But don’t the UK have to have worker’s rights in line with EU rules in order to play in the EU markets?
Yes but we are competing with them to sell stuff to the rest of the world.
Such as things other EU countries do better than the UK and at lower costs due to the weaker pound.
What does the UK produce other than marmite that the rest of the world needs as opposed to wants. It seems to me that much of UK goods are high end things that nobody needs.
Seems to be a massive paradox/schroedingers trade deal! In order to close a free trade deal with the EU we will have to maintain all current levels of standards and stay closely aligned in future. To get a free trade deal with the US we will have to agree to lower standards and distance ourselves from EU rules and regs. Not sure how we are going to square that circle.
We haven't agreed any trade deal based on workers rights yet? The more we diverge the further apart we will be, the more we align the simpler things get but if we agree to legally align before we start then the negotiation doesn't become easier. CETA workers rights are a bit vague I believe so it's not all black and white.
Nobody has voted or suggested the burning of workers rights (unless you believe Bonners and tj which I struggle to imagine)
Nobody has voted or suggested the burning of workers rights
... they've just made it possible, is all. Nothing to worry about, I'm sure they all have our best interests at heart. Project fear.
Nobody has voted or suggested the burning of workers rights
Yes they have - all of them. Bonfire of red tape? Not going to remain in alignment with the EU?
I suggest you need to actually read up on it a bit and open your eyes. Its been the main aim right from the beggining. many many public statements from Johnson. Rees Mogg, etc over many years. Just one example here
Exsee
Its about as clear a signal that they intend to do away with Erasmus as is possible. No we haven't pulled out yet. Will we still be in it next year? No. completely impossible to remain in it given Johnsons positions and the fact no budget is allocated for it.
Have a read of the Erasmus site - it makes it very clear that given Johnsons positions then remaining in Erasmus is impossible
Workers rights
No the vote on Erasmus wasn't a clear signal of anything much at all, nothings changed so still hope just as before. Not great but that's the way it is.
Did you read your article from the London economic? The only quote in there is the actual government policy.
many many public statements from Johnson
Since when do Johnson's statements indicate what he wants to do? All they indicate is what he wants us to hear. He'll say whatever wins him support. Time will tell, but I don't think you can take ANYTHING he says at face value.
What does the UK produce other than marmite that the rest of the world needs as opposed to wants. It seems to me that much of UK goods are high end things that nobody needs.
All sorts of things. Take cars for example. Sure, selling to the EU is going to be more expensive because of tariffs, and buying our parts will be too. But if our labour costs come down, then that could offset the cost of tariffs on parts and we could then sell cars more cheaply to the rest of the world than a factory in the EU.
What Boris Johnson? he'd never lie
Cars are a bad example, Molgrips, the UK will always be high cost compared with eastern Europe; countries that weren't in the EU when the Japanesse chose the UK to gain a foothold in EU. The Japanese have already made their position on a hard Brexit clear and beyond the investments they've already made for current platforms they won't be throwing any more money at the UK.
But if our labour costs come down, then that could offset the cost of tariffs on parts and we could then sell cars more cheaply to the rest of the world than a factory in the EU.
Labour costs will come down through automation (loss of jobs) or lower wages as far as I can see. none of them great for the workers.
But if our labour costs come down, then that could offset the cost of tariffs on parts and we could then sell cars more cheaply to the rest of the world than a factory in the EU.
You are lyingblohard and I'd like my £5 paid in €5 because once the UK's workforce are asked to work longer for less, and whole tranches of workers have been laid off you will indeed have a cheap workforce and one back on strike for equal wages and working time practices like we currently enjoy being in the EU.
But carry on ruining UK manufacturing.
Jeeze, there are some proper weirdos in the forum.
Seems to be a massive paradox/schroedingers trade deal! In order to close a free trade deal with the EU we will have to maintain all current levels of standards and stay closely aligned in future. To get a free trade deal with the US we will have to agree to lower standards and distance ourselves from EU rules and regs. Not sure how we are going to square that circle.
Mmmm well they were banging on about high-tech solutions for borders perhaps they’ve cracked it with an alternative reality generator 🙂
Your right and the amazing speed that they intended to do this whilst deviating from everything with the fantasy of becoming Singapore on Thames.
Denying intelligent young people the opportunity to study abroad and experience foreign cultures in the flesh doesn't seem at odds with a lot of the motivations behind Brexit anyway.
Resentment and mistrust of intelligence? Check.
Resentment of youth? Check.
Fear of anything 'foreign'? Check.
Dovetails quite nicely and will go down well with the luddite thickos.
You are lyingblohard and I’d like my £5 paid in €5 because once the UK’s workforce are asked to work longer for less, and whole tranches of workers have been laid off you will indeed have a cheap workforce and one back on strike for equal wages and working time practices like we currently enjoy being in the EU.
But carry on ruining UK manufacturing.
Jeeze, there are some proper weirdos in the forum.
Mate, pay attention. I'm not saying I want any of that to happen or that it will be a good thing. Someone asked why the EU would care about what we do to our workforce, I gave an example why. Ok so the car example is bad, but point stands - if our labour costs go down then we could in theory take market share from them exporting to RoW but to be clear - I do not want this to happen. I would like the UK to be high value high skill manufacturing based not a bargain basement. I am also an arch remainer.
Point of note, the UK's biggest export industry is services, not manufacturing.
Seems to be a massive paradox/schroedingers trade deal! In order to close a free trade deal with the EU we will have to maintain all current levels of standards and stay closely aligned in future. To get a free trade deal with the US we will have to agree to lower standards and distance ourselves from EU rules and regs. Not sure how we are going to square that circle.
