At the moment I think UKIP may have a credibility problem among anyone not in their core support.
Wishful thinking. the Leave vote in the North of England was very strong, ie in support of the central UKIP pollicy. Aso going forward UKIP have stronger views on immigration than the official Leave campaign and as such I think they may well see a surge in support. This is combined with a disintegration of Labour who have lost touch with these voters
Labour Party imploding over the Referendum
I don't see how that is as relevant to us as the party in power that's created havoc.
And what are the Tories doing Jambalaya? After all they are the ones supposed to govern the country and they seem to have disappeared!
Wishful thinking. the Leave vote in the North of England was very strong, ie in support of the central UKIP pollicy. Aso going forward UKIP have stronger views on immigration than the official Leave campaign
Just the folks asking about the new hospital and the 350 million a week etc. Yes being strong on immigration works to a point but it's up to the rest of the world to point out their fears are being exploited by racists.
Labour Party imploding over the Referendum
As opposed to some Tories who have taken it a step further and opened a black hole. If there was ever a time for pot and kettle gags it now. Neither side are in any kind of shape
And would also pave the way for UKIP to ascend.
In the short term. In the longer term of course the issues that drive people to look for answers in racism would have to be addressed.
Bloody hell, IDS is brilliantly at cycling backwards - sorry pedalling.
Marr is on form this morning - ripping IDS, Khan and Sturgeon equally,
Politics is a blood mess - good job we are not in a serious situation
IDS - Im old fashioned enough (despite chewing gum) to believe you have to honour a manifesto pledge.....errr, but I didn't commit to spending £350m on the NHS.
There you go public, that's how much respect I have for you.....
BoardinBob, I had to stop reading that, grim.
Inspiring 🙁
some of that fb stuff is quite incredible 🙁
@ DrJ - terrible, worrying but more sadly; not surprising.
I'm still in shock about the whole thing. Clearly some Leave voters made a considered, evidence-based voting decision but it's fairly obvious the biggest chunk is white, poor non-metropolitan people voting against the current political system and immigrants. To be fair, these are the people who've had few favours from successive governments over the last 30 years, especially in the North of England, and see politics being about wringing them dry to make other people (usually in London) lots of money.
Sadly these are the people who will be hit hardest as fuel and other cost of living expenses rise. I can absorb £250/month if I had to - many other families can't.
One thing did cheer me up and that was yesterday's beer festival, which had people from all walks of life/socio-economic statuses (for want of a better description). Baking hot day with cheap beer flowing and it was a recipe for arguments but I was heartened to find everyone just talking to one another about it - both sides clearly worried about the outcome and discussing ways to move forward. Maybe, hopefully, we can do that as a country, otherwise the alternative is pretty grim.
it was a recipe for arguments but I was heartened to find everyone just talking to one another about it - both sides clearly worried about the outcome and discussing ways to move forward. Maybe, hopefully, we can do that as a country, otherwise the alternative is pretty grim.
Unlikely. We can't even do it on this thread.
Unlikely. We can't even do it on this thread.
We can't have civil conversation about while size here.
You've dashed my optimism in 5 minutes - damn you, you 'get the 26"ers out' hate mob!
I can't help thinking we've just shat on our closest trading partners from a great height. We're not just burning bridges, were excavating the remaining channels to all new depths
We've shat on big business trading partners, but from what I gather from the news, the Brexit news has gone down quite well in other European countries because they want to be next (especially France) to leave.
Big business has undoubtedly become too powerful, way beyond the control of governments, but I'm not sure if this will help or hinder in bringing them to account.
Is that the "Worrying Signs" album DrJ?
https://m.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/albums/10101369198638985/
Friend on Facebook just posted that on her timeline. She is white English but has a Thai-born daughter with a Thai surname, which she is now in the process of changing for fear of this kind of thing. 🙁
I see the EDL and other far-right groups were marching through Newcastle yesterday calling for immediate repatriations now that we are out of the EU. 🙁
I'm proud to say that the counter-demonstrations were reportedly larger but never a great thing to see so close to home.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/far-right-demonstrators-take-streets-8281867
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/watch-police-circle-angry-protesters-11525050
. The result is what it is, how we as individuals deal with it is up to us..
