Edukator-
So brexit has strengthened the union yes?
I'll have a think on that one, probably have a peep at the video link you sent first,
University fees, what university fees? Junior gets a grant and his fees paid in France. He got a French Bac and German Abitur thanks to cooporation between France and Germany. He had an Erasmus year at the Humbolt in Berlin... .
Brtian's exclusive in the bad sense education system can't be blamed on Europe and Brexit certainly won't improve matters. In fact according to the university types on this forum Brexit is resulting in funding cuts for research, falling student numbers and a loss of status.
long before I drunk the Murdoch cool aid.
Did you?
My response to that is that given that it was all about feelings, why didn’t the remain side wake up to this and campaign on a more persuasive message.
Because it was a myopic campaign. Credit where it's due, the leave campaign was and continues to be a masterclass in gross manipulation.
are members seriously suggesting I should be banned?
Not to my knowledge.
the expansion in university intake
Figures please.
So inkster what would you suggest? Should we simply "roll with it"?
I for one have liquidated and shifted certain assets to ensure the well being of my family and business interests, is this wrong should i blindly fall in line and commit to the cause?
What is expected of us working class entrepreneurs? I think some Brexiteer cheerleaders need to step up and start delivering the economic miracle they have sold to poor people? What do you think? Will you be sacrificing your familys future for the greater good? At the end of the day people like me are being asked to underwrite the cheques that Boris and associated **** wits are writing? I will not be doing so and by the way the one thing I understand is that all this shite will catch up with them.
Are the bulk of Brexiteers thick? No but they are manipulated and easily led due to media and a lack of education.
Edukator
Member
In fact according to the university types on this forum Brexit is resulting in funding cuts for research, falling student numbers and a loss of status.
It looks like this year is going to be pretty flat- so an end to the rise, rather than a definite fall. Still bad news. (the incredibly important chinese and indian markets are growing, China at a huge rate, so just standing still represents a significant loss of market interest) and our people in country hear brexit all the time as a reason. Not just brexit itself, but what it says about the country and about who's in charge. The surge in hate crime among that. And not brexit alone- when Theresa May became PM a lot of people took notice, after years of dealing with her as a nightmare home secretary. Boris doesn't have the same toxicity in this area at least.
Edukator -
In good faith I said I'd take a look at the video you posted.
It's in French. You didn't mention that. Thats not good faith on your part, my French doesnt extend much past tasse de the, bonjour and au revoir.
I'll get to the university intake and fees question later, glad juniors getting it all for free over there in France, can't say the same here in the UK though sadly.
Kimbers - molgrips -
You're equating local elections with European elections? I knew someone would come up with this false equivalence sooner or later. Local elections are for local people. Everyone knows what local elections represent, they relate to local and specific issues. For me and I think many others the EU elections are remote and somewhat abstract. maybe not for you but you might be smarter than me.
Participation in EU elections by UK citizens has never reached much over 40% and has been as low as 24%, nearly half the European average and miniscule in relation to countries like Belgium where figures over 90% are common. Does this tell you anything?
But as you say kimbers if EU citizens aren't engaged then it's their fault. Thats rather like Labour's analysis of their defeat, where they ask themselves what went wrong and conclude that it was the electorate that went wrong.
Cougar -
Through the Blair years university intake increased exponentially, whilst intake from working class applicants decreased dramatically, I'll expand on the cultural effect that has had later.
Kelvin -
It's not science versus magic, it's scientism versus reality, remains' failure to put forward a decent or seductive argument and rely on sets of figures was never going to work was it. When has the public ever trusted figures put forward by politicians? Why put the scientists up to sell a position? If you've got something to sell that put a salesman up front to try and sell it.
All the kings horses and all the kings men, couldn't put humpty together again...Should have let the men have a go first, the horses were never going to be able to do it.
Oldmanmtb11 -
Few assets and no kids here, less choices than you unfortunately.
It's the media's fault, it's always the medias fault isn't it.
All this stuff about should we just roll over, never going to accept it etc is beyond irrelevant.
it’s scientism versus reality
Postmodernist bullshit
It’s in French. You didn’t mention that. Thats not good faith on your part, my French doesnt extend much past tasse de the, bonjour and au revoir.
It was a test of your interest, ability and attitude. 🙂
You din't click before your fist replied to it, didn't understand it when you did and then felt offended or maybe threatened by it. You don't need to understand it to get the point I'm making - Boris is up against calm, thinking, articulate europhiles such as Plenkovic and will fail to get a deal anything like as good being an EU member. His bluster and bullshit convinced the British public to vote for him but won't convince the 27 to give him what he wants.
It’s in French. You didn’t mention that. Thats not good faith on your part, my French doesn't extend much past tasse de thé, bonjour and au revoir.
Couldn't you see the title? There was a bit of a clue there. French used to be the language of diplomacy as English was regarded as passé and a tad blunt for delicate negotiations.
The fact that neither of us could understand what was in the video is our fault for failing to engage properly with the neighbours, they have been patient so far, they no longer need to bother after Friday.
Inkster Im not sure how you can claim false equivelence
how many people can name their local councilors?
But as you say kimbers if EU citizens aren’t engaged then it’s their fault. Thats rather like Labour’s analysis of their defeat, where they ask themselves what went wrong and conclude that it was the electorate that went wrong.
where on earth did I say this?!
I said it was our own politicians overinflating their value helped convince (half the) people that EU didnt matter, so convinced of their own right to rule they darent acknowledge that international integration & cooperation are part of government & economics.
And yes, Ill blame the press too they also share part of the blame, theyve spent the best part of the last 40 years stoking xenophobia, which fed perfectly into the Brexit debate
Of course there was a failure of remain to communicate & relate , we had 2 of the smarmiest Tories ever (Cameron & Osborne) telling everyone that they knew best
(The press) also share their part in the blame...)
Is ‘blame’ the correct word when they got the result that they convinced the electorate to desire? Propaganda is a very useful political tool. One might say the most useful.
There’s a handy compilation of erroneous anti-EU claims just been published, so at least the newspaper-reading portion of the electorate might now re-inform themselves after the fact (-less).
An old phrase comes to mind:
‘Lies travel halfway around the world before the truth can get it’s boots on’
Who really cares after the fact? People love to pick a side and then subsequently don’t care about facts which don’t support their chosen grievance/narrative . The UK press know this effect very well. Of course, the list doesn’t include the steady drip-drip (to become the torrent) of ‘immigrant/foreigner/Muslim/swarthy scrounger gets all of your stuff and then pisses in your soup before raping your grandmother’ stories that have dominated the press in the last few decades.
Anyway, that list. Rebutted here
Abattoirs – EC hygiene rules force closure of abattoirs, Nov 1992
Abattoirs – Local meat products under threat from new EC Health Directives, Jan 1993
Acres – Acres are outlawed by Brussels, Jul 2008
Acrobats, Africa – EU funding for African acrobats and trapeze artists, July 2015
Aga – New EU sulphur rules will cause problems with oil-fired Aga’s, Dec 2009
A-levels – EU to phase out A-levels for EU style diplomas, Jan 2000
Acorns – EU to prevent the sale of English oak seeds, Nov 1994
Advertising, sex discrimination – EU to ban advertising for same-sex flats, Sep 2004
Advertising, sweets and toys – Swedish Presidency will force a ban on sweet and toy ads, Feb 1999
Africa, Circus artists – EU funding for African acrobats and trapeze artists, July 2015
Agriculture, set-aside – Farmers to be encouraged to mow land early resulting in “massacre” of game, May 1993
Agriculture, subsidies and fraud – CAP spending and fraud out of control, Aug 1993
Agriculture, three-crop rule – EU tells British farmers what they can grow, Nov 2014
Aircraft, low flying jets – MOD to be forced to pay compensation for military jet noise pollution, Dec 1995
Alcohol sales – EU ‘bans boozing’, Feb 2005
Ale, name – Light ale to be forced to change its name, May 2005
Allergen rules – UK diners will face £200m for EU allergen rules, Nov 2014
Ambulances – False alarm over 999 calls, Dec 2006
Ambulances – Ambulances turn yellow for Europe, Mar 2002
Ambulances, St Johns – EU to force St Johns Ambulances to replace its entire fleet, Apr 2002
America – Let’s quit the EU and link up with America, Oct 1998
Animals, use of human medicines – Human medicines to be forbidden for use on animals, Feb/Mar 1995
Anthem, European – Europeans to find themselves singing about “the motherland”, Feb 2004
Anti-drugs, Peru – Taxpayers money used to rehabilitate Peruvian drug addicts, Jul 2014
Apples, Apple orchards – British apple orchards to lose out to over productive continental farms, Mar 1995
