[i]Doctors in Norway have shorter working hours than many of their counterparts in Europe and report a better work-life balance. [/i]
🙂
Good Ninfan, would the UK implement that law?
Well, the point would be that we could implement whatever laws we wanted to...
And as an EU Member could have done the same, but didn't. Find me something that the EU stopped the UK doing that was a good thing...
mikewsmith - MemberWell I reckon it must be Pub open time somewhere in Chewkw land...
My pub has wifi.
I think I'll go and find one that doesn't.
why would the EU just concede to giving us a free trade deal with them? Don't other non-EU countries who are allowed access to the single market have to pay for the privilege?
Yep.
Norway pays about 80% of what the UK does but has none of the representation, likewise Switzerland which pays approx. 40%.
Source: [url= http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit01.pdf ]Page 1, para 4,5[/url]
@mikewsmith - One that I have personal experience of was that EU rules on slaughterhouses made the operation of small scale facilities, eg. On farm slaughtered, pretty much impossible - the result of which has been more stressful travel for animals, detrimental to animal welfare, food mikes, loss of rural employment, closure of small businesses and the further industrialisation of slaughter and meat processing, leading to large scale abuses like the horse meat scandal.
Norway pays about 80% of what the UK does but has none of the representation
Norway has a population of about 5m, so has nowhere near the bargaining power that we do with a population of around 65m. We have a vast market, so it's in noones interest to put up too many trade barriers, whether we're in or out of the EU.
sbob - Member
mikewsmith - Member
Well I reckon it must be Pub open time somewhere in Chewkw land...
My pub has wifi.
I think I'll go and find one that doesn't.
Your pub has wifi? Hipster pub I assume?
Crikey what has the world come to?
Next you will have your office at Starbuick ... 😆
Ninfan... it's not impossible to run a small scale slaughterhouse though... just within about 5 miles there are two butchers who both slaughter on their premises, plus a number of small abattoirs.
The thing that annoys me is that is highly likely that we won't be able to take the blood home from slaughtering pigs... however that appears to be a UK thing, not EU.
he result of which has been more stressful travel for animals, detrimental to animal welfare, food mikes, loss of rural employment, closure of small businesses and the further industrialisation of slaughter and meat processing, leading to large scale abuses like the horse meat scandal.
Or you could look at it another way, small independent slaughterhouses would be more costly to inspect, way more open to abuse, possibility of food contamination, more chance of polluting the environment etc etc.
One that I have personal experience of was that EU rules on slaughterhouses made the operation of small scale facilities, etc.../quote]
AFAIK the UK gov't [b]chose how to implement it[/b], under the auspices of the EU rules
@DrJ how many Brits care about buying priperty in Denmark, hardoy a strong argument for staying in amd imo the pro's elsewhere will outweigh that very minor con.
@funny - my opions (see what I did there JY 😉 ) on the trade negotiations. Indeed there does not have to be a deal, however if there isn't one and both sides put on import duties the UK will benefit as we have a trade deficit with the EU. Also we will be free to explore and agree trade deals with other more economically vibrant regions which I believe on balance will be more beneficial than any loss of business in Europe. Imposing trade tarriffs won't stop us buying German cars, we wouldn't want it to as we'd quite like the extara taxes. Now I expect us to agree a deal, I am quite sure the EU will ask for a contribution. I see no reason we'd agree to pay as as above they have more to lose than us. As to why we didn't get more concessions thats mainly political, its just too much loss of face for Junker, Hollande and Merkel and the Euro Superstate project to end freedom of movement and benefit transfer and in addition the Eastern European countries would have blocked/voted against. Junker has also said he has no plan for the UK leaving as we will vote Remain - he didn't offer concessions as he thinks he has no need to. It's a game of bluff.
Norway voted to stay out of the EU against the governments wishes.so the government basically just signed up anyway to the legislation including a whopping budget contribution.
The more countries which join the less influence we have. As I posted before we where very much against Junker's appointment but we got him anyway.
