25 years ago that mission got side tracked into some other kind of neo liberal project.
Have you looked at the rest of the world? Just wondering why you might think this a purely European phenomenon. Also wondering whether you think Brexit will accelerate such change within the UK, and between the UK and other countries across the world, or somehow insulate the UK population against such change?
Danny h –
Are you posting from the pub mate? If so, make mine a double
Keep up the passive aggressiveness. Brilliant work.
Danny h –
Are you posting from the pub mate? If so, make mine a double.
No mate.
I don't tend to go for 'doubles' as I really don't like the hard stuff. Never have. Gin and tonic is about all I can enjoy, and then not more than one.
I do love a pint of decent bitter, though, how about you?
IMO the Europen model with its proportional representation is the nearest to perfect democratic model on the planet.
That's a joke right? A model that enshrines establishment power via technocratic bureaucracy and corporate lobbying is perfect? The main difference between the european model and the British/US FPTP models is that the the european model is slightly more sympathetic to the views of it's citizens whilst being more difficult to change. If the status quo works for you then great, if not - as in the case of the Greeks - you're f*****. If you define democracy as government by the people, for the people, then the models we have today barely deserve the name.
Keep up the passive aggressiveness. Brilliant work.
Ohhh, it's passive aggressive.....
And there was me thinking inkster was just being chatty.
Well, blow me down.
If the status quo works for you then great, if not – as in the case of the Greeks – you’re f*****
Ah, the old "Greece was ****ed by the EU" trope
Kelvin and kimbers-
Fair points,
FPTP vs PR, roll of the dice.
Windrush is an excellent example of your point. Nothing to do with Europe but an opportunity exploited by the Conservatives in the Brexit hubbub. Quite possibly the most shameful thing I've seen from any government in my lifetime. The absolute opposite of everything I consider to be British. I know someone who has spent the last 2 years in a holding / detention centre. Thankfully out now, thanks in part to the involvement of my local MP
And there was me thinking inkster was just being chatty
He tried it on the previous page suggesting Kimbers "keep being a dick" if he wants
Trolling 101
I do wonder what previously banned member he is🤔
as in the case of the Greeks
Why did they beg to be let in to the Euro then?
Edited, replied too quick, meaning could be misinterpreted.
He tried it on the previous page suggesting Kimbers “keep being a dick” if he wants
Trolling 101
I know. You can ping them a mile off. Sad isn't it?
Ah, the old “Greece was **** by the EU” trope
Largely the other way around. Greece made all sorts of promises then did bugger all to put it's own house in order re unpaid and uncollected taxes.
Still, evil old EU eh?
Danny h-
Depends mate,
A nice Belgian beer, a glass of nice French wine, bit of German Riesling, Spanish cava, some Italian Chianti, or a drop of Greek ouzo, I'm quite cosmopoltan me!
On every other supposed leaving the EU date we had wall to wall coverage. It’s 5 days to go and barely a peep. What’s going on?
I do however hold the EU responsible for indulging in a deluded pipe dream, detached from reality and beholden to ideology.
From where I'm sitting it's reality not a dream and as ideologies go the priciples are humanist and democratic. Pig in shit in Europe me: euro in my pocket, an MEP I voted for to represent me in the parliament, I have worked and lived in four members states, the ECJ to look after my rights, people to look after the safety of the food I eat and the water I drink (and swim in)... .
Fight the good fight remainers. Vive la résistance !
My main concern is that we don’t push the working class further to the right with sanctimony and insults.
The well-reasoned and balanced debate of 2016 worked a treat, right?
Chianti
I only just got back into a drop of red after a decade or so of not bothering.
Not chianti, alas, but Valpolicella. Now that I do like.
I know someone who has spent the last 2 years in a holding / detention centre.
That is truly awful. Hate that people can be treated that way. Still, we’ll be able to treat more people from more countries appallingly, so that’s one Brexit positive for some people (but don’t call those people names).
That’s a joke right?