Apples, Danish – EC regulations forbid the marketing of Ingrid Marie apple, Nov 1992
Apples, standards – Quality standards ban curved cucumbers and certain apples, Jun 1993
Aristocrats, and wine labels – EC to register aristocrats to check for improper labelling of wine, Oct 1993
Army vehicles – Army to be forced to upgrade trailers in line with EU Directive, Jun 2005
Asylum laws – Misunderstanding between EU and UN asylum laws, Feb 2000
Aviation – ‘Open Skies’ treaty threatens fight agains global warming, Feb 2006
B
Baby rattles – EC to ban noisy toys, Jan 1996
Bagpipes – EU safety directives to ban playgrounds, trapeze artists and bagpipes, Aug 2005
Bagpipes, noise levels – Bagpipes to be quietened by an edict from Brussels, Apr 2008
Bailout – EU demanding £6bn from Britain for a new bailout, Sep 2013
Bailout, emergency funding – UK called upon to provide more emergency funding, Jun 2016
Balloons – EU bans children from blowing up balloons, Oct 2011
Bananas – Curved or small bananas to be banned by Brussels, Sep 1994
Bananas – Curved bananas, Mar 1998
Bananas, funding – £3billion for bananas, Feb 2013
Bank accounts, ID requirements when opening – Children to be prevented from opening bank accounts due to ID laws, Apr 1995
Barmaids – EU health directive to prevent barmaids from showing cleavage, Nov 2005
Barometers – Preassure rises on Britain’s barometer makers, Mar 2006
Barrister’s wigs – Traditional barrister’s wig to be scrapped, Apr 2002
Beaches, Bathing water – EU to ban our beaches, April 2014
Bed & Breakfasts, dogs in – Rules on whether dogs may be allowed in B&B kitchens or not, Mar 2006
Beer, ale – Light ale gets a name change, May 2005
Bells, church – EU law bans church bells, Oct 2002
Benefits, free movement, residency, NHS – EU rights to reside in another member state, EU benefit claimants and NHS treatment entitlement, Feb 2013
Benefit tourism, migration – 600,000 unemployed EU migrants in the UK, October 2013
Bin collection fees – EU to introduce tax on recycling, Feb 2016
Binge drinking – EU wants binge tax on our beer, Feb 2006
Bingo, phrases used – EU wants to ban bingo callers from using phrases like “two fat ladies”, Dec 2009
Black boxes – EU wants one in every car, Nov 2009
Birth certificates – EU to force the UK to change or abolish national birth certificates, Aug 2013
Buy one, get one free – 2-for-1 bargains to be banned, Sep 1999
Bombay mix – Bombay mix to be renamed Mumbai mix, Jul 2006
Bones – Butchers cannot give a dog a bone, May 2004
Books, standardisation of prices – Britain’s book export trade to be damaged by new price standardisations, May 1993
Books, VAT – UK government forced to abolish zero rate VAT on books and newspapers, Mar 1993
Booze – EU ‘bans boozing’, Feb 2005
Bottles and squeeze tubes, food outlets – Condiments must be offered in sachets, Apr 1993
Brainwashing , EU propaganda– EU brainwashing children, Jan 2012
Brandy butter – Traditional brandy butter to be banned, Jun 1998
Bread, size – British loaf of bread under threat from EU, Oct 1997
Breakfast, fry-ups – Traditional trucker’s fry-ups to be banned, Sep 2001
British meat – EU wants to ban Union flag from British meat packs, Sep 2013
Broadband speeds, red tape – EU red tape force down broadband speeds, May 2016
Broadcasting, licence fees – EC planning to ban license fees as “state aids”, Sep 1994
Budget airlines, EU staff – EU officials banned from flying Ryanair, Mar 2012
Budget, EU – £19.4 billion “black hole” in the EU budget, Jun 2016
Buildings, indoor air pollution research – EU trying to quantify smell of British workers, Sep 1996
Bull bars – EU halting British move to ban bull bars, Apr 1995
Bulldogs – EU seeks to outlaw 60 dog breeds, Jul 1995
Bullfighting – British taxpayers subsidising bullfighting, Nov 2014
Bus drivers – Driven crazy by barmy bus driver Brussels ruling, Jan 1999
Buses, double-decker – EU safety rules will dispose of London double-decker, Jan 1995
Buses, double-decker – Double-decker buses to be banned, Apr 1998
Buses, journeys – Passengers to pay a second fare for journeys over 30 miles, Jan 1999
Buses, passengers on ‘closed door tours’ – EC regulations forbid the carrying of British passengers, Nov 1992
Buses, seat belts – Britain powerless to introduce new seat belt laws without backing from the EC, Nov 1993
Business, red tape – UK businesses strangled by EU red tape, Oct 2013
Business, tax – EU tax bombshell that could cost businesses £48bn a year, Oct 2015
Butchers (see also Meat products) – EC closes butchers shops, Nov 1992
C
Cakes – EU bans eating competition cakes, Aug 2008
Cancer treatment – “EU red tape” is denying cancer patients access to new treatments, Jun 2016
Candles – EU wants to control your candles, Dec 2015
Cannons – 21-gun salutes to be muffled, Mar 2006
Car boot sales – Brussels threatens charity shops and car boot sales, Oct 2000
Cars, green – Millions wasted on green cars, Jul 2016
Cars, number plates – British car number plates to be axed by EU, April 2014
Cars, vintage – Vintage cars to be forcibly removed from the road, Jun 1999
Cars, washing – EC to demand petrol interceptors in drains or ban car washing, Nov 1993
Casinos, ID requirements – ID required at casinos, Apr 1995
Census – EU asks women about their sex lives, Nov 2007
Chalet girls – Chalet girls to face extinction from foreign employment directive, Nov 1994
Charity shops – Brussels threatens charity shops and car boot sales, Oct 2000
Charity shops, toys – Charity shops banned from selling second hand toys, Nov 1992
Cheese, British – British cheese face extinction, May 1999
Cheese, Caerphilly – Caerphilly cheese production halted due to EU rules, Apr 1995
Cheese, listeria in – EC rules on levels of listeria threaten British cheeses, Feb 1995
Cheese, mozzarella – EU calling for Italians to produce mozzarella using powdered milk, July 2015
Cheese, serving temperature – EC moves to ban Ploughman’s sandwiches with new cheese temperature regulations, Jun 1993
Cheese, soft cheese – Milk-based product directive to outlaw soft cheeses, Nov 1992
Child labour – EU meddlers ban kids on milk rounds, Aug 1998
Chinese toys – Chinese toy imports are to be banned unless humanlike in form, Jul 1994
Chips, prices – Potato prices set to soar due to bad crop and EU rules, Jan 1995
Chocolate – Chocolote or ‘vegelate’, Apr 1998
Christmas, costumes – Mother Christmas outfits are the result of sex discrimination laws, Oct 2001
Christmas puddings, Royal Navy – EU bans wooden oars for stirring the Christmas Pudding, Nov 1992
Christmas trees – EC to promote standardised Christmas trees, Nov 1992
Church, bells – Village church bells silenced by EU, Oct 2002
Church, VAT – EU to may churches pay full VAT, Sep 2003
Cigars, health warning and pub sales – Sales of cigars to fall due to be sold individually with a health warning, Jan 1994
Cinema, independent film – EU threat to British film industry, Feb 2015
Circus artists, Africa – EU funding for African acrobats and trapeze artists, July 2015
Circuses – Circus performers required to wear hard hats, Jul 2003
Circuses – EU safety directives to ban playgrounds, trapeze artists and bagpipes, Aug 2005
Climbers, height – Mountains must display height warning signs for climbers, Mar 2004
Climbers, safety wedges – Brussels bans climbers’ safety wedges, Feb 1995
Climbers, safety wedges – Brussels to take the fun out of climbing, Jul 1995
Clothing, designer – UK supermarkets banned from issuing sales on designer clothes, Aug 1998
Clothing, kilts – Kilts to be classified as women’s wear, November 2003
Clothing, women’s sizes – Women’s clothes sizes to get bigger due to standardisation, April 2002
Clothing, zips – EU plans to ban zipper trousers, May 1999
Clotted cream – Cornish clotted cream to be made in Brittany, Mar 1998
Coaches, seat belts – Britain powerless to introduce new seat belt laws without backing from the EC, Nov 1993
Coaches, to replace buses – EU safety rules will dispose of London double-decker, Jan 1995
Cockles – Scores of foreign boats to invade Essex coast – Nov 1992
Cockles – Cockle traders to be forced to buy expensive steaming equipment, Feb 1993
Cod – Cod no longer to be called cod thanks to EU, Sep 2001
Coffee – EU wants to ban coffee machines, April 2014
Coffee – EU wants to restrict your coffee drinking, May 2015
Coffins – EC to standardise coffins sizes, Feb 1993
Combine harvesters – “Ludicrous” EU regulation bans using combine harvesters in the wet, Oct 2008
Commission, building – EC to build £900 million tower for staff, Mar 1993
Commission, hot-air balloons – Commission wasting hundreds of thousands on hot-air balloons, Nov 1992
Commission, library – EC library to cost £2,138 for every book borrowed, Feb 2005
Commission, pensions – EU staff retire early with huge pensions, Aug 2005
Commission, staff pay and tax – EC employees are over-paid and do not pay tax, Mar 1993
Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) – CAP spending and fraud out of control, Aug 1993
Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), rapeseed – EU responsible for your hay fever, May 2015
Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) – CAP subsidies to large landowners, Sep 2016
Common Fisheries Policy – Common Fisheries Policy is illegal under British law, Jan 1993
Common Fisheries Policy, seabed – EU plot to seize control of our seabed, Feb 2013
Competition prizes – Plan to cap prizes, Mar 2003
Condiments – Condiments must be offered in sachets, Apr 1993
Condoms – Condom dimensions to be harmonised, Mar 2000
Condoms, for fishermen – Fishing boats obliged to carry condoms, Nov 1992
Condoms, testing of – EU to push for standard condom size, Oct 1994
Congestion charges – UK motorists should pay congestion charge to drive in every town, Feb 2016
Consumer protection, dangerous products – UK to be invaded by poor quality products, Jan 1993
Copyright – EU vote could curb taping of music and TV programmes , Feb 1999
Copyright, tourist photography – EU banning tourist photos of the London Eye, June 2015
Copyright, video recordings – Copyright Tax to be levied on all home VCR recordings, Mar 2000
Corgis – Corgis to be banned by EU, Apr 2002
Cornish pasties – TTIP will allow Cornish pasties to be “made in America”, Sep 2015
Corporal punishment – EU Court may ban smacking, Jun 1998
