[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Out of interest then - how would the remainers on here feel if we had a Norway style deal?

Or Swiss, I understand Swiss snow is also acceptable to some Leavers.

All the legal experts this morning are saying that the appeal is pretty pointless, and the verdict will be exactly the same, as its not as if its open to interpretation. Its the constitution, and the law is the law. Full stop

I do think that all the the foaming-at-the-mouth nutters having a red-faced hissy fit about yesterdays verdict, and trying to bully the judiciary will have the opposite effect, and entrench their views further.

At which point, I presume the Mail, Express et al will be calling for us all to get on the streets, and start knocking on doors, and burning books 'n shit

[i]I was talking to a mate in the pub past night who is pro-Brexit. His main motivation for leaving was to give the UK the ability to independently strike trade deals beyond the EU. He has no problem with freedom of movement and would be glad if that could continue. [/I]

Is your mate an expert in these matters, as in, does he understand the impact of us possibly losing tariff-free access to the worlds largest trading bloc in the meantime while we somehow sort these trade deals out?

FWIW the US-Australia Free Trade agreement took years (1945-2005 with the heavy lifting taking place 1997 onwards) to get in place and is negative to Australia, like you'd expect any deal with a far stronger opponent.

A norway style deal? Sounds fine to me. We get legistlation sent to us by fax machine that we have no ability to influence & simply have to incorporate into our legislature. We also get to pay for that privilege and have no influence over the size of that payment. What's not to like? I suppose we'll need to find somewhere that sells fax machines first.

You:

Your premise is false, I never said what you claim, and even if i did, your conclusion is false as it just does not follow that the Brexit vote was greater because they dont want to.
I dont want to work for a living. Apparently to you this means I dont work for a living.

According to this thread all racists voted leave. I didn't. Therefore as long as all racists voted leave I can't be a racist

His main motivation for leaving was to give the UK the ability to independently strike trade deals beyond the EU. He has no problem with freedom of movement and would be glad if that could continue.

Yep, I've heard quite a few racists quoting drivel like that in a bid to not sound like racists.

None of the options are as good as the one we had, but as they say in France - tant pis!

Just wrote to DB to get my euros back, if there are any left. So hope th £ plummets again in the next few days.

None of the options are as good as the one we had

I think you'll find that whatever we end up with will be rendered superior by being painted with a union jack and a veneer of sneering intolerance and colonial arrogance

Get with the programme traitor!!!!

Tory Eurosceptics would be apoplectic at the thought of the Norway option.

what if we call it the Churchill Bulldog spitfire empire option?

Am I the only person that starts to feel like a bit of a bully when I debate with Brexiters? It feels like when you agree to a fight with this guy...

[img] [/img]

Yep, I've heard quite a few racists quoting drivel like that in a bid to not sound like racists.

"You have to be pretty bad at being racist to want to end immigration from predominantly white countries in favour of predominantly non-white countries."

This. Not that anyone ever really explained how Brexit would end migration from and to the UK from within the EU.

You have to be pretty bad at being racist to want to end immigration from predominantly white countries in favour of predominantly non-white countries.

but plenty voted to keep out the Turks....

Norway deal works for me as does a Swiss deal, In fact if we can actually get Swiss style railways and roads count me in! (oh we still have westminster, so were still f***ed!)

You have to be pretty bad at being racist to want to end immigration from predominantly white countries in favour of predominantly non-white countries.

Ive just had this very debate with a ranting brexiter on facebook

my (imnotracistbut...) sister-in-law justified voting brexit on the basis that if we left then Merkel wouldnt be able to send 1000s of rapist syrian refugees here, like she wants to 😯

outofbreath - Member
"Out if breath - just out of interest you understand, do you consider yourself a racist?"
According to this thread all racists voted leave. I didn't. Therefore I can't be a racist.

Fair enough. Just to check you're not a self identifying racist who voted remain and is now feeling disenfranchised?

I've given up taking conversations about Brexit seriously.