He was referring to the voting system used, do you disagree it works in a way that is preferable to the elections to our national parliament (well, the bit of it that is elected at all)? For example… how well is your MP representing you and your priorities in our parliament?
You are talking about the balance between national governments, the council, the parliament, and how they interact… with each other and third parties… which is far form perfect… but when you look closer to home the same is true… is it not? Perhaps worse.
Boardinbob -
Did you actually read what I wrote and what kimbers wrote before?
I complemented him on a well thought out post, where he had finished up saying he would keep on being a dick by defacing 50p pieces if Brexiters continued to wind him up.
I merely said feel free to do this if he wanted and said I thought it was cathartic and a much better thing to do than merely shout at people. Sorry if you took it the wrong way on his behalf, my comment was made in jest and with a certain amount of empathy.
I've been sparring a bit with Danny h on this thread and he seems to be able to take it in good faith, I'll extend that good faith to you as well xxx
If you're wondering which (not what) previously banned member I am you're going to be wondering for a very long time, we might have even rejoined by the time you work it out. Refering to me as what member implies that I am a penis. I am not a penis, I am a dick sometimes, in the same way as kimbers professed to being. Don't forget, we're all dicks on here.
Genuine question. What makes you think I might be a previously banned member? Looking to broaden a conversation doesn't get you banned on here, at least not yet anyhow.
Your posting history says you're not a returning banned, Inkster, just an infrequent poster. It also confirms you're consistently anti-Brexit which is inconsistent with being a Brexit apologist.
What I have issue with is that your view of the EU mimicks the lies in the right-wing and gutter press. Try some alternative news sources.
Pondo-
If you want to discuss the well reasoned and balanced debate of 2016 look at my comments about Corbyn and the bus on the previous page. I suggested that his tepid but disengenous support for remain was as responsible for the toxicity surrounding the debate as anyone else.
The best most 'apologists' for Brexit can come up with is that large sections of our society were duped by tactics (which are obvious to anyone prepared or able to take a step back and take a look) into voting for something that is contra to their best interests.
It is possible to come up with all sorts of adjective for that, but they are all basically euphemisms for 'gullible' and/or 'stupid'. It can be used as an insult, yes, but it is also just inherent in Brexit.
The idea of creating some European super state made that fragile thing brittle.
Sure. But as ideas go, it's a fictional one.
I think that is the perception for a lot of people.
No arguments here, but I've said before that a big problem is people's 'perception' rather than any sort of reality.
That’s a joke right?
That comment surprises me, I rather thought you two would get on like besties.
Kelvin-
Windrush is more than awful, it's truly abhorrent. I also have European friends who have had to trawl through 17 years worth of paperwork to prove their right to be here.
As you suggest, some people will use brexit as an excuse to call others names but does it make it any better if we then call them names as well? In the short term it would probably make me feel better to do so, though I am aware that the worst they can do to me is call me a snowflake or remoaner. If I look to wind them up it's not me who is going to suffer any real consequences, it will be those they identify as 'other' who will be on the recieving end of their hatred, my friends and family for starters.
So I'm saying to all of you, think before you slag,
I suggested that his tepid but disengenous support for remain was as responsible for the toxicity surrounding the debate as anyone else.
I'm not sure as you can blame Corbyn for the "toxicity," brexit is inherently toxic. Blaming him for his lack of opposition exacerbating the problem though, absolutely.
Remain hasn't had a coherent voice / credible representation since 2016, the day after the referendum we were being told (democratically, obvs) to shut up and no-one of any clout has stood up to say otherwise.
Edukator-
Try some alternative news sources you say. How about coming on here to get bashed by people like you with your lazy insults.
Look at what you've just written, you say you can see that I'm an anti brexiter but because my views don't 'mimic' those of yourself and others like you who think I've been duped by the right wing gutter press.
How does that amount to anything more than a lazy insult?
I am capable of holding more than one thought in my head at the same time, my views on the EU have been what they are for a long time, long before I drunk the Murdoch cool aid. Didn't stop me from voting remain though because, as I said, I am capable of holding more than one thought in my head at the same time.