Corporations, tax – EU plots to tax Britain, May 2015
Corpses – EU plans to liquify corpses and pour them down the drain, July 2010
Cosmetics and personal care products – Row over Latin labels, May 1999
Cotton – EU plans for cotton duty ‘will cost jobs’, Jun 1998
Country of origin – Bags made in the UK from leather made in Italy will no longer be able to use a “Made in Britain” tag, Aug 2013
Country-specific recommendations, economic policy, – EU tells PM to tear up economic policy, June 2014
Court of Auditors report – EU accounts not signed off…again, Nov 2013
Cow gut violin strings – EU bans cow gut violin strings, Nov 2011
Cows, nappies – EU is forcing cows to wear nappies, Oct 2014
Corporate credit cards, expenses – EU officials spends £85 million on specially issued credit cards, August 2015
Crayons, lead, toys – Eurocrats are clamping down on colouring pencils (Jan, 2017)
Credit card payments, transaction fees – Millions of Britons will lose credit card perks because of EU, Apr 2015
Cricket teas – Traditional cricket teas will be subjected to random hygiene checks, Apr 1993
Crime, victims – EU favours criminals over victims, Mar 2012
Crisps, prawn cocktail – EC to ban prawn cocktail crisps, Jan 1993
Crisps, smoky bacon – Smoky bacon crisps to be banned, May 2003
Crockery, dinner service – EU “embassies” spending millions on crockery, July 2015
Cucumbers – EC to ban curved cucumbers, May 1993
Cucumbers – Cucumbers must be straight, Mar 1998
Cucumbers – Quality standards ban curved cucumbers and certain apples, Jun 1993
Curriculum – Brussels to develop Europe-wide school curriculum, Aug 2000
Curriculum Vitae (CV) – Euro CV to create more discrimination, Feb 2002
D
Darts, to be banned in pubs – Commission plans to outlaws darts in pubs, Jun 1993
Data protection, and journalism – Data protection laws to “kill-off” investigative journalism, Oct 1993
Dentistry – EU outlaws teeth whitening products, Feb 2003
Dentists, doctors – EU blocking vital checks on doctors’ qualifications, Apr 2016
Designer goods – On Sale: The designer bargains Brussels banned, Aug 1998
Devolution – Devolution is an EU scam, Dec 1998
Digital products, VAT rules – Brussels making life impossible for small online businesses, Apr 2015
Diplomatic immunity – EU workers immune from law, Mar 2005
Dinner service, crockery – EU “embassies” spending millions on crockery, July 2015
DIY – EU rules ban the DIY electricians, Nov 2004
Doctors – EU doctors in UK a threat to patients, Sep 2016
Doctors, dentists – EU blocking vital checks on doctors’ qualifications, Apr 2016
Doctors, language skills – UK hospital have to employ people who do not speak English, Apr 2012
Doctors and GPs, training – Hundreds of GPs to be forced to acquire additional qualifications, Sep 1994
Doctors and GPs, working hours – 58 hour working week will ground hospitals to a halt, Aug 2004
Doctors and GPs, working hours – UK doctors unable to treat off shore patients at night, Feb 1999
Dogs, breeding – EU seeks to outlaw 60 dog breeds, Jul 1995
Dogs, breeding – Queen’s corgis to be outlawed, Apr 2002
Dogs, dog bones – Giving a dog a bone is to be banned, May 2004
Domain names – All “.co.uk” domain names to replaced with “.eu”, Feb 2000
Double-decker buses – EU safety rules will dispose of London double-decker, Jan 1995
Double-decker buses – Double-decker buses to be banned, Apr 1998
Drink-driving limits – EU to cut drink-driving limits, Jan 2001
Driving, congestion charges – UK motorists should pay congestion charge to drive in every town, Feb 2016
Driving, fines, speeding tickets – EU to fine British drivers , Jan 2017
Driving licences, HGV drivers – HGV drivers not permitted to wear glasses, Feb 1996
Dumping, fridges – EU environmental plans lead to thousands of dumped fridges, Nov 2004
E
Eco-labels, toilets – EU wants to regulate toilets, Oct 2013
Economat – Officials shop tax-free in exclusive Brussels supermarket, Sep 1999
Economic policy, Country-specific recommendations – EU tells PM to tear up economic policy, June 2014
Eggs – New eggs cannot be called eggs, Aug 2000
Eggs, sold by the dozen – EU plans to ban the sale of eggs by the dozen, Jun 2010
Eggs – EU orders eggs to be stamped with home address, Feb 2003
Elections – EU may force UK to give criminals vote, Feb 2006
Electrical goods, voltage – EU voltage harmonisation plan threatens British appliances, Feb 1995
Electric blankets – Regulators to set maximum heat of electric blankets, leaving pensioners cold, Oct 1993
Electric plugs – UK to be forced to adopt continental two pin plug, Jun 1994
E-mark – 999 services safe from EU interference, Oct 2001
Emergency number – Britain to phase out 999 emergency number, Jan 2000
Emissions, sulphur, shipping – EU fuel diktat could slap £50 on your ferry ticket, Dec 2014
Emissions trading scheme – EU green levy will add £130 to the cost of a family holiday, Jan 2012
Energy efficiency, Sunday roasts – EU is targeting the Sunday roast, Jan 2015
English Channel – English Channel to be re-named ‘Anglo-French Pond’, Apr 2010
Environment – ‘Open Skies’ treaty threatens fight agains global warming, Feb 2006
EU accounts, Court of Auditors report – EU accounts not signed off…again, Nov 2013
EU budget, UK contribution – Brussels demands extra £500m from UK taxpayers, May 2014
EU budget, UK contribution – Massive increase in UK contribution, Nov 2014
EU budget – £19.4 billion “black hole” in the EU budget, Jun 2016
EU cost – Britain’s payments to Brussels rises by £500m, Aug 2009
EU flag – Brussels forces Government department to fly EU flag, June 2012
EU flag – UK authorities forced to fly EU flag, Jan 2014
EU flag sports teams – EU stipulates that sports teams should wear the EU flag, Nov 2011
EURES, job mobility – EU pays jobless migrants to come to Britain, August 2015
Euro see Single Currency
European Arrest Warrent – UK opt-in is an EU power-grab, July 2014
European Commission President – EC President has the sole right to promulgate EU-wide legislation, July 2014
European Rapid Reaction Force – EU launches its own army, Nov 2000
Exams – EU to scrap British exams, Jan 2000
Expenses, corporate credit cards – EU officials spends £85 million on specially issued credit cards, August 2015
Excavated earth – Excavated earth to become waste, March 1995
Eye tests, for HGV drivers – HGV drivers not permitted to wear glasses, February 1996
F
Farming, organic, homeopathy – Organic farmers ordered by EU to use homeopathic medicine, Apr 2015
Farms, toys – Farmers forced to issue pigs with toys, Jan 2003
Farms, tractors – Tractors to be banned from soggy fields, Jan 2005
Fines, driving, speeding tickets – EU to fine British drivers , Jan 2017
Firearms, sale of – Britain to be flooded with cheap weapons thanks to the single market, Jan 1993
Fire doors, required when working from home – Self-employed home-workers must equip their houses with fire doors, Jun 1993
Fire exit signs – Running battle over fire exit rules, Dec 1998
Firemen, fireman’s pole – Fireman’s pole to be axed by European law, Jun 2002
Firemen, uniforms – New uniforms for firemen, Nov 1992
Fire protection, furniture – Will the single market ban foam-filled furniture?, Jan 1993
Fireworks – EC to weaken firework safety standards, Oct 1993
Fisheries, Common Fisheries Policy – Common Fisheries Policy is illegal under British law, Jan 1993
Fishermen, hairnets – Commission to force fishermen to wear hair-nets, Oct 1992
Fishing boats, condom supplies – Fishing boats obliged to carry condoms, Nov 1992
Fishing boats, medical kits – Small inshore fishing boats to be forced to carry extensive medical kits, Dec 1994
Fishing boats, secret holds and quotas – UK fish quota being stolen aided by “conspicuous” lack of inspectors, Jul 1993
Fish, labelling – EU to force retailers to call fish by their Latin names, Sep 2001
Fish processing, smells – EC Directive orders “fishy smell” to be contained, Jan 1994
Flag, EU flag – UK authorities forced to fly EU flag, Jan 2014
Floods – EU to blame for floods, Jan 2016
Flushing, toilets, eco-labels – EU wants to regulate toilets, Oct 2013
Food, Allergen rules – UK diners will face £200m for EU allergen rules, Nov 2014
Food, ingredients – Home-made cakes must be labelled with all ingredients, Jul 2004
Food, ingredients – Women’s Institute home-made produce requires full list of ingredients, Jun 2005
Food hygiene, cricket teas – Traditional cricket teas will be subjected to random hygiene checks, Apr 1993
Food, meat – Local meat products under threat from new EC Health Directives, Jan 1993
Food, rare meat in restaurants – Rare meat to be banned due to “too much bacteria”, Sep 1993
Food, street vendors – Street vendors face closure due to an EC food hygiene Directive, Nov 1992
Food products, tin cans – Queries over tin can standardisation, Mar 1993
Foodstuffs, colours for – Commission outlaws dyes which give haddocks their distinctive golden hue, Jan 1993
Foodstuffs, condiments in sachets – Condiments must be offered in sachets, Apr 1993
Food supplements – EC to stop UK citizens taking extra strong multi-vitamin pills, Feb 1993
Food waste, for swans, charities etc. – Feeding swans and homeless people to require license, Feb 1994
Football matches, noise – Noise regulations to require club, pub and football goers to wear earplugs, Mar 2002
Free movement, residency, benefits, NHS – EU rights to reside in another member state, EU benefit claimants and NHS treatment entitlement, Feb 2013
Fridges, temperature – Barmy EU colder fridges’ order will cost us £100m, Dec 2011
Fridges, dumping – EU environmental plans lead to thousands of dumped fridges, Nov 2004
Fruit and vegetables (see also Apples; Bananas; Cucumbers; Leeks; Mushy peas; Nectarines; Peaches; Rhubarb; Strawberries), quality standards – Quality standards ban curved cucumbers and certain apples, Jun 1993
Funerals – Traditional Irish funerals under threat, Apr 2006
Furniture, foam-filled (fire protection) – Will the single market ban foam-filled furniture?, Jan 1993
G
Gambling venues, ID requirements – ID required at casinos, Apr 1995
Game birds, emtryl – EC rules will ruin rearers of game birds, Jan 1996
Game birds – Farmers to be encouraged to mow land early resulting in “massacre” of game, May 1993
Game birds, wild game meat – Hunters to be required to carry a fridge and be accompanied by a vet, Jan 1993
