Raybanwomble-
I'm sure most of the astronauts who flew to the mood believed in God and they managed to avoid hitting any buildings on their way there.
And some of them believed in God even more once they'd come back.
The Enlightenment gave us eugenics (as well as some good s**t)
The re establishment of mayorships in the UK is an example of localism. The EU project (I know you all hate that phrase) runs counter to the idea of localism.
Gonna call bobbins on that
EU regional development fund & investment bank and cultural projects & has filled in many times when the national government isn't interested
7 stanes was part funded by the eu
I'm also confused how the EU is somehow anti mayor !?!
So you claim 15- 20 major languages in Africa which is quite big. The EU has 24 offical languages and well over 100 spoken languages. French, German and English (through I suspect that'll have to be renamed Amirish) are the procedural languages (so stop maonaing about me using them till next Decemeber). Spain has large numbers speaking Basque and Catalan; Switzerland 4 offical languages; Belgium 3 of which one spills over from the Low Countries which in turn is close enough to German for me to understand a lot of what's said (like Danish).
And then there's Amirish, which a lot of people speak quite well, in the same way as a lot of Africans speak French, because it's handy when you have 24 languages to have one that a lot of people speak, especially as a lot of other people around the world speak it too. Normally it all works fine though I've found people unwilling to speak Spanish in parts of Spain and refusing point blank to speak French is one village in Belgium.
Kimbers-
Don't be silly, I'm not for a minute saying the EU is anti mayor.
As to your point about EU development fund I'm not denying what you say and further to that we know many of the areas who received the most funding voted overwhelmingly for brexit.
So they're either stupid or they took other factors into consideration. Wage supression? housing? Maybe they didn't see that money going into their pocket? As well as other more nasty reasons I'll concede.
Look at the map mate, straight lines versus crinkly ones. Simples.
Africa and ME have had their borders imposed upon them. Simples.
Ignoring ethnic, tribal and cultural differences. Simples.
Africa very much sees EU as a colonial force. Simples.
Rwanda, genocide orchestrated by EU member states. Simples.
S**t kicking off in CA Republic. Simples.
Friend just sent a link to story titled 'The silent war, how Britain and Europe support slavery and sex abuse in Libiya.'
Won't post it here because you'd probably have to check the Intel on that one first wouldn't you?
And before you say whats this got to do with your humanist EU project remember this bit of the thread is about how 'rational European States imposed artificial borders in another continent. Blame colonialism not rationalism if you like, or reflect that maybe it's rationalism for us and colonialism for them still. What's good for the goose is definitely not good for the gander in this instance.
You could also look at how your beloved France controls the finances / banking in West and Central Africa as well. Literally controlling the purse strings.
Keep rational buddy,.
I’m sure most of the astronauts who flew to the mood believed in God and they managed to avoid hitting any buildings on their way there.
And some of them believed in God even more once they’d come back.
The Enlightenment gave us eugenics (as well as some good s**t)
It was the scientists who got us to the moon, the astronauts were jumped up pilots.
And on eugenics.....not so much to do with rationalism and much more to do with prejudice with some religious excuse making thrown in....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4001825/
Oops
The big difference is that science also recognises when it’s wrong. Religion and prejudice quite often doesn’t.
Raybanwomble-
Picking up on your earlier point. If you think reason alone can solve any problem then I think in that case you can call it an ideology.
The world moves to the beat of many drums, not reason alone. If you think that then I'd say you are a member of the Cult of Reason.
The world moves to the beat of many drums, not reason alone
I’m well aware of that.
But just because humans are prone to irrationality doesn’t mean that we should be advocating for a return to our most base instincts.
The world needs more rationality in Putins/Vladislav Surkovs/Trumps post-truth, postmodern, stranger things world.
I’m sure most of the astronauts who flew to the mood believed in God and they managed to avoid hitting any buildings on their way there.
Neil Armstrong - parents were devout but Neil himself didn't have any particular religious beliefs.
