any less valid..
Ya, bureaucrat advocating bureaucracy. As they Geordie saying goes "Champion!" 😆
His conference paper publication is a bit like "ranting" innit but in a proper recognised ways ... 😆
DrJ I am bit a bit confused as to why the Denmark/Copenhagen quote showed I'm taking bollix ?
The Government’s position is that Britain should remain part of a reformed EU. As civil and public servants we will be expected to support that.
😯 OMFG !!!! You really should send that to the newspapers and to Vote Leave. That's really really scary.
@mrhoppy, Lord Lawson was a democratically elected MP for many many years. He was then appointed to the Lords by other democratically elected people.
The lefties on here who support Remain want to stay in as they want the EU to have sovereignty over the UK with regard to employment law as they don't trust the Tories and they, by inference, don't expect to be in government anytime soon to be able to make their own employment laws.
@failedengineer - that Sweeney list has a lot of nonsense in it. A few comments.
[b]Animal welfare[/b]. See the video I linked to from the BBC, pig welfare introduced by UK in 1999, EU in 2013 and 6 countries are "non-compliant" - EU won't say who but its all the big producers e.g. inc Poland, who are undermining our farmers.
[b]Cheap air travel[/b] - haha we in the UK are the champions of free trade and reduced regulation, its the EU who where playing catch up and removing state aid.
[b]EU representation on international bodies.[/b] Well before the EU we had our own national seat representing our own national interests.
[b]Foundation of Peace[/b]. Oh FFS. We have peace as the Germans where well and truly beaten, their country was full of American troops for 40 years and nuclear weapons meant no one was daft enough to start another major conflict. The EU was spectacularly lame at dealing with the conflict on its borders in the Balkans, tried to pacify Putin after he invaded Ukraine (just recall those pictures of Merkel and Hollande sat like school kids with Putin in Moscow) and its handling of the migrant crises has been dire inflaming regional tensions.
Vodafone is amongst the companies that petition the govt ... you know why?
There you go ... sample size is very small but you get the idea.
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/are-vodafone-really-this-bad ]STW thread here[/url]
Jamba... why would the EU just concede to giving us a free trade deal with them? Don't other non-EU countries who are allowed access to the single market have to pay for the privilege?
I understand we buy a lot of stuff from the EU... but isn't the amount we import from them just a small proportion of their total exports? Something like 10%? Whereas our exports to the EU is approximately 50% of total.
So, if they the EU did decide to impose tariffs on trade with the UK, who would be worse off? Us who rely on half our exports going to the EU, or them who rely on only 10% theirs coming to us. It appears to me, even if by value we import more than we export, that we are more reliant on our trade with them, than they are with us. To me that seems like they have the upper hand in any trade negotiations...
Again, if we are so important, surely David Cameron would have been able to get far larger concessions than he did from the recent meetings.
Anyway, a large value of their exports to us is probably in BMWs and Audis... and even with extra tariffs on those I can't really see that making much difference to the sales!!
Just as an aside, I wonder if we'll lose European wide warranties? Companies could no longer honour a warranty on a product bought from Europe, as they would likely be considered a grey import. I'm sure it would save them money to not do so... and I think the only reason we have them at the moment is because the EU passed a law about it, but once out of the EU this would surely no longer apply.
Confused as to why the Denmark/Copenhagen quote showed I'm taking bollix ?
If you are, as you claim, familiar with DK property regulations then you know that leaving the EU would have a negative impact on the right of Brits to buy property there. Leaving is not risk free and it's blx to pretend that it is.
Leaving is not risk free and it's blx to pretend that it is.
Oh no it isn't...
Shamelessly stolen from Facebook -"What did the EU ever do for us?
Blah, blah
Simon Sweeney,
Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"
Would you care to highlight which of those things places like Swizerland and Norway dont have?
Would you care to highlight which of those things places like Swizerland and Norway dont have?
Conversely of the good things, how many would the UK have signed up for?
Hey lets get junior docs working 60hr weeks so we can see ****ed medics when we are dieing 🙂