I'm actually a bit of a pretentious t**t, my thought is shaped more by looking at history and reading a bit of phillosopy. Check out Karl Popper, 'An open society and it's enemies', or a bit of John Gray (he wrote an interesting piece on why the left keeps losing in the New Statesman last week.) Or if you like, just stick to the echo chamber on your Facebook page where you can just unfriend anyone whose thoughts you don't agree with (or understand)
At least on here you can't just unfriend those with different views, though I feel that if you could you would unfriend me in a second.
I'm off now to have a w**k into a rolled up copy of the Daily Mail.
brexit is inherently toxic
Ain't that the truth. That is because no good can come of it for 99%+ of the population. Never could, never will.
no-one of any clout has stood up to say otherwise.
The fact that they'd immediately receive 100+ death threats will have had a part in that.
Has anyone done any survey on the number of direct threats made against individuals or their families by each 'side'?
I'm pretty sure we all know which 'side' would be more guilty.
I received a load of personal abuse and threats from one angry man. In the original exchange all I did was correct his understanding of the voting system used in the European elections. Not normally a topic that would cause the reaction I got.
"You little this, you little that, * you, I'm coming for you, you little *' etc.
Thing is, I'm above average height and looking at his profile pics he seemed a bit on the short side. Maybe that had something to do with it? I resisted the temptation to point this out, blocked the silly berk, and left him to shout at the sky. And he had 'won', remember.
I’m off now to have a w**k into a rolled up copy of the Daily Mail.
Better use for it than reading it.
I’m actually a bit of a pretentious t**t,
That bit I understand and agree with. 🙂 But no I won't be reading anything by the other "prententious t**ts" you quote any more than you'll start watching Euronews and reading the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung or Charlie Hébdo. I'm fond of reality based reasoning. Check out the last 1900 pages.
Look at what you’ve just written,
I don't need to I wrote it. The "lazy insult" was deliberately chosen to mimick what you've been doing over the last few pages to your adversaries and point out to you the way your views of the EU come across.
Back up your anti-EU rhetroic with something the EU has done that adversly affects you that is actually worse than what the UK government was doing before. Find me some ECJ rulings you disagree with. Some EU parliament voting decisions you find abhorent.
I'm really happy living in Europe and recognise that a lot of what I like is the direct result of the EU project. You slag it off, I'll defend it.
Cougar-
I'm not blaming Corbyn for his lack of opposition, quite the opposite(sic) in fact.
I'm asking you to imagine that if Corbyn, a lifelong eurosceptic had remained true to his convictions and supported brexit what could have happened? Maybe the debate would have been a little less racist and xenophobic, maybe Boris wouldn't have come out in favour of Brexit maybe the working class northerners wouldn't have deserted Labour. Lots of maybe I know and I'm not saying I know exactly what would have happened, I'm just positing a question, trying to think in a less binary way.
Corbyn showed weakness,sitting on the fence when the country needed leadership from him. Just imagine for one minute, brexit was a non party issue and if Cameron had led remain and Corbyn led brexit the debate would have surely been different and perhaps more informed. With the two party leaders adopting counter intuitive positions, Boris might have decided to keep his powder dry and sit it out, waiting to see what happened.
If you want to discuss the well reasoned and balanced debate of 2016 look at my comments about Corbyn and the bus on the previous page. I suggested that his tepid but disengenous support for remain was as responsible for the toxicity surrounding the debate as anyone else.
You did and it was as misguided as your call not to alienate the working class.
Danny h
True dat.
Very patronising and rather nasty and untrue attack on me Inkster. I did not say the working class were stupid. I said the brexiteers are. and they are.
I don't see much point in trying to answer hypothetical questions about a situation that never existed with personalities doing things they didn't do (and would never have done) and then rewriting history based on that fabrication, Inkster.
But that's what you are asking us (Cougar mainly) to do.