Buzz Aldrin - Presbyterian.
Michael Collins - "nominally" Episcopalian so Religious In Name Only I guess.
So that's about 50:50 so far. Are you "sure" enough for me to google the others and check?
And some of them believed in God even more once they’d come back.
Which ones?
It was the scientists who got us to the moon
You've no idea how many of them were religious. You talk big but you have no idea what you're on about and you look a tit.
And you're way off topic so please take it somewhere else.
You’ve no idea how many of them were religious. You talk big but you have no idea what you’re on about and you look a tit.
Doesn’t matter if they were personally, what matters is that it was the scientific method that got us there, not a religious structure of belief.
"mate", "buddy". I'm neither when they're used as condescending insults.
Look at the map mate, straight lines versus crinkly ones. Simples.
There are lots of "crinkly" lines in wet populated Africa and straight line where there's nothing and nobody, Just desert. Frontiers often follow rivers or watersheds which are crinkly but in desserts there are next to no natural or man-made features to follow. If it's simple it's not the same simple explanation as your complicated one, Inkster
You could also look at how your beloved France controls the finances / banking in West and Central Africa as well. Literally controlling the purse strings.
Tiens, c'est l'hôpital qui se moque de la Charité.
For some people localism is important.
Are we no longer using voter turn out to determine what is of importance to people?
I’d point out more of your inconsistencies, but I strongly suspect they are deliberate.
what matters is that it was the scientific method that got us there, not a religious structure of belief.
No, it doesn't matter - you're the one who's pitching religion against science and engineering. They aren't exclusive. Therefore, you can stop banging on about it now on the EU thread.
No, that was Inkster when he started banging on about “scientism” and blaming rationalism for human stupidity.
You’ve no idea how many of them were religious.
That's not what he was saying though. He's right that religion didn't get us to the moon. They didn't make the Saturn V lift off by the power of hopes and prayers, I didn't hear mission control going "T-minus 30 seconds, Kumbaya is a go." After Kennedy's speech, step 1 wasn't "assemble an army of priests, they'll get us to low Earth orbit at least."
Of course some, all or none of them may have been religious. This might well have given some the courage to climb on board a glorified ICBM but it was immaterial in getting us there.
I’m more than happy for my surgeon to be motivated by their faith, but I want any work they perform on me to be based on science.
He’s right that religion didn’t get us to the moon.
Of course not, but neither did art or strawberries. They're different and fairly unrelated concepts.
Anyway. IMO the ultimate cause of Brexit is probably the post-restoration settlement. The British constitution, with both monarch and parliament sharing power created a stable country for hundreds of years, which resulted in military power, defeating enemies and ultimately an empire, which is where the inflated British ego and exceptionalism comes from.
Other nations in Europe are attached to their language and culture, but their actual nation states less so because they have come and gone over the last few hundred years. They appreciate that actual statehood is a fluid thing even when cultural identity is still strong.
Inkster attempts to point out that they speak Spanish in Spain and French in France. But they speak German in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Luxembourg, and related langauges in the Netherlands, Frisia, the UK, they speak Swedish in Sweden but a similar dialect in Norway and Denmark, they speak Italian in Switzerland as well as Italy, which is similar to Spanish - etc etc etc.
The point is we are all cousins, we all share history. This is why I think national borders are bollocks. So to me, the European project makes a lot of sense.
Last post from me on this thread.
It seems to have taken on a direction all of it's own and I feel largely responsible for that.
I love the philosophical debate but this is a thread about brexit after all and with only a few days to go feelings are pretty strong and I completely understand that. There's probably people dropping in wanting to talk about brexit having seen it at the top of the page pretty much constantly over the last couple of days who and are thinking wtf? when they touch down!
I think it best I start an new thread some time soon, dunno what it'll be called but probably something polemic like, "The cult of reason" or something on those lines.
Certainly it would be along the lines of Critical Rationalism or counterfactualism. Seeing as we seem to have taken this one to the moon it might be time to lift off.