Gardening, plants – EU wants to ban sale of British plants, Sep 2013
Gin, round vs. square bottles – Gin to be sold in round bottles for the Single Market, Oct 1993
Global warming – ‘Open skies’ treaty threatens fight against global warming, Feb 2006
Gold – British hallmark for silver and gold to be replaced, March 1993
GPs see Doctors and GPs
Grimsby, fishy smell – EC Directive orders “fishy smell” to be contained, Jan 1994
Guns, museums – EU to force museums to destroy gun collections, Dec 2015
H
Habeas Corpus – EU set to abandon habeas corpus, Nov 1998
Haddock, dye for – Commission outlaws dyes which give haddocks their distinctive golden hue, Jan 1993
Hairdressers, safety at work – EU bans high heels for salon staff, Apr 2012
Hairnets, fishermen – Commission to force fishermen to wear hair-nets, Oct 1992
Hallmarks – Hallmarks on jewellery, Mar 1998
Hallmarks – British hallmark for silver and gold to be replaced, Mar 1993
Hallmarks – “Made in Britain” label to be scrapped, Nov 2003
Hard hats – Circus performers must wear hard hats, Jul 2003
Hay fever, rapeseed – EU responsible for your hay fever, May 2015
Hedgerows – Brussels to tear up hedgerows, Mar 2000
Herbal cures – Brussels to ban herbal cures, Mar 1999
Herbal medicines – License to be required to sell herbal medicines, Oct 1994
Herbal medicines – Update on whether license to be required to sell herbal medicines, Nov 1994
HGV drivers, driving licences and eye tests – HGV drivers not permitted to wear glasses, Feb 1996
HGV rules – Barmy EU rule which forces mechanics to carry out specialist driving training is to be scrapped, Aug 2013
HGV training rules – Christmas deliveries put at risk by EU, Dec 2014
History, teaching of – History programmes to be more euro-centric, Jul 1999
Holidays, package tours – Package tour firms may only be paid once customers have returned home, Nov 1993
Home-made produce, ingredients – Women’s Institute home-made produce requires full list of ingredients, Jun 2005
Homeopathy, organic farming – Organic farmers ordered by EU to use homeopathic medicine, Apr 2015
Home working, fire doors required – Self-employed home-workers must equip their houses with fire doors, Jun 1993
Horses, veterinary products – Horses to no longer receive medicine that would make them unsafe for consumption, Jan 1994
Hot-air balloons – Commission wasting hundreds of thousands on hot air balloons, Nov 1992
I
ID, European ID – European identity cards to be required by all EU citizens, Sep 1999
ID, required for gambling venues – ID required at casinos, Apr 1995
ID, requirements for opening bank accounts – Children to be prevented from opening bank accounts due to ID laws, Apr 1995
Immunity, Diplomatic – EU workers immune from law, Mar 2005
Imperial measurements, pounds and ounces – EU bans punds and ounces, Sep 2016
Independent cinema, film – EU threat to British film industry, Feb 2015
Island, definition of – Bureaucrats declare Britain is “not an island”, Jan 2003
J
Jam jars – Reusing jars for homemade jams for sale at charity events, Oct 2012
Jam, sugar content – EU wants to cut minimum sugar content in jam, Nov, 2013
Jets, low-flying – MOD to be forced to pay compensation for military jet noise pollution, Dec 1995
Job mobility, EURES – EU pays jobless migrants to come to Britain, August 2015
Journalism, and data protection – Data protection laws to “kill-off” investigative journalism, Oct 1993
Justice (see also European Court of Human Rights)
Justice, habeas corpus – EU set to abandon habeas corpus. Nov 1998
Justice, sentencing – EU to scrap life sentence, Oct 2004
Justice, wigs – Traditional barristers wig to be scrapped, Apr 2002
K
Kent, county of – Kent now part of France, Sep 2006
Kettles, toasters – EU to regulate your kettles and toasters, May 2016
Kilts – Kilts to be classified as women’s wear, Nov 2003
L
Labelling – Row over Latin labels, May 1999
Lamp posts – EC to replace traditional street lamps, Jun 1993
Landfills, recycling targets – EU steps up recycling targets to eliminate landfills, July 2014
Lawnmowers – Brussels targeting lawnmowers, Sep 2014
Language skills, doctors – UK hospitals have to employ people who do not speak English, Apr 2012
Lead, toys, crayons – Eurocrats are clamping down on colouring pencils (Jan, 2017)
Leeks – Leek sizes to be standardised by EU, Mar 2002
Library, Commission – EC library to cost £2,138 for every book borrowed, Feb 2005
Licence fees, broadcasting – EC planning to ban license fees as “state aids”, Sep 1994
Licence plates, motor vehicles – Commission to push for euro-wide licence plate, Oct 1994
License plates – Brussels to ban British emblems on licence plates, Aug 1999
Life sentencing – EU to scrap life sentence, Oct 2004
Light ale – What’s in a name, May 2005
Light bulbs – Light bulbs lose wattage marking, May 2009
Listeria – Hysteria about listeria, Feb 1995
Lollipop ladies – EU to ban lollipop ladies’ sticks, Jul 1999
Lollipop signs – Lollipop signs to receive European wide harmonised design, Jun 1995
Lorries – New EU rules will wipe out 17,000 lorry firms, Jun 1998
M
Made in Britain – Bags made in the UK from leather made in Italy will no longer be able to use a “Made in Britain” tag, Aug 2013
Maps – No EU plans to abolish Britain!, Apr 2008
Maps – Kent now part of France, Sep 2006
Maps, UK – EU redraws map of the UK, Apr 1999
Maps – Bureaucrats declare Britain is “not an island”, Jan 2003
Maps, London – Trafalgar Square and Waterloo station to be renamed, Oct 2003
Markets, Nottingham – EU rules restricting market stalls from having tills, May 2016
Meat, British, Union flag – EU wants to ban Union flag from British meat packs, Sep 2013
Meat, pork chops – Pork chops can no longer be sold with kidneys, Feb 1993
Meat, rare, in restaurants – Rare meat to be banned due to “too much bacteria”, Sep 1993
Meat products, hygiene standards – Local meat products under threat from new EC Health Directives, Jan 1993
Media, control, regulation – Brussels wants to control media regulators, Jan 2013
Medical devices – European Commission approve unsafe high-risk medical devices, Jul 2016
Medical kits, for fishing boats – Small inshore fishing boats to be forced to carry extensive medical kits, Dec 1994
Medicines (see also Veterinary products)
Medicines, herbal – License to be required to sell herbal medicines, Oct 1994
Medicines, herbal – Update on whether license to be required to sell herbal medicines, Nov 1994
Medicines, labelling – Medicines to receive Latin labelling, May 1999
Medicines, use of human medicines on animals – Human medicines to be forbidden for use on animals, Feb/Mar 1995
Metrication – Brussels drive to rob us of British identity, June 2010
Metrication – EU imposes metric measurements on UK, Jan 2001
Metrication – Pinta and loaf packaging under threat, Jan 2006
Metrication, acres – Acres are outlawed by Brussels, Jul 2008
Metrication, sale of mixed drink pints – EU to ban sales of mixed drink pints in pubs, Nov 1994
Metrication, weighing instruments – Delicacies must be sold in quantities over one and a quarter pounds, Feb 1995
Metrication, wine sales – Wine must be served in government stamped glasses by standard quantities, Dec 1994
Migration – Outrage as EU stitch Brits up over migrants, Jun 2003
Migration, benefits – Brussels grabbing UK welfare, 2012
Migration, benefit tourism – 600,000 unemployed EU migrants in the UK, October 2013
Migration, tax avoidance – EU migrants can avoid tax in the UK, Jan 2014
Military, army vehicles – Army to be forced to upgrade trailers in line with EU Directive, Jun 2005
Milk, bottles – EU to ban glass milk bottles, Jul 2001
Milk, butter – Traditional brandy butter to be banned, Jun 1998
Milk, doorstep pint – Open air floats and glass bottles to face ban under hygiene laws, Mar 1993
Milk, jugs – Euro meddlers rule we can’t have milk jugs, Feb 2010
Milk, milk-rounds – Children will be banned from milk-rounds due to EU directive, Aug 1998
Milk, soya – Soya milk indistinguishable from cow milk and thus to be banned, April 1995
Milk, yoghurt – EU plans to rename yogurt, Nov 2003
Milk of Magnesia – EU to ban Milk of Magnesia, Jul 2013
Mince pies – EU to rename mince pies, Oct 2002
Model railways – Model railways under threat from EU, May 2002
Money laundering – Children to be prevented from opening bank accounts due to ID laws, Apr 1995
Money laundering – ID required at casinos, Apr 1995
Monuments, photography – EU banning tourist photos of the London Eye, June 2015
Mother Christmas outfits – Politically correct Eurocrats say Santa must be a woman, Oct 2001
Motor vehicles, bull bars – EU halting British move to ban bull bars, Apr 1995
Motor vehicles, car washing – EC to demand petrol interceptors in drains or ban car washing, Nov 1993
Motor vehicles, licence plates – Commission to push for euro-wide licence plate, Oct 1994
Motor vehicles, MOT tests – British MOT tests to be made less stringent, Apr 1994
Motor vehicles, trailers – Army to be forced to upgrade trailers in line with EU Directive, Jun 2005
Motorway parapets – Councils required to upgrade motorway parapets, Feb 1994
Mountaineering see Climbers; Rescue services
Mountains, signs – “High up” signs to be put on mountains, Mar 2004
Mozzarella, cheese – EU calling for Italians to produce mozzarella using powdered milk, July 2015
MPs, Roma – EU could impose quotas of Roma MPs in the UK, Sep 2013
Murderers, release dates – Compulsory release dates for murderers, Mar 1994
Mushy peas – Commission to outlaw mushy peas, Aug 1995
Mushrooms – EU rule may cut mushroom jobs, Aug 1998
Mussels – Shellfish must be given rest breaks whilst on journeys, Jan 1996
Mustard, French – EU axes French mustard, Apr 2001
N
News channel, Euro – European news network and soap opera authorised by EC, Jun 1993
Newspaper delivery, by young people – Young people forced to give up paper rounds, Nov 1992
Newspapers, VAT – UK government forced to abolish zero rate VAT in books and newspapers, Mar 1993
NHS, benefits, free movement, residency – EU rights to reside in another member state, EU benefit claimants and NHS treatment entitlement, Feb 2013
Noise pollution, bagpipes – EU safety directives to ban playgrounds, trapeze artists and bagpipes, Aug 2005
Noise pollution, bagpipes – Bagpipes to be quietened by an edict from Brussels, Apr 2008
