Democracy is not a one time event…
Unless it was a leave win in another Scottish independence referendum 😉
Once implemented and after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU.
But… as often repeated by many people sceptical about the EU but with a reasonable understanding of what leaving it entails… the cost of not being in the EU isn’t that great… if we weren’t already EU members we’d have spent decades developing other reasonable but perhaps not quite as efficient ways of working with the rest of Europe… it is the ballache of leaving that is a huge act of national self harm. We’re not going to pretend otherwise and cheer it on like mindless automatons, just because half the population think it’s a good idea. The “rejoining” argument is mute… it won’t be an option for the UK, and doing so would not reverse the sunk cost and damage of leaving anyway.
Democracy prevailed.
Yes it did.
No it didn't.
So, cost of leaving already more than the payments made for the whole of the time we were members?
I don't have the link to hand, but I read a report the other day suggesting this will be the case by the end of the year. And, y'know, we've not left yet.
Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.
I accept your viewpoint. Why don't you accept ours? Can't have it both ways.
Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.
Absolutely no-one is trying to "overturn" anything. This is what we call a straw man, where you make something up to attack in order to make us look bad. It won't wash, sorry.
No-one? I assume you mean since the election? Loads of people trying to overturn the EU referendum since it happened.
the cost of not being in the EU isn’t that great… if we weren’t already EU members we’d have spent decades developing other reasonable but perhaps not quite as efficient ways of working with the rest of Europe…
I can see what you're getting at, Kelvin, but by the early 70s the cost of not being in the EU was becoming so apparent that a Tory government wanted to join, and did. And if you check out comparative growth curves before and after joining it looks like joining was a good move.
Loads of people trying to overturn the EU referendum since it happened.
Then they're idiots.
it was an advisory referendum (I'm amazed no-one has mentioned this before) and there was a subsequent court case which concluded that May invoked A50 of her own volition independently of the referendum. If hypothetically we were to overturn the result, what would it change? Bog all, it was an opinion poll.
In any case, our esteemed colleague was referring to the recent election I thought?
I agree, but it hasn’t even been implemented. Once implemented and after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU
Damage has already been done, £170bn taken out of the economy so far, exclusions from scientific funding & clinical trials and plenty more
Perfectly reasonable to campaign to stop the madness, as well as it's perfectly reasonable to point out that it's still a hilariously daft thing to be doing
it looks like joining was a good move.
Oh, there have been, and still are, huge advantages to being an EU member… my point is that the cost of leaving is far more than just about losing those advantages… and can never be regained by rejoining later, even it that was offered. People are still balancing up being a member against not being a member… and ignoring the huge cost and damage of leaving… partly, I suppose, due to nonsense such as claiming Brexit will be “done” shortly, or that we can have a “clean” break. The task of leaving is itself an act of self harm that can not be truly undone… ever… yet is just shrugged of as “democratic”, as if that will neutralise the impact on the UK somehow.
'Member
Jeez. I can’t believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.
Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.'
Having a longish memory, and also being a bit* of a d1ck, I'll now remind you that you called for riots if Brexit wasn't delivered. What part of rioting does democracy fall under?
*A lot.
Democracy prevailed.
No it didn't. We don't have "democracy by referendum" we have a "parliamentary democracy". That's why there was a supreme court ruling regarding prorogation.
I can’t believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed.
Flippin eck. Democracy isn't a single system with one set of rules that you have to play by. It's not football.
*A* democracy is a government system that includes people voting on things. Most of them work differently.
Just because there was a referendum on something doesn't mean it was a perfect decision, and doesn't mean it was a good idea. Nor does it mean we have to stop pointing this out.
Cougar - can't really believe you're serious with your comment about an advisory referendum.
It's been written and talked about extensively; I can't be arsed to trawl through a squillion posts on here about it.
Cameron and/or May said that the result would be regarded as binding despite the referendum being advisory and that parliament would respect thew 'will of the people'.
Numpties both; devoid of any true conviction.
As for where we are now - Brexit is happening; the focus must be on making it as good as possible - that is, least harmful to GB's interests. That is where an effective opposition can make its mark - I'm not holding my breath.
That is where an effective opposition can make its mark
Not sure how any opposition could steer govt policy in the current situation...?
Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.
Those who don't understand how democracy works should be stripped of the vote.
You'd probably feel more at home in some South American tin pot dictatorship.
Off you go.
Cameron and/or May said that the result would be regarded as binding despite the referendum being advisory and that parliament would respect thew ‘will of the people’.
Politicians promise lots of things all the time, doesn't make it legally binding (more's the pity). Quite why this one detail is sacrosanct and the rest cheerfully ignored I have no idea. Six months ago Boris was building a bridge across to Ireland, how's that working out?
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Six months ago Boris was building a bridge across to Ireland, how’s that working out?
I think he built it over some deadly ditch at the end of October last year instead 🤔
Quite why this one detail is sacrosanct and the rest cheerfully ignored I have no idea.
Everyone's accepted that the result was always going to be actioned, and that it wasn't going to be revoked. So the legal status is unimportant.
"Yes your honour, I did murder the deceased, but in my defence he accepted I was going to do it."
Do I need to define "representative democracy" again?
Cougar – can’t really believe you’re serious with your comment about an advisory referendum.
It’s been written and talked about extensively;
I like to think Cougar had his tongue well and truly in his cheek.