Nothing would be out of bounds, even brexit. Sometimes it's felt like spinning plates in a Greek restaurant, posting a reply only to see it's already moved on a page whilst ive been typing! It's all good though.
Edukator, we've both been a bit passive aggressive with and condescending to each other though we've obviously enjoyed the experience, coming back at each other like two drunks in a bar! It would be nicer to have a thread where we could go gloves off with each other, maybe go in even harder without any bad feeling (not that I think there is really, otherwise we'd have opted out a couple of pages back. Same goes to you rayban, kimbers, cougar, slowoldman and the rest of you.
I miss some of the old philosophical debates as politics has come front and centre over the last 3 years and I'm sure I'm not alone.
Adios, au revoir, ciao, aufuiderzein and toodle pip......for now!
I'll still be popping in here for a peep though!
The EU project (I know you all hate that phrase) runs counter to the idea of localism.
No it doesn't. Quite the opposite, the EU has in place any number of measures to protect and enhance local cultures. Cornish Pasties are protected by EU law. You can't make a pasty in Belgium and call it a Cornish Pasty:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/protected-food-name-cornish-pasty-pgi
Protected Geographical Indication - loads of countries have them for products specific to one region. EU is protecting the rights / traditions of local people to make and market their products without being undercut by inferior products from elsewhere passed off under the same name. Yorkshire Wensleydale and Welsh Caerphily cheeses both have the same protection. Localism in action.
The EU (contrary to popular belief) allows individual countries to set their own laws, its not trying to create some super-state where everyone is living under the same conditions.
Of course not, but neither did art or strawberries. They’re different and fairly unrelated concepts.
Exactly my point, yes.
I think it best I start an new thread some time soon
I think that's a very good idea.
Cornish Pasties are protected by EU law. You can’t make a pasty in Belgium and call it a Cornish Pasty:
Er not until after Friday, once we’re rule takers all they have to do is take it off the protected list.
I’m not expecting this but just saying 🙂
Molgrips:
they speak Swedish in Sweden but a similar dialect in Norway and Denmark,
Easy now tiger, that's fighting talk! Norweigian is close, but Danish is like talking with marbles in your mouth.
I'm not super-clear on the origins of the language up here and how it spread, but the similarities are strong (I can understand Norwegien and Danish kind-of) and there is also usage in the Finland/Swedish border areas in Finland. It's almost expected though, given the reach that Sweden had in the Baltic region in the 1500s and onwards.
Yes and this is my point. We're all cousins or even siblings, including the incredible British.
The history of the rulers of the countries of these isles (rather than the people living in it) is written in Latin & French as much as any of the other many languages that have been used here.
Anyway, can we make this a positive thread for the rest of the week?
Possible upsides to Brexit only.
I’ll start…
If we refuse to allow other countries access to our fishing waters, and as a result put large barriers between our fishing industry and the market for their catch…
Perhaps it will be good for fishing stocks, and also perhaps there will a patriotic uprising and many more people within the UK will pay for and eat the quality produce caught of our shores, resulting in a greater appreciation for the natural world all around our isles.
You’re not trying Binners. Come on, post about a possible upside… give it a try…
At least Bozo and his clowns own this farce now
the sh!tshow is on them
(I know theyll obvs blame civil servants, barnier, labour, EU etc etc)
Plenty of upsides from where I'm sitting:
Easy now tiger, that’s fighting talk! Norweigian is close, but Danish is like talking with marbles in your mouth.
The other half always said the Danes spoke with a throat full of porridge
kelvin
Anyway, can we make this a positive thread for the rest of the week?Possible upsides to Brexit only.
Greatly increased prosperity for the select few.
Blue passports.
Cheap £ so people from 3rd world countries can afford to come here on holiday and wonder why we did this to ourselves.
Re-unification of Ireland, independence for Wales and Scotland, shortly followed by Yorkshire, Cornwall and the City of London.