Noise pollution, Cannons – 21-gun salutes to be muffled, Mar 2006
Noise pollution, church bells – Village church bells silenced by EU, Oct 2002
Noise pollution, low-flying jets – MOD to be forced to pay compensation for military jet noise pollution, Dec 1995
Noise pollution, night clubs and pubs – Noise regulations to require club, pub and football goers to wear earplugs, Mar 2002
Noise pollution, toys – EC to ban noisy toys, Jan 1996
Nottingham, Sneiton Market – EU rules restricting market stalls from having tills, May 2016
Noise pollution, earmuffs at work – EU to enforce earmuff ruling, Jan 2002
Number plates – Brussels imposes EU flag on car number plates, Aug 1998
Number plates – British car number plates to be axed by EU, April 2014
Nurses, traditional belts and buckles – Nurses uniform to be dictated by Brussels, Oct 1996
O
Oak trees – EU to prevent the sale of English oak seeds, Nov 1994
Organic farming, homeopathy – Organic farmers ordered by EU to use homeopathic medicine, Apr 2015
Off-licenses – EU to ban British off-licenses, Feb 2005
Oil – EU to seize UK oil stock, May 2003
Olympics – EU funds Athens Olympics rescue, Apr 2004
Origin marking – “Made in Britain” labels to be axed, Jan 2004
Ovens, wood burning – Brussels to ban wood burning ovens, Dec 1999
P
Package tours, passenger transport – EC regulations forbid the carrying of British passengers, Nov 1992
Packaging – Pinta and loaf packing under threat from EU, Jan 2006
Packaging, British meat – EU wants to ban Union flag from British meat packs, Sep 2013
Paddling pools – Paddling pools deeper than 12 inches must have full-time lifeguard, Jan 1993
Passports – European passport will replace national passports, Oct 2000
Passports – Her Majesty to be removed from UK passports, Sep 2007
Pasta – Fresh pasta banned, Apr 2002
Peaches – Eurocrats to ban small fruits, Jul 2001
Peas, mushy – Commission to outlaw mushy peas, Aug 1995
Pensions – Eurocrat pensioners dodge taxes, July 2012
Pensions, final salary scheme – EU will force the closure of final salary pensions chemes, Feb 2012
Perfume – EU threatens future of Chanel and Dior perfumes, May 2014
Peru, drugs – Taxpayers money used to rehabilitate Peruvian drug addicts, Jul 2014
Petrol prices – EU behind 3p a litre petrol price hike, July 2014
Petrol stations, control of petrol storage emissions – Hundreds of small petrol stations to be forced to meet new Vapour regulations, Feb 1993
Petrol stations, use of jerrycans – EC legislation forbids the use of jerrycans on garage forecourts, Apr 1993
Pets, dead – Dead pets must be pressure cooked before burial, Mar 2000
Phones, poll tax (see also Telephone enquiries)
Phone tax – Commission to tax every phone line £30, Sep 2000
Photography, tourism – EU banning tourist photos of the London Eye, June 2015
Pies, mince – EU to rename mince pies, Oct 2002
Pigs, toys – Farmers forced to issue pigs with toys, Jan 2003
Pine trees, rosin – Rosin to be banned from use in products, Apr 1995
Pints, legality of sale in pubs – EU to ban sales of mixed drink pints in pubs, Nov 1994
Pizza ovens – Wood burning ovens to be banned, Dec 1999
Pizza, sizes – EU to regulate pizza sizes, Oct 1994
Place names – EU to rename UK place names, Oct 2003
Planes, low flying jets – MOD to be forced to pay compensation for military jet noise pollution, Dec 1995
Plants – EU money wasted on plants and wildlife, Aug 2001
Plants – EU wants to ban sale of British plants, Sep 2013
Plasma screen TVs – Banning plasma TVs, Jan 2009
Playgrounds, safety – EU safety directives to ban playgrounds, trapeze artists and bagpipes, Aug 2005
Playgrounds, safety – Safety rules force the closure of UK playgrounds, Oct 2003
Playgrounds, safety, speed limits – Speed limits to be enforced on children’s roundabouts, Oct 2004
Playgrounds, safety, swings – A village has to remove its swings due to safety rules, Jan 2003
Plugs, Euro-plugs – UK to be forced to adopt continental two pin plug, Jun 1994
Police, European – A European integrated police force to be implemented, Apr 2001
Political parties, canvassing and direct mail – Political parties to be banned from canvassing and advertising, Nov 1993
Political parties, funding – EU to fund the Labour and LibDems but not the Conservatives, Jan 2000
Poppies – Remembrance Day poppies to face VAT charge, Aug 2003
Pork chops – Pork chops can no longer be sold with kidneys, Feb 1993
Pornography – UK screens being flooded by pornography as a result of new EC directive, Jan 1993
Postcards, saucy seaside – EC to ban “sexist” saucy seaside postcards, Mar 1993
Potato prices – Potato prices set to soar due to bad crop and EU rules, Jan 1995
Pounds and ounces, imperial measurements, – EU bans punds and ounces, Sep 2016
Prams, second hand – EC to prevent the sale of second hand prams, Jan 1993
Prawn cocktail crisps – EC to ban prawn cocktail crisps, Jan 1993
Prison release dates – EU rules on compulsory release dates for murderers, Mar 1994
Prizes – EU to ban prizes over 70k on prize shows, May 2003
Promotions – 2-for1 bargains to be banned, Sep 1999
Propaganda, brainwashing – EU brainwashing children, Jan 2012
Public procurement rules – How EU rules weeded out Parliament’s loyal florist, Jul 2013
Pubs, barmaids – EU health directive to prevent barmaids from showing cleavage, Aug 2005
Pubs, darts – Commission plans to outlaws darts in Pubs, Jun 1993
Pubs, language – You’re alright, love – The EU is not banning saying ‘love’ in pubs, Mar 2008
Pubs, noise – Noise regulations to require club, pub and football goers to wear earplugs, Mar 2002
Pubs, price list display – EC planning to make British pubs display their price lists, Jul 1993
Pubs, sale of cigars – Sales of cigars to fall due to be sold individually with a health warning, Jan 1994
Pubs, sale of pints – EU to ban sales of mixed drink pints in pubs, Nov 1994
Q
The Queen, dogs – Queen’s corgis to be outlawed – Apr 2002
Queen, tea – Queen to be forced to get her own tea, Feb 1999
R
Rapeseed, hay fever – EU responsible for your hay fever, May 2015
Recycling – Sex toys must be handed in, Feb 2004
Recycling – EU regulations will force householders to use 5 bins for recycling, Aug 2013
Recycling, tax – EU to introduce tax on recycling, Feb 2016
Recycling targets, landfills – EU steps up recycling targets to eliminate landfills, July 2014
Red tape, broadband speeds, – EU red tape force down broadband speeds, May 2016
Red tape, business – UK businesses strangled by EU red tape, Oct 2013
Refugees – Misunderstanding between EU and UN asylum laws, Feb 2000
Regional governments – Veil is lifted on new order for Britain, Dec 1998
Regions, covert governance – Brussels to bypass national governments via regions, Apr 1998
Regions, map – EU redraws map of the UK, Apr 1999
Regions, map – A Europe without the UK, Apr 1999
Regions, devolution – Devolution is an EU scam, Dec 1998
Remembrance Day, poppies – Remembrance Day poppies to face VAT charge, Aug 2003
Rescue services, mountains – New procurement rules threaten rescue teams, Mar 1995
Rescue services, emergency number – Britain to phase out 999 emergency number, Jan 2000
Residency, benefits, free movement, NHS – EU rights to reside in another member state, EU benefit claimants and NHS treatment entitlement, Feb 2013
Restaurants, rare meat – Rare meat to be banned due to “too much bacteria”, Sep 1993
Rhubarb – British rhubarb must be straight, Jun 1996
Roads, motorway parapets – Councils required to upgrade motorway parapets, Feb 1994
Road safety, traffic offences abroad – European police get powers to track down British motoring offenders, May 2014
Roads, numbers – Eurocrats change traditional road numbers, Sep 2001
Rocking horses – EU to ban rocking horses, Nov 2003
Roma, MPs – EU could impose quotas of Roma MPs in the UK, Sep 2013
Roundabouts – Speed limits to be enforced on children’s roundabouts, Oct 2004
Royal Navy, Christmas puddings – EU bans wooden oars for stirring the Christmas Pudding, Nov 1992
Rubbish collections – EU regulations will force householders to use 5 bins for recycling, Aug 2013
S
Safety at work, hairdressers, – EU bans high heels for salon staff, Apr 2012
Sausage – The infamous” euro-sausage” threatens British bangers, Jun 2001
Schools, lessons abroad for pupils – European secondary school pupils to spend a “free” year abroad, Apr 1993
Scooters – 10m scooters face axe in ‘cat’ call, Oct 1998
Scotch whisky – EC interference in whisky distilleries, Nov 1992
Scotch whisky – Scotch whisky must be handled as a dangerous chemical, Nov 1995
Seat belts, on coaches and buses – Britain powerless to introduce new seat belt laws without backing from the EC, Nov 1993
Sex – EU asks women about their sex lives, Nov 2007
Sex discrimination – EU to end deals on the golf course, Oct 2001
Sex toys – Women to be forced to hand in old sex toys, Feb 2004
Shandy – Brussels ban on pints of shandy, Jan 1999
Shellfish, cockles – Scores of foreign boats to invade Essex coast, Nov 1992
Shellfish – Cockle-traders to be forced to buy expensive steaming equipment, Feb 1993
Shellfish, mussels – Shellfish must be given rest breaks whilst on journeys, Jan 1996
Shellfish, whelks – Whelks have to be stored at an EC regulated temperature, Oct 1993
Shepherds’ crooks – Carved horns to be banned, Apr 2000
Shipping, sulphur emissions – EU fuel diktat could slap £50 on your ferry ticket, Dec 2014
Shoes – EU anti-dumping measures lead to price hike, Apr 2000
Signs – “High up” signs to be put on mountains, Mar 2004
Silver (see also Hallmarks) – British hallmark for silver and gold to be replaced, Mar 1993
Silver Cross prams – EC to prevent the sale of second hand prams, Jan 1993
Single currency, health – The single currency can bring on depression, May 1999
Single currency, health – Nickel in euro coins will make you sick, Dec 2001
Single currency, health – Euro notes responsible for impotency, Mar 2002
Ski resorts, snow – EC to prevent skiing when depth of snow is less than 20 cm, Nov 1992
Slaughterhouses – EC hygiene rules force closure of abattoirs, Nov 1992
Smacking, ban of – EU Court may ban smacking, Jun 1998
Smell, research into – EU trying to quantify smell of British workers, Sep 1996
Smoking – EU ban on ciggie breaks? Just hot air, Jun 2007
Sneiton Market, Nottingham – EU rules restricting market stalls from having tills, May 2016
