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The problem with that is that we would need politicians who act in the country's best interests not their own. They have to be prepared to lose their seat at the next GE.
I'm hoping by the time of the debate the general population will realise that in is a better option. Can you imagine somebody reading the list of promises* out in parliament and asking which ones were deliverable?
*by promises I meant the lies that leading brexit campaigners stood up and shouted very loudly before going on to enjoy good cabinet jobs....
I'm hoping by the time of the debate the general population will realise that in is a better option
Some polls suggest they already have.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/10/daily-chart-6
Satire sites are quick off the mark
Does this mean Macs will be cheap again?
Mrs May. You lost , get over it (!)
Woo-hoo! Mind you we aren't out of the woods yet; cat o nine tails coming into play shortly in a chambers near you.
Finally!!!! A brake has been applied to this madness!!!!!
Will the pound now rally a bit before I go on holiday next week 😀
IF you really want a laugh / horrific reminder of humanities stupidity, have a look at the Daily Mail comments 😆
Nigel is not so confident of a Brexit now.
😆
Yes, the DM comments are classic.
Will be interesting to see how this pans out, could all be a ploy by TM to delay and obfuscate as long as possible so that without causing completely irreparable damage to all of our prospects it becomes clear to everyone except for the completely insane that leaving isn't gong to be very pleasant for those of us with jobs.
Binners....sterling has indeed recovered sharply. Whether it will be a temporary burst of euphoria is another thing.
Does this mean Planet X are hiring?
Mrs May. You lost , get over it (!)
Hahaha!
A brief glimpse of sanity.
I have tried to remain calm and just accept the remoaners will keep moaning about the decision, but I am getting ready to riot. If triggering article 50 gets blocked I'll be rioting and I hope the civil unrest ensues.
I'm glad the Commons will get to debate it, but it's not the solution I was looking for.
If, and it's still a bit if the Commons decide to not ratify the referendum where does that put us? Will the Press change their mind and stop spreading lies, will Westminster stop blaming the EU for everything, with UKIP continue to wither and die? Worse still, will the 51% feel that they’ve been cheated?
I’m seeing a country divided, if STW acts as a barometer for public feeling we can’t discuss anything at the moment without Brexit talk taking over, mostly I think because it does effect everything, but mostly because it’s such an important thing to people.
We need a solution that suits not only the 49, but also the 51 or at least pleases 60%+ of the total. I think us Remainers ‘winning’ on a technicality (of sorts) would be as bad as letting Nigel Farrage handle the Article 50 negotiations alone. Where does it put us? A 2020 Election (or earlier) still being fought on the EU, UKIP flying high again on the promise of Article 50 on day 1, no referendum and the Tories going further and further right to counter it against a mess of a Labour party.
If we cannot appease a decent amount of the 51% and not just a 1% swing with words and policies between now and A50, then I fear we have to start A50 – renegotiate a position in the EU more people can live with, even if it means appeasing unfounded fears.
**** a duck, that's a lot of green! (at time of posting)
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/currency/default.stm ]Market Data[/url]
If triggering article 50 gets blocked I'll be rioting and I hope the civil unrest ensues.
man your barricade comrade while your waiting lets see if leave can agree what leave they would like (the first one was a bit vague) prese that and then see what people think.
flanagaj - Member
I have tried to remain calm and just accept the remoaners will keep moaning about the decision, but I am getting ready to riot. If triggering article 50 gets blocked I'll be rioting and I hope the civil unrest ensues.
In your dreams. Get over yourself.
It's a relief that there will be a chance to expose the flaws in the brexit argument and to outline the expected consequences of brexit. In my opinion the remain campaign was poor so the remain side in Westminster will need to raise their game with more than just "project fear"
I don't believe that the result of the referendum can or should just be thrown aside that runs the risk of further alienating a group of people, many of whom already feel alienated and disenfranchised
If triggering article 50 gets blocked I'll be rioting
What happened to 'you lost, get over it?'
And seriously - what happened to parliamentary sovereignty? Wasn't that what you wanted?
flanagaj - MemberI have tried to remain calm and just accept the remoaners will keep moaning about the decision, but I am getting ready to riot. If triggering article 50 gets blocked I'll be rioting and I hope the civil unrest ensues.
I dare say you won't be alone, whether it amounts to much? Well it doesn't suit the 'professional violent protestors' cause wise and statically leavers tend to be older - no one's 93 Year old Blind Mum is going to be swinging a pick axe handle about.