And then you want those of us against Brexit to roll over and contribute positively. We won't. Those of us in Europe want our governments (the people Britain will be negotiating with as of next week) to look after our interests.
Britain is about to become a commercial and political adversary rather than one of the gang. I want Macron and Van de Leyen to insist that Michel Barnier defend my interests.
inkster
Member (of some kind)
So I’m saying to all of you, think before you slag,
yeah thought about it and based on the commonly held belief that "berksiteers" are in fact not stupid the conclusion is..
Not to slag them off.
To make no attempt at consolation with them.
To laugh at any misfortunes and difficulties they will suffer as a result of their political "feelings"
maybe even to publicise their stuggles with losing a job and dealing with universal credit, providing a future with opportunity for their offspring etc. on social media...
to not offer assistance if I really needed to go and they were on fire.
and generally to make thier lives as miserable as possible with any dealings they may have with me.
whats good for the goose and all that...
Edukator-
I wouldn't dismiss any of the sources you suggest, I might even check out the Euronews channel. I might even have a peek at the Frankrter Allgermine. Charlie Hebdo isn't really my tasse de the though.
Do you regard Karl Popper and John Gray as pretentious t**ts simply because I am a pretentious t**t or are you familiar with their work? Would you dismiss anything I liked as being awful simply because I liked it? How would you cope if we both happened to like the same thing I wonder?
In an earlier post you referred to EU regulations regarding food and water standards. You'll get no argument from me there, I am as concerned as anyone regarding these type of issues, that's one of the main reasons I voted remain despite certain reservations.
It's not that I necessarily disagree with any particular EU regulations or ECJ rulings as regards them effecting me here in the UK, (though my partner who is from Africa would have a lot to say about the way in which the EU treats that continent)
My question would be why do we need an elected parliament to achieve any of this? Why couldn't it just be dealt with by civil servants appointed by the respective governments?
I just reject the idea of a democratically elected EU parliament that has been elected by a small minority. The politicians are invisible, how many people can name or recognise a single EU politician apart from Juncer and Barnier? I'm sure you can but then you've worked in 4 European countries and are a committed Europhile (as is your right)
Why couldn’t it just be dealt with by civil servants appointed by the respective governments?
Because that wouldn't be very democratic given the lack of proportional representation in many member states and the huge differences in populations represented.
If you want a European to listen to get an idea of where negotiations are likely to go I suggest starting with Andej Plenkovic. The current Croatian prime minister, Croatia has the presidence of the conseil de l'union European at present. He worked in Paris for 5 years, is close to Macron and has an excellent grasp of what Britain wants to grasp with Brexit.
5:24 on for perceptive comments on Brexit.
The politicians are invisible
Blame British media for that, not Europe.
Sorry TJ, Didn't mean to be nasty, sorry if you took it that way. Looking back at your post I see that you're caĺing all Brexiters stupid.
I think a lot of brexiters are stupid and a lot of remainers are stupid and doubtless a lot of you think I'm stupid as well.
Let me just say, I think Brexit is stupid as well, I just think it was inevitable. Terrible leadership from Cameron and Corbyn, taken advantage of by Boris and a bunch of b**tards.
If by my trying to explore some of the underlying issues that led to this you think I'm a brexit appologist (not sure if they were your words, but that's what plenty on there have accused me of being) then there's nowt I can do about that.
We all have different opinions with regards different voting systems. If by voicing my opinion that I think the EU parliament was a mistake, and something I cite as one of the fundamental reasons for the project falling apart you think I'm wrong then fair enough, its just my opinion. Call me wrong, call me a fool but please don't call me a brexit apologist.
Iffoverload -
There's nothing I can say to that.
I just reject the idea of a democratically elected EU parliament that has been elected by a small minority.
Do you also reject your local council elected on the same sized majority & turnout?