Soap Opera, Euro – European news network and soap opera authorised by EC, Jun 1993
Social media – EU to ban under 16-year olds from using social media, Dec 2015
Soya milk – Soya milk indistinguishable from cow milk and thus to be banned, Apr 1995
Speed control – Brussels to impose speed controls, Sep 2013
Speeding tickets, fines, driving, – EU to fine British drivers , Jan 2017
Staff, pay and tax of EU civil servants – EC employees are over-paid and do not pay tax, March 1993
Staff, pensions – EU staff retire early with huge pensions, Aug 2005
Statistics, collection of intra-Community trade – Collection of intra-EC trade statistics to fall on businesses, Jan 1993
Steam trains, drivers – New safety legislation prevents drivers from operating steam trains, Jul 1994
Steam trains, miniature – Directive will ban boilers for miniature locomotives, May 2002
Strawberries – Strawberries must be oval, Mar 1998
Street lighting, brightness – EU regulations require brighter street lighting, Jan 1995
Street lighting, lamp posts – EC to replace traditional street lamps, Jun 1993
Street vendors, food hygiene – Street vendors face closure due to an EC food hygiene Directive, Nov 1992
Students, lessons abroad for – European secondary school pupils to spend a “free” year abroad, Apr 1993
Subsidiarity, prize for definition of – President of EC offers prize for definition of the term “subsidiarity”, Oct 1993
Sugar content, jam – EU wants to cut minimum sugar content in jam, Nov, 2013
Sugar quotas – Perverse lifting of sugar quotas by the EU, July 2014
Sulphur, emissions from shipping – EU fuel diktat could slap £50 on your ferry ticket, Dec 2014
Sunday roasts, energy efficiency – EU is targeting the Sunday roast, Jan 2015
Suntans, barmaids – EU health directive to prevent barmaids from showing cleavage, Nov 2005
Suntan, Commissioner – EU to get a “Suntan Commissioner”, Jun 2005
Sweets, advertising – Swedish Presidency will force a ban on sweet and toy ads, Feb 1999
Sweets, unwrapped – Brussels to forbid unwrapped sweets, Aug 1993
Swimming pools, safety standards – Paddling pools deeper than 12 inches must have full-time lifeguard, Jan 1993
Swings – A village has to remove its swings due to safety rules, Jan 2003
T
Tax avoidance, migration – EU migrants can avoid tax in the UK, Jan 2014
Tax harmonisation, sovereignty – Tax harmonisation programme will remove all tax powers from member states, Nov 1998
Tax harmonisation, Germanophobia – German finance ministers can abolish UK tax veto, Dec 1998
Tax, corporations – EU plots to tax Britain, May 2015
Tax, VAT – Brussels could force the UK to raise VAT rates and cause “a £2600 tax bombshell”, June 2016
Tax, phones – Brussels to tax every phone line £30, Sep 2000
Taxi services – London to face an influx of untrained taxi drivers, Jan 1993
Tea, teabags – EU to make recycling teabags illegal, Jan 2005
Tea, teasmades – Teasmades to be forbidden under new safety regulation, Feb 2002
Teeth – Now Brussels make bright smiles illegal, Feb 2003
Telephone enquiries – Commission to blame for new 118 enquiry number, Nov 2003
Thatching, banning – EU aiming to ban thatched roofs, Oct 2004
Thatching, cost – EC to make thatching uneconomical, Apr 1993
Three-crop rule, agriculture – EU tells British farmers what they can grow, Nov 2014
Theatre seats – West End to be hit by new seat rules, Feb 2000
Tin cans – Queries over tin can standardisation, Mar 1993
Toasters, kettles – EU to regulate your kettles and toasters, May 2016
Tobacco, subsidies – Brussels to reinstate tobacco subsidies, Feb 2013
Toilets – Euro-loo to replace British toilets, May 1999
Toilets – Traditional British toilet to be scrapped by Brussels, Apr 1995
Toilets, eco-labels, flushing – EU wants to regulate toilets, Oct 2013
Tourism, photography – EU banning tourist photos of the London Eye, June 2015
Toys, advertising – Swedish Presidency will force a ban on sweet and toy ads, Feb 1999
Toys, lead, crayons – Eurocrats are clamping down on colouring pencils (Jan, 2017)
Toys, imports of Chinese – Chinese toy imports are to be banned unless humanlike in form, Jul 1994
Toys, noisy – EC to ban noisy toys, Jan 1996
Toys, sale by charity shops – Charity shops banned from selling second hand toys, Mar 1993
Toys, sex – Women to be forced to hand in old sex toys, Feb 2004
Tractors – Tractors to be banned from soggy fields, Jan 2005
Tractors – Farmers given time-limit on tractor use, Oct 2002
Trade statistics, collection of intra-Community – Collection of intra-EC trade statistics to fall on businesses, Jan 1993
Trafalgar Square – Trafalgar Square and Waterloo station to be renamed, Oct 2003
Traffic offences abroad, road safety, – European police get powers to track down British motoring offenders, May 2014
Trailers – Army to be forced to upgrade trailers in line with EU Directive, Jun 2005
Transaction fees, credit card payments – Millions of Britons will lose credit card perks because of EU, Apr 2015
Trapeze artists, Africa – EU funding for African acrobats and trapeze artists, July 2015
Travel, budget airlines – EU officials banned from flying Ryanair, Mar 2012
Truckers’ fry ups – EU bans lorry drivers’ British breakfast, Sep 2001
Trees see Oaks; Pine trees
TTIP – TTIP will leave EU member states and the European Parliament further sidelined, Mar 2016
Turkeys – EC to tamper with turkeys , Dec 1992
TVs – Banning plasma TVs, Jan 2009
V
Vaccuum cleaners, energy saving – EU to ban powerful vaccuum cleaners, Jun 2013
Vaccuum cleaners – Tidying up the rules, Sep 2014
Valentine’s Day cards – Unwanted Valentine’s cards to be defined as sexual harassment, Apr 1995
VAT, books and newspapers – UK government forced to abolish zero rate VAT in books and newspapers, Mar 1993
VAT, children’s clothes – Euro tax on kids’ clothes – secret VAT stitch-up revealed, Nov 1998
VAT, church – EU to may churches pay full VAT, Sep 2003
VAT, control – British power over VAT rates to be abolished, Mar 2000
VAT rules, digital products – Brussels making life impossible for small online businesses, Apr 2015
VAT, tax – Brussels could force the UK to raise VAT rates and cause “a £2600 tax bombshell”, June 2016
Vegetables see Fruit and vegetables
Veterinary products, game birds – EC rules will ruin rearers of game birds, Jan 1996
Veterinary products, horses – Horses to no longer receive medicine that would make them unsafe for consumption, Jan 1994
Victory Day – B17 fly pass grounded by Brussels, May 2005
Video recording and copyright – Copyright Tax to be levied on all home VCR recordings, Mar 2000
Vitamin supplements – EC to stop UK citizens taking extra strong multi-vitamin pills, Feb 1993
Violin strings, cow guts – EU bans cow gut violin strings, Nov 2011
Vitamin supplements – EU to ban vitamin supplements, Mar 2002
Vocational training – EU gives £1m to train Italian TV presenter “bimbos”, Jul 2003
Voltage reduction – EU voltage harmonisation plan threatens British appliances, Feb 1995
Voting – EU may force UK to give criminals vote, Feb 2006
Vultures – EU rules blamed for vulture attacks on farm livestock, Aug 2007
W
Walnuts – Brussels rules threatens walnuts, Mar 2001
Waste disposal – EU law to create ‘Electrical mountain’, Mar 2002
Waste, excavated earth – Excavated earth to become waste, Mar 1995
Waste, food waste for swans, charities etc. – Feeding swans and homeless people to require licence, Feb 1994
Waterloo Station – Trafalgar Square and Waterloo station to be renamed, Oct 2003
Water meters – Every home to be fitted with costly water meter, Aug 2000
Wattage markings – Light bulbs lose wattage markings, May 2009
Weapons, sale of – Britain to be flooded with cheap weapons thanks to the Single Market, Jan 1993
Weighing instruments – Delicacies must be sold in quantities over one and a quarter pounds, Feb 1995
Wheat, for thatching straw (see also Thatching)
Wheat, for thatching straw – EC to make thatching uneconomical, Apr 1993
Whelks, storage temperature – Whelks have to be stored at an EC regulated temperature, Oct 1993
Whisky – EC interference in whisky distilleries, Nov 1992
Whisky – Scotch whisky must be handled as a dangerous chemical, Nov 1995
Wigs – Traditional barristers wig to be scrapped, Apr 2002
Wildlife – EU money wasted on plants and wildlife, Aug 2001
Wildlife parks, elephant symbol on signs – Universal symbol for zoos to be the image of an elephant, Jun 1993
Wine, labels, aristocratic titles on – EC to register aristocrats to check for improper labelling of wine, Oct 1993
Wine, size of glass – Wine must be served in government stamped glasses by standard quantities, Dec 1994
Women, doctors – Hundreds of GPs to be forced to acquire additional qualifications, Sep 1994
Women, saucy postcards – EC to ban “sexist” saucy seaside postcards, Mar 1993
Valentine’s Day cards – Unwanted Valentine’s cards to be defined as sexual harassment, Apr 1995
Wood burning ovens – Brussels to ban wood burning ovens, Dec 1999
Worker consultation – Bosses to be told what carpet to buy, Jan 2004
Working conditions – EU meddlers ban kids on milk rounds, Aug 1998
Working from home, fire doors – Self-employed home-workers must equip their houses with fire doors, Jun 1993
Working Time Directive, doctors – 58 hour working week will ground hospitals to a halt, Aug 2004
Working Time Directive, doctors – UK doctors unable to treat off shore patients at night, Feb 1999
Workplace, rules – Companies required to consult staff on colour of carpets and types of tea bags, Jan 2004
Y
Yoghurt – EU plans to rename yogurt, Nov 2003
Yoghurt – EU says Brit yoghurt has to be called Fermented Milk Pudding, Mar 2006
Yoghurt – £700,000 to stop yoghurt going runny, Jan 1999
Young people, milk-rounds – Children will be banned from milk-rounds due to EU directive, Aug 1998
Young people, newspaper delivery – Young people forced to give up paper rounds, Nov 1992
Youth in Action – EU youth programme called propaganda, Oct 2006
Z
Zips – EU plans to ban zipper trousers, May 1999
Zoos, elephant symbol on signs – Universal symbol for zoos to be the image of an elephant, Jun 1993
Edukator-
I was busy replying to your previous post and about 4 other posts, that's why I missed that post. When I caught up, I responded with genuine interest, with an open mind, being prepared to learn something.