About the only downside will be the necessity for [s]concentration camps[/s] immigrant retention centres for the Unionist British Nationalists from those countries who sadly discover that England only regards them as British if they stay where they belong, and not in England.
Deckchairs finally neatly arranged...
🙂
And the Immigration report is comedy gold too.
Fishing rights, not linking it but the DM reckons they are on the table too.
Brexit is going so well 😂😂
1. EU migrants return to the EU
2. Subsequent lack of health care professionals cause a massive dieback in boomer generation.
3. 1&2 result in housing surplus and subsequent property crash
4. Millennials stop whinging about being unable to get on the property ladder.
What could possibly go wrong?
perhaps there will a patriotic uprising and many more people within the UK will pay for and eat the quality produce caught of our shores
Except, we don't eat much of the type of fish that's native to our waters. Unless you're expecting everyone to patriotically start popping round to the chippie for herring and chips.
To be fair, the implosion of the NHS and resulting death rate also solves the pensions crisis as well.
I'm not saying it's in the government's interests to let a few infected people in from China, but it makes you think
Except, we don’t eat much of the type of fish that’s native to our waters.
I know. A change away from imported white fish to a wide variety of fish and seafood caught off the shores of Britain could be a positive outcome of Brexit, couldn’t it? When you see the amazing stuff we currently export to other countries, perhaps more people will get to know and consume it here, while we also leave more in the sea due to curtailed export opportunities. Okay, not good for a great many of our current fishermen, but it might improve our national attitude to the fish around the UK.
Anyway, instead of shooting down my attempt at a positive, come up with your own… let’s all look for positives on the run up to Friday.
Well - having fewer restrictions on state intervention could be a benefit, couldn't it? If there were the political will from government of course.
There are no benefits of brexit
I have been asking for positives since the referendum and still haven’t heard one.
Positives for Friday:
All the Brexit/UKIP MEP's out of a job.
The EU can get on with business without the deadweight of the British (Englixh actually) dragging it down.
A strengthening of the EU's unity as other nation states watch the UK shitshow.
er...
A change away from imported white fish to a wide variety of fish and seafood caught off the shores of Britain could be a positive outcome of Brexit, couldn’t it?
It could, yes, if people were prepared to do it. And I don't know for sure, but I'd rather think that if there was an 'appetite' for doing so we'd be doing it already.
Anyway, instead of shooting down my attempt at a positive, come up with your own… let’s all look for positives on the run up to Friday.
Struggling to think of many. We've been asking this question of leavers since 2016 and we've not had anything back that isn't based in fantasy.
I suppose when the exchange rate goes through the floor it'll be good for the tourism industry. Assuming people feel they're still welcome to visit here, anyway. Could bring in a bit of foreign money I guess.
kelvin
...Anyway, instead of shooting down my attempt at a positive, come up with your own… let’s all look for positives on the run up to Friday
To be fair, it's pretty hard.
It need not have been, but the UK govt has acted like a teenager having a tantrum who runs away from home yelling abuse at the household, slams the door, chucks away the door key, and with no money in his/her pocket hopes that paedo Uncle Donnie will give him/her shelter.
I expected a reasoned and logical approach to the separation, and wasn't expecting this shit-show of macho posturing by the UK govt. To be fair to Corbyn, I reckon he would have handled it much better.
I saw something on Twitter about a "return to a time" when films and TV programmes were being made without having to adhere to crazy EU PC rules regarding people of other colour/race/sexual preference. That could be a plus if you like that sort of thing . . . . which it would seem lots of Brits do.
Re local fish, doesn't Scotland have loads of Salmon? We'll all be eating Salmon three times a day. Huzzah!
Wait for the economy to tank. Invest in a SIPPs while things are at an all time low. Either things will be okay in 20 years time when I retire and I'll have a nice little nest egg, or not having a decent pension will be the least of my worries.
Except, we don’t eat much of the type of fish that’s native to our waters.
That's pollocks.