Meanwhile, today's Brexit Bonus:
https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/13/man-gets-brexit-surprise-on-invoice-for-new-mercedes-benz-12038546
Meanwhile, today’s Brexit Bonus:
And will only be a problem if the car in question isn't going to be delivered until 2021 because our trading relationship remains the same until 31.12.20 at the earliest, what a crock of shite article
Yoou obviously haven't checked out the pound/euro rate today, Dickyboy. There are some decisions to be made by the EU between now and May on Brexit which could knock 15% off the pound.
Yoou obviously haven’t checked out the pound/euro rate today,
Guilty as charged m'lud 🙄 guess we should be getting forex early for any foreign holidays this year...
what a crock of shite article
Whilst the Metro has a notoriously low standard of journalism which it often fails to meet, it's hardly the article that's a "crock of shite" if they're simply factually reporting an event which actually happened. If you disagree with it then you should be directing your disdain towards Merc instead, nein?
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/13/brexit-irish-border-uk-northern-ireland
What's that you say? It's actually not that easy to just "get Brexit done"? Well I'm astonished...
The Irish border could yet snag Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal, with experts saying it will be impossible to deliver the computer systems for the special arrangements for Northern Ireland by the end of this year.
Hand up if this comes as news to anyone who has ever worked in IT.
I am just wondering how long the Boris illusion can last? I think 18 months full illusion, 12 months "we're fixing it" then 24 months of utter economic shite.
Jeez. I can’t believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.
Result accepted.
What that does not mean is that I prepared to sit back and toe the line whilst politicians and their dodgy backers effectively weaponise stupidity as a positive political force.
I will still be reminding the people that voted for this shitshow every time something comes to light. And I don’t give a shit if that makes them more bitter.
Dickheads on social media are always saying “why don’t you just get behind it?” But what exactly is it they want me to do? I will keep on working hard to provide for my family and pay a handsome amount of tax for the privilege (assuming Brexit doesn’t lose me my job). What else? Sing ‘Two World Wars and One World Cup Doo Dah Doo Dah’ loudly at least once a day?
What they really mean is ‘stop pointing out our stupidity’.
No way.
result NOT accepted here. It was a result of propaganda and gerrymandering. For a democratic vote to be valid the electorate must be informed. It wasn't. Therefore the result is invalid
also my country voted very strongly against brexit.
Accept the result?, aye that'll be ****ing right, like I've said before ill continue to call out those that voted for brexit as deluded ****ing idiots (my actual words are quite a bit stronger)
+1 " all of the above" 🙁
I like this forum. Simple, no avatars and guff like that. But...
Democracy prevailed.
Yes it did.
That doesn’t mean I have to stop pointing out that the decision the ‘majority’ made is really bad, and hold them to account for the impact of that ongoing.
You made the bed. I’m going to make you lie in it and tell you the discomfort you will now have.
Edit: I also will hold you to account on the ‘plan’ and decisions now being made as we move forward
...never have I wanted a ‘Like’ button more.
Also...
flanagaj
I agree, but it hasn’t even been implemented. Once implemented and after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU.
I just don’t believe you. And think leaving to make the point then grovelling to get back in *might* leave us worse off. So please don’t try to spin it as a selling point.
Currently I’m in full “I’m alright, Jack” mode. Job (hopefully) secure, decent union so income shouldn’t actually go down*. Mortgage fixed for 10 years. I’ll be fine. Call me an interested spectator.
My GE vote was an irrelevance given my constituency, so I certainly it don’t have to “get behind” anything. Or “get” anything done.
* in absolute terms - hence the long mortgage fix. More than used to real-terms decline, from a previous career. Just let’s hope folk don’t enjoy going overseas and expecting to afford stuff.
I just don’t believe you.
Seems plausible if taken literally perhaps. "after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU." No issues with having a campaign, with the assumption that it'll fail.
How many years is "a few" I wonder?
Again Cougar, you’re better at this than me!
My initial response was based on “no issue with rejoining”. Which I don’t believe. But that’s not what was said, and I failed to notice...
What was actually said was “no issue with a campaign”. Which is a different thing. Especially with the “a few” year qualifier. I’m not sit out to be a politician or policy maker.
I’ll stick to life-critical safely decisions instead.
If only I could stop clicking on the damn thread...
I now have a full time role pointing at the shite and going "told you so"
I may have to work overtime.....
I was shot down in the past on this thread for moving from caring socialist to not giving a shit but hey ho hard rain will fall.
NSFW - but funny
If only I could stop clicking on the damn thread…
Well, quite.
It's not democracy when the winning side has got there by telling whopping lies.
The Swiss have the answer to that, invalidate the result.
To be fair, the UK government accepted in court that had ours been a binding referendum it would be declared invalid 🤦
Anyway, the job I was waiting on a start date for has been pulled pending a decision on how Brexit pans out. An extra £10k a year, my own feelings of self worth and the chance for my wife to drop to four days a week to save her own sanity all down the pan. Bastard Brexit
To be fair, the UK government accepted in court that had ours been a binding referendum it would be declared invalid
That's oft cited but it's not true.
The court ruled that an advisory referendum couldn't be held to the same standards as a legally binding one, but they didn't speculate as to what might have happened if it had been mandatory.
It’s not democracy when the winning side has got there by telling whopping lies.
Sadly, it is. That's most of the problem with it.
Just heard Little Liam Fox doing some groundwork to instill the sense that it will be down to civil service intransigence when 1st Feb doesn't reveal a crush of nations banging down the door to do awesomely favourable trade deals.
Instead, of course, it will bring Uncle Don, tub of lube in hand and a facial expression that says "NOW, let's get down to some real business".
But it will all be the fault of a remainer fifth column in the civil service, of course.
Boris wants us to "Bung a Bob for a big Ben bong" on brexit night.. 🙄