@mikewsmith - One that I have personal experience of was that EU rules on slaughterhouses made the operation of small scale facilities, eg. On farm slaughtered, pretty much impossible
Somewhat related, and maybe a classic "bendy banana" not-quite-true story, but I read of proposals that would require restaurants to supply diners with sealed bottles of olive oil, rather than an open bottle on the table used by many diners. One could imagine that the goal was to ensure the freshness of the oil, but the result would have been to put out of business small olive growers who do not have the resources to make little bottles of oil, and for diners at Greek tavernas to use the product of food factories in foreign countries rather than the produce from the fields next to the taverna.
Luckily sense was seen before the idea became law.
Or you could look at it another way, small independent slaughterhouses would be more costly to inspect, way more open to abuse, possibility of food contamination, more chance of polluting the environment etc etc.
Absolutely correct. Having had a lot of personal experience of small local abattoirs over the years, although there were some good ones, most were poorly run sh**holes. You wouldn't want to eat meat from them, they're well gone. EU hygiene rules played a large part in greatly improving meat hygiene in the UK.
more economically vibrant regions
Which are?
Now I expect us to agree a deal, I am quite sure the EU will ask for a contribution. I see no reason we'd agree to pay as as above they have more to lose than us.
In what World has a business deal ever been concluded where someone gets something for nothing??
@DrJ how many Brits care about buying priperty in Denmark, hardoy a strong argument for staying in
True enough, but it is one example I happen to have first hand experience of. If we leave then who's to say that Spain won't also be more restrictive in terms of rights and taxes?
Out of interest, how economically active are the Brits in Spain v the Poles in UK?
[quote=teamhurtmore spake unto the masses, saying]Out of interest, how economically active are the Brits in Spain v the Poles in UK?
No idea but it doesn't necessarily matter. The French were hot to tax [i]les rosbifs[/i] before they were stopped by the EU, and the driver was probably political symbolism rather than cold hard cash. Maybe the Spanish will see it as payback for Gibraltar, or whatever. Who can say?
One thing that seems apparent from all the discussions on import/export if that we import too much (value) and export too little - maybe the Govt could focus on this rather than wasting the next 3 months on talking about a vote for in/out that may negatively impact our ability to actually sell stuff abroad.
[url= http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32009R1099 ]european law[/url]
@DaRC_l This particular piece of European law affecting slaughterhouses is a regulation rather than a directive. Regulations are legally binding on all member states, I don't know how much room for manoeuvre the UK government would have in that situation.
It has had an enormous impact on crofters who now cannot afford to have beasts slaughtered ,therefore they cant sell the meat etc .
And the good Doc replied from the throng >> No idea but it doesn't necessarily matter <<
Which was an odd answer since it is relevant to the debate...
br - nothing new there. our economic cycles have historically been curtailed by (1) current account deficits and/or (2) inflation
So Crofters were affected but like Gowrie says the legislation was to improve the humaneness & quality of slaughterhouse.
On the flipside Crofters [url= http://www.nfus.org.uk/news/2016/february/start-gun-fired-eu-membership-debate ]probably do quite well[/url] out of the EU...
[I]br - nothing new there. our economic cycles have historically been curtailed by (1) current account deficits and/or (2) inflation [/I]
Oh, ok - and this cycle has been downward since the late 90's it seems...
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/current-account
Longer than that....much longer
UK characterised by deficits on balance of trade and current account
the UK will benefit as we have a trade deficit with the EU.
We also export over 50 % and them 9%- there is no way to spin this loss [ I do agree it wont all stop] as more beneficial for us than the, unless one want to rely on jambyfacts.
Also we will be free to explore and agree trade deals with other more economically vibrant regions which I believe on balance will be more beneficial than any loss of business in Europe.
WHilst this may turn out to be true over the fullness of time there can be no doubt that the short to medium term implications are not good. We cannot just swap markets instantly
As noted above its somewhat vague on where /what we are expanding into - and we could do this now anyway but have chosen not to. I would assume its because its harder/less profitable unless business just trades with europe out of duty rather than market/profit.