But in all seriousness if we ignore the referendum there will be large scale protests.
In my opinion the remain campaign was poor so the remain side in Westminster will need to raise their game with more than just "project fear"
Well they could simply ask leave to explain version they want...
A vote with some options multiple choice if you like..
Remain
Leave Norway Style
Leave Switzerland Style
Hard Brexit
The original one promised that was all made up
should split the vote
Well again Mike none of that should have been necessary because it was advisory. May &co seem to have totally misunderstood the concept!
And seriously - what happened to parliamentary sovereignty? Wasn't that what you wanted?
When it suits Mols... when it suits......
And that's why we have a system of Parliamentary Democracy, innit.
I'm not celebrating yet, but it's very good news. Hopefully there will be an outbreak of sanity.
Nobody get your hopes up. I'll gladly eat my hat if this stops Brexit happening. Sorry to piss on your chips like, but we're still ****ed for the forseeable. Having said that...
I am getting ready to riot
Go for it! The country need a bit of a laugh.
I'll gladly eat my hat if this stops Brexit happening
Oh aye, agree with you there. I mean leaving is one thing, but what's far worse tbh is the lack of due process with such a big issue. I was more upset about that than anything else I think. Or at least equally upset.
So, when one half of the country don't like the way things are going, they should just "shut up" and "stop moaning".
If the other half of the country don't like the way things are going, then riots in the streets is an appropriate response.
Divide and Rule eh Mikewsmith. It often works to win a campaign but does it address the underlying issues?
70% of Labour constituencies voted Leave, although most Labour MPs were pro Remain.
Labour MPs will have to decide whether to vote for what is factually and evidentially in the best interests of the country, or vote for what the racists and thickos in their constituencies want.
Are you for real!What happened to 'you lost, get over it?'
From a democratic process remain lost. And now you wonder why I am rather angry.
The Labour core vote is racists and thickos. Ignoring them will mean the end of Labour. Not that it matters, they're done anyway.
It often works to win a campaign but does it address the underlying issues?
The underlying issues are at the feet of the UK Government, they already have the power to fix them. It's just easier to blame Immigrants/EU/somebody else than accept that on both sides of politics they have left people behind.
Labour MPs will have to decide whether to vote for what is factually and evidentially in the best interests of the country,
Good luck to either party trying to whip this one! Its going to be anarchy!
From a democratic process remain lost. And now you wonder why I am rather angry.
Don't blame us that you didn't read the instructions.
Are MPs principled individuals in the job to help better the lot of their constituents, or are they chancers focused on getting elected to further their own careers.
flanagaj - Member
What happened to 'you lost, get over it?'
Are you for real!
From a democratic process remain lost. And now you wonder why I am rather angry
No, just the opposite.
It was an advisory referendum, nothing more, with about 17 million different definitions of what "Brexit" would actually mean in practice.
Nothing on that bit of paper actually said what this would entail. It was all a matter of personal preference, bias, and individual definition.
Did you vote for "full exit"? What is that exactly?... the guy next door to me just wanted control on immigration.
Bill down the road wanted controls on immigration, but still access to the single market.
Jimmy wanted single market access and still have redress to the ECHR, and wasn't bothered about immigration.
You see? 17 million individual definitions of what it may have meant, somehow all defined by one line on an advisory ref, and the lies of politicians? (See how Farage reneged on everything on the morning of the result.)
We then had the sorry spectacle of a cabinet of MPs going in secret to tell us what we all meant by that single line of text. This was the single most undemocratic thing I've ever seen in this country in my lifetime.
So....this is where the democratic bit of this actually starts- where you camp out at your MPs surgery and tell them what you want them to do on your behalf. It was never going to be as easy as just ticking a box on an ill-defined advisory ref- politics is hard work, engaging with the political class is necessary but difficult.
So no, now is where you really need to start "Taking Back Control".....in the way you should have done in the first place- from your bloody MP- by getting in front of them, talking to them, cajoling them, making them listen, convincing them why your idea is best.
Thats your Sovereign Right and Duty.
No Jammers yet?
Maybe he's actually physically combusted?!
And now is time to ask your MP some tough questions.
Why is the EU stopping the UK building schools and hospitals?
Why is the EU doing with the £350 Million, how is it spent, what do we get for it?
What does being in the UK mean for your job?
How will leaving make things better?
Would it be an anonymous vote for the MPs?
Yay! for this decision.
The Labour core vote is racists and thickos. Ignoring them will mean the end of Labour. Not that it matters, they're done anyway.