Genuine question again, would you click on something if I linked to it?
Kimbers-
Thing is mate, no one's pushing to brexit (or the equivalent) from local elections are they. Thats why I called it a false equivalence.
It's not what you say but what is said, we all infer stuff from each other's posts.
Sandwich-
Yes, when I finally caught up I noticed the title in French, that didn't discount the possibility that it could be subtitled. However, I did engage in good faith, prepared to be educated, instead I got edukated.
Raybanwomble-
I don't consider hippie to be an insult. I do consider Postmodern bulls**t to fall within the category of lazy insults though.
would you click on something if I linked to it?
No idea, I'd read what is visible, hover over it to check the URL looks safe and then make a decision. That takes very few seconds to do so I'd either click or move on. A Youtube from a prominent and respected politician posted in context I'd probably click. Anything by Jordan Peterson would get ignored and the person posting it added to my mental list of Internet wierdos - unless of course they were linking to prove what a wierdo Peterson is.
Malvern rider- edukator- ray ban womble-
Scientism is a faith like 'belief' in science.
To paraphrase John Gray, who I referred to earlier, (and no, he doesn't write for the gutter press, he writes those old things caĺed books, and contributes to the New Statesman among other publications)
Some people mistake science for revelation, rather than a coded system of signs and symbols used to describe a world we don't truly understand. Science can only be an approximation of reality.
He also posits that religion can be seen as more rational than reason, in that religion recognises the falliabilty of human beings, in that we make mistakes and often go on to repeat those mistakes. Religions recognise this and offer a system to live your life by, however absurd and fantastical. Reason posits that only through rational thinking can we solve our problems, and by acting 'rationally' we can solve all of our problems and perfect humanity but doesn't take account of human falliabilty, in that despite reason providing a pathway, we still repeat the same mistakes.
He's an atheist by the way, as am I.
So I'm suggesting that collectively The way in which you believe in science, or lets say written or coded facts, ( because all language is a code) mirrors that of religion.
I also mentioned Karl Popper, whose contribution to philosophy is the idea of 'Critical Rationalism. Where he distinguishes between the universal and the falsifiable, in that we can find hundreds of examples (facts, universal) to support our position, but it only takes one piece of information to falsify that position and thus debunk it. What Malvern rider has just posted correlates to this idea. Gray points to Einstein as a good example of falsifiabillity in that he posits theories that demand to be disproved. He cites Freud and Marx as examples of the universal in that psychoanalysts will each offer different theories which, though interesting can't be disproved (falsified) like wise with Marx and political positions if events don't correlate with the theory the theoretical model will become ' adjusted'
I guess he's suggests that we get closer to the truth of things by trying to disprove a position than piling up 'facts' that support our position. That's the approach I'm trying to take here, not that I'm trying to disprove any of you, more that I'm trying to look at my own position as a remain supporter and disprove (falsify) my own 'beliefs'.
Postmodern bulls**t If you like, I'm just trying to look at things from a different perspective, after all, this a forum for discussion.
Malvern rider-
There's an aesthetic dimention to your last post, in that I doubt many will read through the entire list of facts that you have posted, (and I concede they are facts in that they have been previously published, not made up by you) To an extent you are rellying on visual effect to umderline and support the validity of your position,
It's what I mean about trying to 'sell' your position, you are using visual weight as a tool for emphasis and persuasion. In a sense it's a form of sophistry, and I don't mean that as an insult because the brexit campaign used sophistry to it's utmost extent. It's just that sadly they were better sophists than us.
I do however respect the fact that you are not blaming the press as such and recognise propaganda (sophistry) for what it is.
guess he’s suggests that we get closer to the truth of things by trying to disprove a position than piling up ‘facts’ that support our position.
Well, what we have here is (AFAIK) a situation that was very largely created by piling up untruths (lies) which have both exploited and created the same fears and mistrusts.
Poison the well and then offer the ‘cure’.
It’s what I mean about trying to ‘sell’ your position,
Interesting take.
In a sense it’s a form of sophistry
Really?
- ‘Look at all the untruths we’ve been told. And here’s a link to the rebuttals...’
- ‘Ah yes, but you are in a sense doing the same thing! By making it look bad! By listing them! By showing where they have been rebutted!’
Malvern rider-
'Poison the well and offer the cure', best analogy posted here over the last couple of days.
It's very difficult to counter propaganda and sophistry with truth ( whatever that might be). Unfortunately remain couldn't fill the well with champagne. That's why I'm trying to think about what strategy would have been useful to counter the brexit BS?
I know we lost but there will be other battles to fight and we need a new set of tools (not weapons or insults) to put forward persuasive arguments so we don't continue to get steamrollered.
Many on here talk about resisting but they're not offering anything new in terms of how we can have a positive influence. They talk a good fight but they're actually just giving up, embracing intrasigence.
I’m trying to look at my own position as a remain supporter and disprove (falsify) my own ‘beliefs’.
I suspect you'll fail so long as your reasoning is fact based, and you aren't a hedge fund manager or sweat shop operator.
Junior did some work on Brexit at Science Po Paris, I don't remember it quoting Einstein, Marx, Popper, Gray, the Pope, Freud, Peterson, or even Sartre, Vian, de Beauvoir.
I'm an agnositc who goes on a pilgrimage every year. But I don't sit on the fence on Brexit, remain isn't a leap of faith it's a reasoned, rational choice .
Gray points to Einstein as a good example of falsifiabillity in that he posits theories that demand to be disproved.
That's exactly how the scientific method works, and has worked for decades.
You talk about science and facts like they're some sort of intangible, ephemeral thing. But as Dara O'Brian once said, "science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop." Whilst it's very very difficult to prove something unequivocally, there comes a point where there's sufficient evidence in favour of something and little or no evidence against it that we can take it to be true beyond any reasonable doubt. This does not require "faith" (other than perhaps a faith in the world's leading experts over centuries to know a little more about a subject than we do). And of course, if something does come along later which breaks that belief then we reevaluate our position.
Religion on the other hand tries to provide simplistic answers to complicated questions, requires no 'proof' at all and often demands that reality bends to fit its belief system. Not unlike brexit, really.
Unfortunately remain couldn’t fill the well with champagne
I think the point/perspective I am pursuing that in the ‘game’ of partisan politics that ‘truth’ is not seen as ‘champagne’.
ie IMO ‘conviction’ is the tipple that gets the soon-to-be ‘victor’ fighting drunk. Conviction, not truth. The ‘truth’ here is ‘whatever’ most potently serves the fermentation process. Truth (here) isn’t power. Conviction is power. Truth loses.
Every ‘jury’ needs to be convinced. I now feel that ‘10 Angry Men’ reached such a powerful conclusion because it was a work of fiction. Fluffy. Idealistic. Ironic. Looking back, I don’t believe that one man concerned with truth could easily if ever (by way of truth) convince another 9 to spend another minute in each other’s sweaty company. Especially when a fast exit is so easily achieved by the raising of a hand.
‘10 Angry Men’
Is that a prequel?
Cougar-
I can't see that were saying anything different to each other?
I concur completely with your assertion that there comes a point where there is so little or no evidence against something that we take it to be true beyond reasonable doubt, whilst still holding our the possibility that some evidence might come along in the future that might lead us to re- evaluate. That's why I gave Einstein as the supreme example of the scientific method.
Ditto your somethingion of religion.
My point I guess is what's good for Einstein does not stand up for us mere mortals posting our thoughts and political theories here, nothing we say here would stand up to scrutiny in the domain of the scientific method, we all use 'facts' as weapons (sophistry)
I'm suggesting that some are trotting out facts with a conviction that is beyond-beyond reasonable doubt and are not open to any form of re-evaluation, and in that sense it adheres, or mirrors a faith based approach.
Time is the best falsified of all and we are still in the eye of the storm, so we should be a little more sceptical / circumspect with regards to our own positions no?
With regards religion, wether we think it's right or wrong surely we have to recognise that lots of people are believers and that these belief systems have endured for millenia, we have to look to negotiate that rather than counter that, as you can see I'm also positing that faith isn't a binary thing, there are degrees of faith and faith itself is embedded in our DNA, even if we are aethist or agnostic. It's a hard thing to shake and some scientist who observe the scientific method also hold on to a religious faith ( holding more than one thought in their head at the same time!)
I used the term scientism to describe those who may see themselves as rational but adhere to only the first part of the scientific method, seeing something as being beyond reasonable doubt but not allowing for possibility of any new information emerging that might cause us to reconsider, maybe seeing political arguments as beyond reasonable doubt which isn't quite the same as MC squared. As Karl Popper asserts, science and politics are not the same thing.
BUT I DEFINITELY DON'T SEE SCIENCE AND FACTS AS SOME INTANGIBLE OR EPHEMERAL THING.
Sorry for that caps but I really want to emphasise that point, scientific ideas are expressed through language, (It's language that is the coded system of signs and symbols, not science itself)
A word for a thing is not the thing itself, the number 2 is not two things, it's a sign or a symbol that represents oris a substitute for the existence of two things. There's a space between language and reality, the difference between what we say things are and what they actually are, a liitle void where absolute truth will alwys be elusive, absolute truth will always be lost it translation. There lies the fallacy of scientism,
*12 Angry Men!
(grumblegrumble)
There’s a space between language and reality
Some people use language well to express things clearly, some don't.
When typing something one's objective should be to make one's messsage clear.
Work on making that space between language and reality invisibly small.
I can’t see that were saying anything different to each other?
Perhaps. In my defence I did struggle to unpick some of your more esoteric musings so may have misunderstood.
I’m suggesting that some are trotting out facts with a conviction that is beyond-beyond reasonable doubt
For example?
With regards religion, wether we think it’s right or wrong surely we have to recognise that lots of people are believers and that these belief systems have endured for millenia, we have to look to negotiate that rather than counter that,
We have to recognise it, sure, and we do. I'm less convinced that what someone thinks based on superstition holds equal merit as what someone thinks based on verifiable evidence.
In any case, in my experience many people with "beliefs" be that an organised religion or the cult of brexit desire neither to be countered nor negotiated, they just want to be right. Ideological beliefs are way harder to argue against as you cannot disprove something which does not have a proof in the first place, we're into Russell's Teapot territory again.