You have to be pretty bad at being racist to want to end immigration from predominantly white countries in favour of predominantly non-white countries.

I genuinely believe that most Leave voters don't even understand the difference.

cooligan - chat* with the more rabid ySers, they make Brexshiteers seem well-informed and rational

* !!

I've given up taking conversations about Brexit seriously.

Indeed, yesterday was merely a new low. Its almost got to IS levels. Not far now. Both debates are now a parody of themselves. Its breathtakingly awful.

I hope the wife got the brains in that family Kimbers ...as she chose you the jury is out on that one 😉

Norway deal works for me as does a Swiss deal

Not sure the Swiss deal is that great. Spending a bit of time wrangling about the exact form of Swiss work permit I need for my current *internal* company assignment (where we have branches both here and in Switzerland), at a cost of about 1100 CHF. Definitely worse than going to an EU country.

THM - a year ago I don't think I'd even contemplate agreeing with you on politics as often as I do now, me being a confirmed liberal lefty, champagne socialist type. So there's a positive.

Though to be fair I've even managed to contemplate voting LibDem.

I was involved in a fairly heated FB debate on the subject yesterday, I was accused of using rather broad brushstrokes when I labelled the majority of leave voters racists, xenophobes and bigots.

So I offered to excuse anyone from my board brushstrokes if they could give me a non-racist, non-xenophobic and non-bigoted reason for voting leave.

This is what my main combatant replied:

[i]My opinions are based on life experience not what I've read in a book
Go and have a walk round most towns in east lancs at night and see how safe u feel in multicultural Britain those are the reasons I voted to leave and rightly so as many other cultures don't have the same values![/i]

So basically, he thought his vote would get rid of the dangerous darkies in Burnley.

He claims not to be racist and he claims to understand enough about immigration to have a valid opinion!

Junkyard - lazarus
I hope the wife got the brains in that family Kimbers ...

dont worry its my brothers wife! my wifes a scouser so her family did the opposite of what murdoch advised and voted in !

I genuinely believe that most Leave voters don't even understand the difference.

So you think all racists voted for the least racist option but they all did so by mistake. Meanwhile all the leavers voted for the most racist option and did so fully understanding it was the most racist option, but they're not racist.

Yeah, that'll be it.

So even you think all racists voted for the least racist option but they all did so by mistake.

I've tried several times, but I can't get this sentence to make sense. So I'm not sure what you're accusing me of, but as far as making a mistake, yes - I think a huge proportion of Leave voters did so thinking that we'd have less Asians if we were outside Europe.

My example above bears this out.

So I offered to excuse anyone from my board brushstrokes if they could give me a non-racist, non-xenophobic and non-bigoted reason for voting leave.

I didn't vote leave but if you're looking for one reason then the one sometimes cited is the ability to do speedy trade deals with foreign nations like India and import a talented English speaking workforce from places like India. If it weren't for the difficulty of getting southern EU states to agree to a deal with India we'd already have one.

Shouldn't you have researched the case for and against *before* you voted, not on FB months afterwards?

are you having a bet to see how many posters posts you can completely misconstrue and then make up an argument from that they never said and the posts dont support?

is it friday down the pub day at work for you?

THM - a year ago I don't think I'd even contemplate agreeing with you on politics as often as I do now, me being a confirmed liberal lefty, champagne socialist type. So there's a positive. Though to be fair I've even managed to contemplate voting LibDem.

Not being tied to any political party means I have a varied selection of bedfellows at different times !! But yes, igm, nice to agree with you - and nothing wrong with Champagne!! Plus I am sympathetic to the plight of the LDs too and the crap they now have to carry (unfairly IMO). Just a pity that they represent Liberalism (with its heavy gov involvement) not Libertarianism!! 😉

Wow, I'm kinda new around here, so trying to get to grips with different posters' syles of debating, but I think I'm going to bow out of any discussion with Outofbreath... People like you make the Syria situation look straightforward.

Just read something on India. This ceo of a big Indian it business not happy with a hard Brexit. More costs and more hassle.