Absolute twaddle. Racism/thickness straddles many backgrounds.
cloudnine - Member
Would it be an anonymous vote for the MPs?
MP's votes involve walking through a side so it's all in the open. After that the pinnacle of the UK's elected democracy the Lords will have a crack, oh the ironing, so much ironing to do
[quote=flanagaj ]From a democratic process remain lost. And now you wonder why I am rather angry.
No, we wonder why you think rioting is part of the democratic process. Showing your true colours maybe?
I note that nobody on the remain side has proposed rioting as a solution to all the lies told by the leave side, we're slightly more civilised than that.
Government is going to appeal to Supreme Court.
If it is upheld they can try the European Court ( lol) .
IDS is fuming! More lol.
UKIP are asking for judges to be sacked!!
democratic process
This is the thing. The referendum wasn't democracy - it was an abuse of the term. Through misinformation, bare-faced lies, and the whipping up of people's basest and most unpleasant instincts, a bunch of privileged public schoolboys, for which all this is just a game, were able to convince a slim majority that they could get rid of foreigners, and have an extra £350million every week for the NHS, if we were out of the EU.
It was lies.
If you had a referendum on whether to bring back hanging, it would probably be "yes".
If you had a referendum on whether we should send the darkies back 'ome, it would probably be "yes".
It doesn't mean we should actually ****ing do it.
[i]I have tried to remain calm and just accept the remoaners will keep moaning about the decision, but I am getting ready to riot. If triggering article 50 gets blocked I'll be rioting and I hope the civil unrest ensues.[/i]
Calm down princess, it was a British court not a European court decision. That's what you want no? We got our control back...
Come again.Don't blame us that you didn't read the instructions.
This is the thing. The referendum wasn't democracy - it was an abuse of the term.
How was it we got into the EU in the first place? 😆
Parliament took us in… there have been two referendum on staying in.
The referendum was advisory to then allow the government to decide how to proceed. It was part of how it was written so to claim it's a blah blah blah [insert daily wail headline] whatever is a bit futile. When you can get all 17 million to agree what kind of breakfast/brexit you want get back to us. Until then I suggest avoiding the News Quiz on Friday night, it's going to be a good one
It would be interesting to know if the Scottish Independence Referendum had the same clause hidden in it, making its result completely meaningless as well....
Also, if the EU referendum vote was indeed pointless, how do people feel about all the public funds being spent on the remain campaign?
but I am getting ready to riot. If triggering article 50 gets blocked I'll be rioting and I hope the civil unrest ensues.
British pride at its best.
In all seriousness I doubt many brexiters will riot unless they can do so near a Greggs.
does this mean the NHS won't be getting the extra £350million/week we were promised?
😆
ahwiles - Memberdoes this mean the NHS won't be getting the extra £350million/week we were promised?
RIOT!!
British pride at its best.
Sounds French to me.
MP's votes involve walking through a side so it's all in the open. After that the pinnacle of the UK's elected democracy the Lords will have a crack, oh the ironing, so much ironing to do
For all its failings having an un-elected upper house does free them from party control and means they can slow a process and allow for some moderation of populist policies. A somewhat objective (how objective is debatable) second approver should not in theory hurt the policy if it is sound
UKIP are asking for judges to be sacked!!
and ironically are these not the same judges that they have spent years telling us should be making all the important decisions?[img]
[/img]For all its failings having an un-elected upper house does free them from party control and means they can slow a process and allow for some moderation of populist policies
the point being (like above) a key part of TAKE BACK CONTROL was not having unelected people making decisions.
A reminder re the 'democratic deficit':
All thats happened here (quite correctly) is whether Article 50 can be initiated by Royal prerogative or not.
It's not: Brexit can't happen, or "thwarting the will of the people”- it simply says that Royal prerogative does NOT supercede Parliament in this case, and explains why –
It's the High Court, part of our government, doing exactly what they were created to do: rendering a judgement in a case of disagreement.
[i]The whole world will be laughing at us we will be speaking German next[/i]
Dail Mail comments are amazing on that story...