I accept Gowries point completely. My main point is that this legislation and it's implementation is driven by the EU.Much as I would like to I can't blame the UK government for it nor can I credit the Scottish Government for it. As a side issue I'm disappointed that they didn't make allowances for people who live in remote areas and the regulation has effectively removed a source of income from areas where employment is already hard to find. I am not a crofter but I don't think you'll find many of them at the RHS
Also we will be free to explore and agree trade deals with other more economically vibrant regions which I believe on balance will be more beneficial than any loss of business in Europe.
There is nothing stopping that from happening now, apart from the fact that those "more economically vibrant regions" aren't half as economically vibrant as some fantasise about and are a hell of a lot more complicated to trade with, they also tend to be less friendly and less stable.
No new business opportunities with other regions will magically open up because UK plc leave europe, we already trade with those regions, and the chances are we will have less clout than EU deaals already in place.
Almost invariably (certainly in my line of work) the UK's problems with EU legislation stems from our implementation of the EU directives as opposed to the directives themselves. Which doesn't reflect well on us really.
MSP +1 (largely)
Careful now we almost agreed and on economics of all things 😉
Jamba... I am not sure it works like that.
Lets try an example:
Country A exports 50bn to Country B and imports 100bn from them. This is 90% of Country A's exports, but is only 10% of Country B's.
Now, according to you, Country A has all the power as the balance of trade is in their favour.
However, any change in the amount of trade has a far bigger impact on Country A than it does on Country B.
If there was a sudden trade dispute between them, and they stopped supplying to each other, the immediate impact would be a loss of half of Country A's exports, but only a 10% loss in Country B's.
I would postulate that the impact on the economy of Country A would be massive, whereas Country B might have some problems, but nothing like those of Country A.
In this case I would say that Country B has the upper hand in any negotiations on resolving this trade dispute.
I appreciate that this is an extreme example, but I don't understand why the relationship between the UK and EU would be greatly different.
Now, another question....
Obviously there are two quite extreme opinions on this matter...
1) one side saying that we won't necessarily be allowed to operate in the single market, although we might be allowed in under some terms eg. payment etc...
2) one side saying that we will definitely have access to the single market and there won't be an issue.
Now, what is the backup plan for each camp. I'd wager that the first group would actually be quite happy if we did manage to get easy access to the single market.
However, the second group currently don't even seem to entertain the possibility of the idea that we won't have easy access. So if the worst does happen and there is no access, what is the back up plan for them?
I'll just let you have a look at this. It's persuasive stuff....
Er...I....Ahhh....Just.....Wow.
Jesus wept binners, please tell me thats really just another mash link...
binners - Member
I'll just let you have a look at this. It's persuasive stuff....
They can sing better than me ... 😛
Is that Farage and Bozo ??
[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/23/ukip-leave-eu-song-brexit-music-video-three-lions-baddiel-and-skinner_n_9296564.html ]you mean it doesnt make your heart swell with patriotic pride?[/url]
😆
Tears in my eyes and swelling with #strangest
BInners you bad man you.
31 seconds until my eyes and ears started bleeding. On that basis, I'm In.
[i]Almost invariably (certainly in my line of work) the UK's problems with EU legislation stems from our implementation of the EU directives as opposed to the directives themselves. Which doesn't reflect well on us really. [/i]
Yep. Never worked in/with the Public Sector and/or Politicians then? 🙂
Yes lots, that's kinda the point I was making.
It ain't the EU that's the problem it's our lot. And giving them the keys to the candy store without supervision has the potential to end in disaster.
The thing with Europe is that it's good at providing long term framework legislation which UK government is generally crap at. And so much of what we do has cross border implications that localised policy is largely pointless unless it's more widely joined up.
That song? is just, wow !
Could they possibly produce a worse advert for the out campaign, what else have they got up their sleeves......
[img] 
[/img]
Someone post pics of the EU ZM bureaucrats please ... 😛
@binners thats a shocker ! I think the Cheeky Girls might have got away with that but UKIP wouldn't hire two Romanians 🙂 As I said there is a reason I'm with Vote Leave Take Control.
@funny I guess plan B for Leave in the event of no trade deal is to apply same import duties as does the EU and we end up with say £10bn pa more tax revenue than we pay as we run a trade deficit. As for the "importance" argument I hear your point but I still say as one of the 3 powerhouse economies of the EU we are very important to them.