Which is why it is a stupid bloody idea.
But this was never about sense or fairness or addressing wrongs that ought to be righted.
It was about people's worst instincts being pandered to by a bunch of people who stand to make a fortune one way or another and to hell with the consequences.
The greatest heist in history.
Mate, pay attention
I did, thats why I quoted your post.
Nice to see you've clarified your own position though, should have done that much sooner in the thread... save all the angst and missives thrown your way.
I thought I'd made it abundantly clear!
As I said before my position now is tending towards European Federalism. **** nationalism.
To be fair, at almost two thousand pages on this thread now, Mol's position has been pretty clear to anyone who's read more than two of them.
molgrips
Subscriber
Take cars for example. Sure, selling to the EU is going to be more expensive because of tariffs, and buying our parts will be too. But if our labour costs come down, then that could offset the cost of tariffs on parts and we could then sell cars more cheaply to the rest of the world than a factory in the EU.
Nah. The impact of labour costs on final item costs is so low that you could do it all with slave labour and it still wouldn't compensate for even a fairly minor tariff.
I really don't know why we are still arguing about this. The arseholes have won this round. Lets wait for the UK to decline into a **** hole and then we can start rebuilding a sensible nation. TBH as gutted and disappointed as I am, I think this needed to happen. Lets hope that it only takes 2-5 years to **** it up and then next parliament we elect a party that supports federalism, PR and political responsibility punishable by long prison sentences.
Hence my policy is now: lets support the Tory ****s and help them usher in their shite asap so we can get on with the ruining of the country post haste The sooner we can start a sensible rebuild rapidly after.
Still one of the trickiest areas… and not one I’d trust any prominent pro-Brexit politician to lead the negotiations on…
(Most practical approach is to just say yes to the EU proposals before June, sign early, and let civil servants and businesses crack on with implementation before year end… not sure we have anyone “practical” in place though.)
The impact of labour costs on final item costs is so low that you could do it all with slave labour and it still wouldn’t compensate for even a fairly minor tariff.
You think? I thought it was the main reason manufacturing was so expensive in the developed world?
I really don’t know why we are still arguing about this. The arseholes have won this round. Lets wait for the UK to decline into a **** hole and then we can start rebuilding a sensible nation.
I’m sceptical that a sensible nation will be allowed to exist.
I have a feeling that Bojo and Dom are planning on building their own government Cambridge Analytical and we’re going to have a much more proactive propaganda machine than we’re used to.
After all getting away owning the years of austerity and selling take back control and get Brexit done and generally running everything into the ground to be rewarded with total control.
2020’s gonna be 1994 🙂
84?
Subscriber
The impact of labour costs on final item costs is so low that you could do it all with slave labour and it still wouldn’t compensate for even a fairly minor tariff.You think? I thought it was the main reason manufacturing was so expensive in the developed world?
I had a googy on this as I think cars are ‘funny’ items as they rely on a serious amount of automation so for your labour costs you get a lot of work done.
What percentage of the cost of a car is Labor?
10-15% of a vehicle's cost is labor. Another 20-30% of the cost is materials. 50-60% of a vehicle's cost is "overhead," defined as the plant that builds the car, the army of engineers employed by each manufacturer, the corporate structures (HR, accounting, etc.), advertising and marketing costs, etc.
I think the giggle is that lower labour costs mean nothing if after Brexit Independence Day, automakers fall foul of the 'rules of origin' which stipulate a high proportion of a car's content must be made locally to avoid benefiting another country or region.
So unless we do some magic with Freeport there could be interesting times ahead
84?
Might be 🙂
How many years of ‘payments’ to the EU does that equate to?
I haven’t done the maths, but that area under the line looks like much less than $170bill to me. So, cost of leaving already more than the payments made for the whole of the time we were members?
Well current net payment to EU is around £10-11billion per annum, so that would suggest 17-18 years. However, since payments have steadily increased that £170billion apparently equates to contributions over the past 47 years.
Jeez. I can't believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.
Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.
Don’t think anyone’s arguing about it tbh
So what’s the alternative viewpoint then ?
Democracy prevailed.
Yes it did.
That doesn't mean I have to stop pointing out that the decision the 'majority' made is really bad, and hold them to account for the impact of that ongoing.
You made the bed. I'm going to make you lie in it and tell you the discomfort you will now have.
Edit: I also will hold you to account on the 'plan' and decisions now being made as we move forward.
flanagaj
Jeez. I can’t believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.
That's why we have democracy.
So we don't have to accept the alternative viewpoint and can keep campaigning even when defeated in a vote.
Or even change our minds once the vote is implemented.
Democracy is not a one time event...
I agree, but it hasn't even been implemented. Once implemented and after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU.
So, even though all the evidence suggests that its a terrible idea, and will harm people, everyone should just stop whingeing on until the damage is done and people have lost livelihoods?
I suppose we're not allowed to say "I told you so" at that point, either?
* edited, as a bit too emotive, even though, Y'know...
Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.
How about those that over-turned the 1970's vote, should we remove the vote from them too? Democracy is too nuanced for absolutes, if it becomes absolute is ceases to be democracy.
I have no intention of trying to overturn any vote but also no intention of 'coming together' and 'making it work'.
Leave have been telling me for years my opinion holds no water so what I intend to do is sit back and say 'We told you so' quite a lot along with the occasional shake of the head when Johnson stiffs yet another area that 'offered him their support'. As has been said the next phase is to make sure the loud bullies own their shite storm because as sure as night follows day it's coming.
Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.
A vital part of democracy is public debate. That's what this is. It doesn't work otherwise, so I suggest you learn to deal with it, maybe join in instead of trying to shut it down.