Though to be fair I've even managed to contemplate voting LibDem.

I think there are quite a lot of people presently in that unlikely position. Myself included.

Basically as they seem the only ones who aren't totally barking 😯

Dont they all have bad breath from the veggie diet and wear sandals with socks too? (could be wrong on both)

I'm prepared to overlook that as long as they're not

a) Marxists
b) Fascists

which appear to be the only two other rather retro 1930's options available at the moment

There was me expecting you to mock them for the leader being a born again christian who flip flops about between liberal and christian on gay rights 😉

I didn't vote leave but if you're looking for one reason then the one sometimes cited is the ability to do speedy trade deals with foreign nations like India and import a talented English speaking workforce from places like India. If it weren't for the difficulty of getting southern EU states to agree to a deal with India we'd already have one.

and yet....

"If people are not going to be able to travel," he told me, " and if the visas today restrict you, that you need to be either a UK visa or a European visa...it will not be possible to deliver business only from the UK."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37869225

It's the LibDems - he's not really a leader, more just the guy who books the room for the next meeting

I'm happy with that over both the alternatives at the moment

Perhaps that's why he's a lib deb?

If they had any sense, the lib dem would come out as pro eu. It might not win them a general election, but it would increase their chances.

If they had any sense, the lib dem would come out as pro eu

I thought they had? ISTR Farron being very pro EU on the radio a while back.

Not as far as saying they did not want Brexit for example.

If they had any sense, the lib dem would come out as pro eu. It might not win them a general election, but it would increase their chances.

Short of turning up to parliament in suits made from the EU flag I don't think they could make their position any clearer

If they had any sense, the lib dem would come out as pro eu

They don't have to 'come out'. Its always been their position. This led to a 20% swing at the Witney byelection.

They're going to challenge Zac Goldsmith (who's a fervent leaver) on that platform, in his constituency who voted 75% in favour of remain.

He thinks its going to be a vote about Heathrow expansion, he can walk it, then leave it a bit, and then re-joins the Tory party. I think he might well be in for a bit of a shock. He will be if the lib dems have owt to do with it. They want to make it a re-run of the referendum. Or a comment on it, at least

His cynical stunt may be about to spectacularly backfire. Lets hope so eh? He's an cynical racist ****!!

If Farron is halfway competent at booking the room every week, hes looking like a good option compared to the others

Corbyn, I still like but hes not getting his message across (or its not what I thought it was)

May, well her series of disasters as home sec were a warm up for her true magnum opus.... Brexishambles

So that leaves Farron, says what I want to hear, but born again christian, oh balls

His cynical stunt may be about to spectacularly backfire. Lets hope so eh?

Trouble is Zac the racist is very popular in richmond- hes a man of the people there (ie trust fund bigger than frances gdp)

5thElefant - Member

You have to be pretty bad at being racist to want to end immigration from predominantly white countries in favour of predominantly non-white countries.

This is absolute horseshit, though- and it's a perfect example of the sort of superficially-logical horseshit that leavers love.

Cutting EU immigration to increase non-EU immigration would favour them. So could increasing non-EU immigration. But neither of these are on the cards. What's planned is to cut non-EU immigration, and cut EU immigration. Both are worse off, it's not in either's favour. But hey, I'm sure they'll be pleased that it's "fair"

That isn't "in favour of predominantly non-white countries"- they just get the blunt end of the shitty stick, while other people get the pointy end.

Short of turning up to parliament in suits made from the EU flag I don't think they could make their position any clearer

The Liberal Democrats remain a proudly pro-European party.

ame thing they will campaign to stay
Not sure how you have missed all this - I guess they really do get no media air time

This is absolute horseshit, though

The best you can say is they want to decide who can come here and the most likely answer is no one.

I’m actually p155ing my pants.

There was nothing concrete offered by the "Leave" campaign as a real benefit to the UK that would be gained by leaving.

None. Read up on what the "out" campaign managers thought of "facts".