With regards religion, wether we think it’s right or wrong surely we have to recognise that lots of people are believers and that these belief systems have endured for millenia, we have to look to negotiate that rather than counter that,
Yes but religion is purely personal. It's up to you what you believe and it doesn't affect others.
With Brexit, leavers are jeopardising everyone's future and removing our rights and privileges based on superstition. So it would be like religious people taking over government and removing our right to marry whoever we love, have sex outside marriage, or have abortions. This would be widely recognised as a bad idea by most people.
Cougar-
I prefer to stand accused of esoteric musings, than be accused of being duped by the gutter press or being a brexit apologist!
Rather than dig through he last few pages I'd rather just sat that some here have expressed convictions that to me seem beyond-beyond reasonable doubt, even the word conviction has a certain inflexibility to it, suggesting immovable positions. To a degree we could say that belief in reason is a slightly oxymoronic phrase, you could say that belief is the abandonment of reason. That's why I referenced Critical Rationalism, because that way of thinking requires us to suspend our beliefs momentarily, in order to reconsider our own positions.
In the spirit of Critical Rationalism, If we can compare those with faith based beliefs to the cult of Brexit, surely we should also consider the possibility of a cult of remain as well. (And a cult of reason)
Reason is a product of the Enlightenment, accompanying the Scientific method and the concurrent move away from superstion based models of thinking. It also pressages the birth of the modern idea of the nation state. The French revolution was based on reason, as was communism and Fascism. Eugenics was also another by product of the Enlightenment.
Educator talks of his devotion to the European project, rightly pointing out it's relation to humanism (which predates the enlightenment but is an idea that runs concurrent with the enlightenment) He seems to see the European project as some kind of end game in politics, ethics , democracy and suchlike, a supreme human achievement.
Consider this...
Look at a map of the Europe, what do you see? 30 or so countries which all have crinkly borders that have been established over time throgh conflict and resolution, (and it's an on going process, even within the the confines of post war history we have seen the dissolution of the Soviet Bloc, the disintegration of the Balkans, the division of Checkoslova as well as on going issues in the Basque country, Catalonia, Ireland etc etc etc.
Now look at a map of Africa or the Middle East. What do we see There? Straight lines everywhere. All a product of the Enlightenment. All imposed (designed) by European powers beholden to the age of reason. The perfect humanist model we have created for ourselves in Europe doesn't extend to the rest of the world does it. Then we realise that the perfect European model we live in is not so perfect after all is it? It's actually quite messy and rather fluid. Yet we expect African and Middle eastern countries to just accept these rational models we have imposed on them. For all the turmoil in those parts of the globe their borders have actually stayed more fixed than the borders in Europe.
The relative stability we find in Europe is actually a product of human behaviours that have existed throughout history as much as they are a product of reason. Yet we expect the Africans to grow up and act more rationally.
Can't say as I've given Africa much consideration if I'm honest.
I don't think anyone has suggested that the European model (whatever that is) is "perfect," aside from leavers accusing remainers of thinking that it is and then weaponising that - "if you love the EU so much why don't you live there?" and many similar equally water-tight arguments.
I'd hazard that most remainers fully accept that the EU structure has plenty of room for improvement; indeed, this is a Page 2 discussion, I said right at the start that our message should have been "reform" rather than simply "remain." It's considerably easier to enact change from within rather than without, all the various "the EU is this and is doing that" arguments should have been reasons to stay rather than get out, so that we can control that and veto things we don't want. We've just voluntarily given up that power.
Plenty of people interpreted a remain vote as "do nothing," to maintain the status quo. That hurt us, because they were looking round going "this is all a bit shit" and wanted to try something - anything - different. With the media narrative telling people that everything wrong in their lives was all the fault of foreigners, in many cases a vote for leave was simply a vote for change.
Straight or crinkly, national borders aren't that important other than to the people who live close to them. It allows them to be "different" - e.g. The Debatable Lands, Franco/German, Austro/Italian, etc. Those people find more in common with their "cousins" just over the border than with their nation as a whole, because as inkster said "it's an ongoing process".
I think the EU is a part of process demonstrating the futility of an obsession with national borders.
He seems to see the European project as some kind of end game in politics
I most difinitely don't and you need to quote me rather than invent stuff. In fact you need to quote everbody because I'm not the only one you're putting words in the mouth of, Inkster.
All a product of the Enlightenment
Nope, Jepherson and his mates staked out USA on the basis of what they'd studies in Europe as part of the enlightenment. Middle East and African boundaries are the result of squabbling between the various colonial powers rather than any intellectual exercise.
Couger-
If reason had a map it would be the map of Africa, the map of Europe is a map of human Impulses and human histories, not a map created by Reason. Reason cuts things up into bite sized pieces, there is nothing reasonable about the map of Europe.
Educator suggests I work on making the gap between Language and reality invisibly small, that my message isn't clear. The only way I can think of doing that is to put a blindfold on.
Reason is an ideology as much as any other ideology, it can fly in the face of human nature and what it is to be human. To be reasonable is not to be ideological, reasonable entertains the notion of doubt, acknowledging that reason and reality (human nature and nature itself) are intertwined, co conspirators.
Back on edukators' theme of the gap between language and reality I'll return to the map of Africa. By and large, in Europe we find people speak Spanish in Spain, French in France, German in Germany etc etc. That sounds to me to be pretty reasonable, relatively organic, natural even. When I look at the map of Africa, the correlation between language and national borders seems somewhat unreasonable, whilst Africa has about 1500 spoken languages, there's about 15-20 major languages across a continent of 55 countries. As I've posited, I see the map of Africa as a map designed by the forces of reason, to me a reasonable map of that continent would correlate more closely to which language was spoken where. Such a map would close the gap between language and reality.
I guess I'm putting the Cult of Reason in the dock, not to be judged by 12 angry men, just one sceptical one.
The relative stability we find in Europe is actually a product of human behaviours that have existed throughout history as much as they are a product of reason.
No, it's largely as a result of the formation of the EU. If we'd followed the historical pattern we'd still be beating the shit out of each other. That's kind of the point.
Yet we expect the Africans to grow up and act more rationally.
Really? I don't. I wish we could help them solve their problems, many of which were created by Englishmen with rulers.
Similarly your point regarding Corbyn and his failure to get elected. I totally expected Labour to get creamed, as did a lot of the others who've posted on this thread, because Corbyn had already demonstrated he could fail against a pitiful opponent. No charisma, anyone who doesn't understand the value of that in politics is doomed to failure, and I think pretty much everyone posting on this thread recognises the failure of the remain campaign (if you can call it that) and the various reasons for it.
Your comments regarding the validity of the religious mindset versus the scientific approach I'm afraid I don't really know where to start with.
Most of your points have been covered in this thread at length. I'm not sure what's prompted you to chip in at this stage? Sadly it's now all moot. They won. I just wish they'd get over it.
There is no reason in the lines on the map in africa. Purely arbitrary as it is what suited colonialists. Tribes were split, obvious geographical features where ignored. It breaks your case not makes it
He also posits that religion can be seen as more rational than reason,
Science flies people to the moon, religion flies people into buildings.
You sound like Major Charles Emerson Winchester.
Reason is an ideology as much as any other ideology, it can fly in the face of human nature and what it is to be human. To be reasonable is not to be ideological, reasonable entertains the notion of doubt, acknowledging that reason and reality (human nature and nature itself) are intertwined, co conspirators.
Hence it was called the Enlightenment - murder and rape are a natural human condition as well. Doesn’t mean we should advocating against reason and suggesting we should pick up the nearest drums and start sacrificing slaves to the god of Ra.
I thought this thread couldn't get any worse.
. All imposed (designed) by European powers beholden to the age of reason
It was reason that eventually undermined racialism.
As others stated, Europeans were beholden to colonialism - and their arrogance was probably more derived from Christianity than lessons from the Enlightenment.
Slowoldman
I get what your saying, the EU being part of a process demonstrating the futility of an obsession with national borders.
Bit like the Soviet Union then. That worked out well didn't it.
The borders in those debatable lands you talk about came about through conflict and resolution. Borders are important to some people and not to others. The smaller a country the easier it is to manage, the larger the country the more there is the opportunity for discord, that can only be managed via more authoritarian means,- China, Soviet Union, modern day Russia as well when you look at the Caucasses. USA different, that's why it remains a confederation of partly autonomous states. Yugoslavia banished differences but needed an authoritarian state to manage it self, when it collapsed there was chaos for a few years then it settled down into individual states, it's all pretty random and unpredictable in the medium and long term.
I mentioned the belief of many that Europe was heading towards a super state, many on here said that's nonsense, propaganda from the right wing media etc. How does that sit with your perspective regarding the futility of Nation States?
For some people localism is important. That's why I called out the false equivalence some were making between local elections and EU elections. Localism isn't the same as Nationalism by the way, it's about accountability, feeling engaged, having some sort of agency etc. The re establishment of mayorships in the UK is an example of localism. The EU project (I know you all hate that phrase) runs counter to the idea of localism.
You have to love reason behind The Gambia’s borders. Go Team GB!
the correlation between language and national borders seems somewhat unreasonable
Around here every mountain valley had its own dialect in the 19th century and the main ones persist to this day. People speak French, Basque, Occitan and Spanish within 70km of where I live. The linguistic boundaries bear little relation to the onlyline on the map which is between France and Spain, and thatfollows the mountain high points rather than any enlightened imposed grid.
Raybanwomble-
You think colonialism no longer exists? I guarantee there are many Africans who would disagree with you there and they very much see the EU as a colonial power still
The EU project (I know you all hate that phrase) runs counter to the idea of localism.
I for one don't hate the term "EU project".
The project most certainly doesn't not exclude localism and provides funding to encourage it.
Linguistically, culturally, through protection of regional products, through investment in local patrimoine. The project set out to be a union and it's just that, a union not a super state.
Edukator-
I did say there are over 1500 African languages but maybe 15-20 major ones. (And numerous dialects beyond these)
Theres a far far correlation between language spoken and national borders in Europe than Africa.
I recognise you are the one here who most embraces the idea of the EU project.
You think colonialism no longer exists? I guarantee there are many Africans who would disagree with you there and they very much see the EU as a colonial power still
I don’t disagree with this but, but that has nothing to do with rationalism.
Eddiebaby-
Yep..... one big flood and your Waterworld .