According to a survey of all 650 MPs carried out by the Press Association ahead of the referendum on June 23:480 MPs said they would be voting Remain, including 184 Conservatives
159 MPs said they would be voting Leave, including 139 Conservatives
11 MPs were undeclared, including four Conservative.This gives Remain a notional Commons majority of at least 310.
[quote=crazy-legs ]Satire sites are quick off the mark
> http://newsthump.com/2016/10/18/man-who-demanded-sovereignty-of-parliament-outraged-by-sovereignty-of-parliament/
br />
They're barely having to try - cushiest job ever writing satirical stuff about Brexit
The referendum wasn't democracy - it was an abuse of the term. Through misinformation, bare-faced lies, and the whipping up of people's basest and most unpleasant instincts, a bunch of privileged public schoolboys, for which all this is just a game, were able to convince a slim majority that they could get rid of foreigners, and have an extra £350million every week for the NHS, if we were out of the EU.
You've nailed. I doubt most people went beyond this somethingion.
Although I don't blame the people it was just downright messy.
Brexit just hit it's iceburg
The Bank of England revising its forecasts... Better next year. Worse in 2018.
STOP MAKING THINGS UP. YOU HAVEN'T GOT A CLUE.
@mikewsmith "The underlying issues are at the feet of the UK Government, they already have the power to fix them. It's just easier to blame Immigrants/EU/somebody else than accept that on both sides of politics they have left people behind. "
Agreed
Cleggie is making use of the opportunity to take the piss:
https://twitter.com/nick_clegg/status/794127611358310400
a coherent #Brexit plan that works for all
😆
It would be interesting to know if the Scottish Independence Referendum had the same clause hidden in it
What hidden clause? It was an Advisory Referendum.
[i]Are MPs principled individuals in the job to help better the lot of their constituents, or are they chancers focused on getting elected to further their own careers. [/I]
I think you pretty much know the answer already, the only ones who'll do the right thing are those:
- due to retire
- huge majorities
- private income
- Dennis Skinner and equivalent members of the various Tory/Labour awkward squads
I'm 95% sure that all the SNP MP's will vote Remain.
[quote=b r ]I think you pretty much know the answer already, the only ones who'll do the right thing are those:
- huge majorities
or just in a constituency where they'll vote for a [s]MP who votes remain[/s] monkey with a red rosette? Which I presume applies to a lot of the constituencies where the MP's position conflicts with that of their constituents.
It does still strike me though with folks like flanagaj mindlessly relying on 51% having voted to leave as a mandate to ignore the wishes of the 49%, that all reports suggest another referendum held tomorrow would probably have a different result. Is our current course really the will of the people?
lucky7500 - Member
It would be interesting to know if the Scottish Independence Referendum had the same clause hidden in it, making its result completely meaningless as well....
It wasn't "hidden"- you just weren't paying attention.
They are voting on a different thing now though. They will be voting on whether to uphold the referendum result. There will be an awful lot of shouting from the leavers that they have been betrayed if their MP doesn't follow the referendum result.According to a survey of all 650 MPs carried out by the Press Association ahead of the referendum on June 23:480 MPs said they would be voting Remain, including 184 Conservatives
159 MPs said they would be voting Leave, including 139 Conservatives
11 MPs were undeclared, including four Conservative.This gives Remain a notional Commons majority of at least 310.
Here's why nothing will change: [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-legal-challenge-article-50-high-court-ruling-jeremy-corbyn-a7395101.html ]Labour will vote for Brexit in parliament.[/url] Corbyn doesn't like the EU and wants us out.
Brexiteers, you can put your pitchforks down, all this will ultimately do is further legitimise Brexit - now it's not just going to be mandated by the referendum but also by a parliamentary vote which will go in your favour.
Or you can get out there and riot your manboobs off, whatever, like I said we need a laugh.
Looks like Labours official position will be to support Brexit.
“This ruling underlines the need for the Government to bring its negotiating terms to parliament without delay. Labour respects the decision of the British people to leave the European Union. But there must be transparency and accountability to parliament on the terms of Brexit.“Labour will be pressing the case for a Brexit that works for Britain, putting jobs, living standards and the economy first.”
Unfortunately, I think this sounds like simply a continuation of their current position which is to say that anything offered is not good enough. I would prefer them to keep saying exactly what their compromises might be in order to secure their wish list. It all sounds far too similar to May's 'Best deal possible' bollocks.
You seem to be assuming that Corbyn has control of Labour MPs. We all know that he's an enthusiastic Brexiteer.
[quote=AlexSimon ]There will be an awful lot of shouting from the leavers that they have been betrayed if their MP doesn't follow the referendum result.
Or rioting? Though see my point up there, that Brexit doesn't actually have majority support of the population.
I'm assuming he has enough sway, combined with MPs sense of self preservation, for Brexit not to be overturned by parliament. I hope I'm wrong! But I don't believe I am.