There was speculation that things "would be better". There was a "hope" things would be "better", but nothing to back it up. If I (we) are wrong, where the hell is it?

If things we're "that bad", I'd have considered a leave vote - better a change of hell than the same hell....

But all we got was: "If you just trust us, things will be better". I have heard that before.

But as you zoom in, as you examine each Brexiteers "hopes & dreams" for leaving, it becomes clear it is a horrific pantheon of fascism:

"Get rid".
"Throw out".
"Ban".
"Get out".
"Stop".
"Britain First"

This isn't a politics. This isn't the voice of change: it's bloody fascism: An absence of politics. An absence of discussion. An absence of tolerance.

"Just shut up and get on with it".

Where's the democracy in that?

What beggars belief is that the remainers aren't pissing their pants.

Non UK and "thinking" of leaving? You're a mug - get out before your thrown out (but we'll "look after" your money and house).

Think a few "robust" discussions on Facebook or stern words at a "hustings" is going to turn heads? Mugs.

Go read upon how "they" tried to "discuss" with the National Socialists in Germany - or the "National Socialists" of any age, any country. A bit more worried, now?

Is no one worried that their Facebook exchanges, their Singletrack quips & amusing tweets won't shortly be used as "evidence"?

"Oh but it won't happen here! It can't happen here, [s]Adolf [/s][s]Theresa [/s][s]Nigel [/s]"they" wouldn't allow it."

Yeah, right.

You believe things are "complicated", things are "nuanced". Quid pro Quo... Give an take. Checks and balances. Subtle differences and labouring to agreements. You wouldn't expect to dictate terms and have people “just get on with it”, would you?

Now look into their eyes, and see how simple it is to them.

P155ing your pants now?

EDIT

FFS there their there their there their.

"The best you can say is they want to decide who can come here a the most likely answer is no one."

Doesn't sound racist to me.

[img] [/img]

-1 and light snow in Sundsvall, Sweden. -3 and sunny with a dusting of snow on the ground in Helsinki.

"to cut non-EU immigration,"

You can't cut non-EU immigration. It's been pared to the bone.

You probably can't cut EU immigration either because we need the workforce. Perhaps you can pick and choose a bit but the quality of our imported work force is already sky high. We cream off the best without the Govt helping to choose.

outofbreath - Member

You can't cut non-EU immigration. It's been pared to the bone.

Tell Amber Rudd that.

BaronVonP7 - Member

Is no one worried that their Facebook exchanges, their Singletrack quips & amusing tweets won't shortly be used as "evidence"?

"Oh but it won't happen here! It can't happen here, Adolf Theresa Nigel "they" wouldn't allow it."

Yeah, right.

This very thought has crossed my mind, so much so that I've considered shutting down from social media.

Is no one worried that their Facebook exchanges, their Singletrack quips & amusing tweets won't shortly be used as "evidence"?

I'll be gone before it gets that bad.

Putting money aside.

I'll be gone before it gets that bad.

Putting money aside.

Will you send food parcels? Even some brake pads. Or gear cables. Don't forget us, please!

You can't cut non-EU immigration. It's been pared to the bone.

More non-EU than EU immigration last time I checked. That doesn't mean it's either too low or too high. Or right.

b r said:
Is your mate an expert in these matters, as in, does he understand the impact of us possibly losing tariff-free access to the worlds largest trading bloc in the meantime while we somehow sort these trade deals out?

No of course he's not an expert. Are any of us?

He initially started off as a Remainer but did his research, weighed it up and came to a rational non-racist conclusion that happened to be different from mine. I fully respect that and it makes for interesting chat in the pub 😀

The important point is that it is perfectly possible to have rational carefully considered well-thought-out reasons to leave.

My exit strategy is in place it's partially mental partially geographical I. E cease giving a * most of the time and * off to south of France for the rest of the time (visa permitting)

Incidentally, regarding trade deals, I read an article the other day that mentioned that [i]"Britain currently has X trade deals with other countries"[/i] (can't remember what X was. 30-odd I think)

Question: are all of those existing deals through the EU? Or do we have any historical ones that pre-date our EU membership and are still active?