EU Is also more that just the parliament ; we also have a seat on the council of ministers- and rotating presidency of it, British commissioners ,british judges on the ECJ etc
You talk as if we aren't integral members of the EU and have no input on its direction or how it functions
The EU isn't something done to us, it's something we are part of & help steer (for a few more days at least)
I'm not saying you're wrong about chucking out abuse, you just seen to be lazily repeating brexiteer myths, not sure if you're playing devil's advocate or not tho!
I’m asking you to imagine that if Corbyn, a lifelong eurosceptic had remained true to his convictions and supported brexit
Corbyn is a lifelong Eurosceptic yes. That doesn't mean he's a brexit supporter, these are two wildly different standpoints. That conflict probably explains why he's had a fence post up his arse for the last four years.
maybe Boris wouldn’t have come out in favour of Brexit
You've not been paying attention. Boris will always come out in favour of whatever he believes will serve him most favourably. He doesn't give a shit about brexit outside of personal gain, the only thing Boris cares about is Boris.
My question would be why do we need an elected parliament to achieve any of this? Why couldn’t it just be dealt with by civil servants appointed by the respective governments?
If we do away with elections where does that government come from?
I think the EU parliament was a mistake, and something I cite as one of the fundamental reasons for the project falling apart
Whilst the former is an opinion you're more than entitled to, the latter is an untruth. It's not falling apart, at all.
In fact, if there's been one positive to be drawn from the entire brexit process, it's that it's killed "Frexit" etc and the potential rise of the continental far right stone dead. 27 other countries have looked at where we are currently and gone "**** that."
I cite as one of the fundamental reasons for the project falling apart
It isn't, it's getting bigger and stronger. I reckon Brexit has already strengthened the union. Even France's populist RN (FN rebadged) has dropped polices on Frexit and dropping the Euro as there is so much popular support for Europe. The irony is that Europeans are now seeing Brexit as an opportunity in the same way as a pub rejoices when the pub over the road fires its best bar staff, takes chips off the menu, stops selling real ale and starts charging £10 to use the toilets. If Brexit is an opportunity for Britain it's a much bigger opportunity for EU countries.
Cougar-
I think your right when you say brexit is all about feelings, that's why rational argument was never going to succeed.
My response to that is that given that it was all about feelings, why didn't the remain side wake up to this and campaign on a more persuasive message.
I work in the arts and it's an area almost completely dominated by the liberal left. It's a field that has become more concerned with instruction than seduction and I would apply the same thing to politics.
Art and music has always worked by seducing people, connecting with their inner emotions, presenting them with things they haven't thought of before and consequently stimulating them. Well they say art mirrors life and I'm suggesting (A bit like you when you mention the importance of feelings) that politics is no different. Remain and the left in general needs to learn how to seduce rather than instruct.
Oh, and thanks for not banning me, are members seriously suggesting I should be banned? I can't for the life of me see where I've said anything that deserves a ban? Like you I don't want this place to become an echo chamber, that's not the kind of place I want this to be.
I'm not going to run away just yet either, everyone talks about diversity these days and so they should but how about a little diversity of thought eh?
There's more to come from me as well, re the expansion of the EU into the former Eastern bloc and the Uk's role in that. Also the expansion in university intake and university fees and what that meant for the class balance in education and how thats fed into contemporary politics as well.
My response to that is that given that it was all about feelings, why didn’t the remain side wake up to this and campaign on a more persuasive message.
Science vs magic.
The scientists aren’t about to become magicians, just because the public lap it up. If they did, they’d just be shit magicians and called out as hypocrites and liars, and as a result would fail to win over the fans of magic anyway.
I’m not going to run away just yet either, everyone talks about diversity these days and so they should but how about a little diversity of thought eh?
You’re thinking up this stuff, not just repeating it?
I just reject the idea of a democratically elected EU parliament that has been elected by a small minority. The politicians are invisible, how many people can name or recognise a single EU politician apart from Juncer and Barnier?
IF EU citizens aren't engaged with EU politics then that is their fault. They have the option to take part in choosing their representation, they just waive it. That is not the fault of the EU, nor does it de-legitimise it.