Will you send food parcels? Even some brake pads. Or gear cables. Don't forget us, please!

Might not be able to. They could trace me.

My Dad's great aunt or something married one of Henry Ford's sons, the story goes. She used to send back odd gifts like a lush fur coat, pearls or an oil painting - this was to a poor South Wales mining town. What's the use of that, they thought, when the hell am I ever going to wear a fur coat? They gave them to the kids to play with.

Dawned on them later that, unable to send money, she was sending the most expensive stuff she could find with the idea that they'd sell it. D'oh.

so you could send us XTR kit

when £10 = 1$ I could feed my family for a month of some m9000 cranks

What the Brexiteers fail to recognise is that immigration is the result - not the cause - of what they perceive (or have been told my the Daily Mail) is Broken Britain.

For decades, the Liberal Left have told us that we're all entitled to 'respect', whether we've earned it or not. And now we have a generation of Britons that think they're great because they've been told they're great. They think that any 'menial' work is beneath them, so they're happy to accept benefits instead. And they still think they deserve respect??

Sorry sunshine, I'll give my respect to someone who gets of his backside and does whatever job is necessary, even if he and his family are only 30 or 40 quid a week better off than if he was watching Jeremy Kyle repeats all day.

I'll give my respect to the Pole that leaves his home, his family, his country, and travels here and works the clock round for minimum wage, living in squalor so his family can have a better life.

It's people like that who make a country great, not the lazy b*****ds that play the system to avoid getting work, yet enjoy a relatively comfortable lifestyle at the state's expense.

And all the while, the press tell them that it's immigrants who are to blame for their circumstances, their lack of a job, their lack of prospects.

And then, some idiot gives them the chance to bet everything on a single hand of blackjack. Stick or twist? What's the stake? Who knows... What's the prize? Who knows. And the silly twunts twisted. 🙁

Kimbers, down the market, later:

[img] [/img]

what they perceive (or have been told my the Daily Mail) is Broken Britain.
...
It's people like that who make a country great, not the lazy b*****ds that play the system to avoid getting work, yet enjoy a relatively comfortable lifestyle at the state's expense.

Sounds like you are a victim of exactly the same BS press agenda to be honest. They've got you blaming folk on benefits instead of immigrants but it's all part of the same peddled hatred and blame-shifting.

They've got you blaming folk on benefits instead of immigrants...

Back in town, local UKIP councillor Stephen Raven gives a blunt answer why many locals refuse to do the picking and packing agriculture jobs: because "we're lazy".

Er... That doesn't [i]sound [/i]like we're getting played... Sounds brutal, but possibly true.

They've got you blaming folk on benefits instead of immigrants but it's all part of the same peddled hatred and blame-shifting.

It's not about blame, it's about reasons. The reason we have have immigration is due to skills shortages in some sectors, and labour shortages in unskilled sectors. If that is the case, there's no genuine reason for unemployment of those deemed fit to work.

I can't remember where I read the statistics, so I'm afraid I can't provide a link, but Leave votes amongst the unemployed were significantly higher than in the working population.

So the unemployed were voting for Brexit; we kinda know that immigration was the biggest deciding factor; and their justification is that foreigners are taking their jobs!

So the last bit is right, but for some reason, they seem to have completely forgotten the bit where they have the opportunity to take those jobs, but they haven't.

You can't cut non-EU immigration. It's been pared to the bone.

CMD's target for total net migration - tens of thousands - so lets say 30k (makes the maths easy)
Current pared-to-the-bone (sic) non-EU migration - 188k
Actual 6x target (leaving aside EU migration)
Not exactly pared to the bone

[apologies to clod for bringing data into the debate = please ingore as it will be wrong, biased and irrelevant]

The reason we have have immigration is due to skills shortages in some sectors, and labour shortages in unskilled sectors

No don't you start bringing the truth into the debate now - repeat after me, "British jobs for British workers", "They steal our jobs and depress our wages", "Kick the buggers out". Twenty times should do it for a first offence.

My opinions are based on life experience not what I've read in a book. Go and have a walk round most towns in east lancs at night and see how safe u feel in multicultural Britain those are the reasons I voted to leave and rightly so as many other cultures don't have the same values!

Haha yet the same folks who feel perfectly safe surrounded by the fat, lager binging, sunburnt, swearing Brits on the average Ryanair flight back from the Costa del Sol!

The same folks who feel happily comfortable surrounded by the swearing, racist, fighting, fag smoking, casually homophobic, pie eating football supporters at your average cup derby. Engerlaaaaannnnd!

British values eh - got to love them!

ThIS and i understand why Turnerguy , who voted leave iirc, is uncomfortable with the fact they and the racist agree on this issue.

didn't get to vote as the trains back from Waterloo got stuffed up that evening - although I was going to vote remain 🙂

Close run thing on the decision but I decided that, although I did not like the EU and particularly felt that free movement is mostly about benefiting globalisation and capitalism and not people as a whole, the country was not in a good enough state outside of financial services to leave.

We have a mutli-cultural team at work and I have been the strongest advocate and defender of several of them, particularly where cultural, and religious, differences have compromised their perception within the rest of the department.

In particular the relaxed Greek bloke who has difficulty getting his 8rse out of bed to make it in by 9.30, or the orthodox Polish guy who thinks that natural disasters or diseases are 'punishments' from god...

For decades, the Liberal Left have told us that we're all entitled to 'respect'

Hardly. That idea pervades most aspects of popular culture. It's not a political thing.

The assertion is a response to the opposite problem from the past hundred or so years, where the working classes were told they were no good for anything and they should simply get on with their dull menial lives. People needed to be enocuraged and told that progressing in live is possible.

However it wasn't quite made clear that you deserve the opportunity, not automatically the result. A lot of work is involved and yes, not EVERYONE can be the CEO of a multinational, or a pro cyclist, or whatever. Not only does everyone not have the aptitude, but of course in a company of 100,000 employees there's only one CEO!

particularly felt that free movement is mostly about benefiting globalisation and capitalism and not people as a whole

Hmm, interesting. Do you not think the Polish people benefit from spending a few years making a good wage? Or even longer? More controversially, do we benefit from better tradespeople? Did they push the standards up here? Do people have trouble getting tradespeople in Warsaw?

In particular the relaxed Greek bloke who has difficulty getting his 8rse out of bed to make it in by 9.30

I have that problem and yet, I'm not Greek. How does that fit into their world view I wonder?

Hardly. That idea pervades most aspects of popular culture. It's not a political thing.

So do you 'respect' someone who chooses to claim benefits and sit at home smoking weed all day rather than get a job and better themselves? Weird.

No don't you start bringing the truth into the debate now - repeat after me, "British jobs for British workers", "They steal our jobs and depress our wages", "Kick the buggers out". Twenty times should do it for a first offence.

Sorry THM, like I said, new round here... Struggling to get into the swing of things... And struggling to spot when people are being sarcastic or playing devil's advocate... 😉

So do you 'respect' someone who chooses to claim benefits and sit at home smoking weed all day rather than get a job and better themselves? Weird.

What? No! What the hell are you talking about?

I agreed with your post, I just disputed that the Liberal Left are responsible!

😉 we gave up on treating Brexshit seriously a long time ago. The thread is surreal now and for amusement/venting purposes only.

I just disputed that the Liberal Left are responsible!

They're not the suppliers? Damn, who do you go to?

This is so depressing, this arguing, Stop! There are other things we should be talking about. The stupid decision by the judges will delay Scotlandshires Neverendum (there frit) thus preventing this great Nation Yorkshire from getting out of the Union.

What? No! What the hell are you talking about?
I agreed with your post, I just disputed that the Liberal Left are responsible!

Ah, I do apologise!