Unless you're a government minister, constitutional lawyer or civil servant trained in trade negotiating then you as an individual can do 10% of bugger all about it.
I'm not sure why anti-globalism types were so keen to vote leave. Had an FB convo with someone who is vehemently anti-globalism (to the point of going along with all the conspiracy theories that don't include Lizards) and even he admitted we'd be more likely to be part of TTIP as a stand-alone nation desperate for the US' patronage than part of the EU.
Absolutely sickening stuff Dr J, but well done to those demonstrating against the EDL.
see the EDL and other far-right groups were marching through Newcastle yesterday
This is a huge problem. Groups that previously would have been considered marginal and a minority will be bolstered by the vote. Confident now that their despicable views are shared by the majority. They now feel they have a proper mandate to push their hate agenda.
Truly, truly saddened by all if this
Very interesting article on why Brussels will shit on us from a great height and from a pro Leave paper to boot:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/the-eu-will-treat-britain-like-greece/
@danny the EU is in a right mess as its second largest contributer has given it the two fingered salute. Merkel is already quashing the rhetoric from Junker etc.
Yet again I will say that the issue of immigration has not been well dealt with throughout the UK and indeed Europe. When you don't deal with a small issue it has a habbit of becoming a large problem. As posted above by others anti-immigrant and anti-EU feelings are stronger in Europe than in the UK
Just to be clear whoever made those signs whould be sent to prison
When you don't deal with a small issue it has a habbit of becoming a large problem. As posted above by others anti-immigrant and anti-EU feelings are stronger in Europe than in the UK
Yes we have allowed bigots and racists to hijack the agenda on immigration, confuse it with asylum and terrorism. Push people into corners and turn them against each other. In fact we have allowed fear to overcome truth.
When you don't deal with a small issue it has a habbit of becoming a large problem.
Quite:
[img] https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRgnsHKgrCF5Bo9DNjhjxgaY4373y8lKkMIRrag-bp9cWn7hSCCRQ [/img]
It didn't start with a manifesto to gas 6m Jews, of course. It started with selfish, populist, right wing plausible nutters appealing to the worst of base instincts. Sounding familiar yet?
I am hearing the reaction in Australia is pretty positive to Brexit as they see it opening new business opportunities
over the moon Jamby over the moon
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-26/banks-fearful-of-global-fallout-post-brexit/7545100
What pulse is your finger on?
BTW do you want to reconsider your racism point or are you just letting that one go like a fart in a lift
I am hearing the reaction in Australia is pretty positive to Brexit as they see it opening new business opportunities
I see your (lack of) knowledge knows no bounds.
The only real positives seen are by some in the republican campaign. Ironic that using it to aid the republican campaign in Australia would actually have an effect on democracy: it would remove an unelected head of state. Something Vote Leave seemed curiously ambivalent about in their misguided quest for improved representation of the British people
@zokes I could not agree more which is why I have been so vocal on here about addressing the issue of immigration right from when I joined the website in 2011. There is a very good reason that freedom of movemnet does not exist as part of any other trade agreement, its deeply flawed. Between a group of 9 countries which where comparable in terms of eonomic properity it was made to work. To have expanded the EU to 28 countries it has grown to be a material problem which s actually more severe outside of the UK.
@zokes "knowledge" yawn. Am hearing directly from friends and ex colleagues who are Aussie citizens living there plus a comment my wife made of reports being picked up in the French press. Some of STW would be well served to listen more carefully to what I have to say and come up with some positive counter arguments, I don't care whether you make them here but what's important (for those concerned) is that if they want their point of view to prevail they are going to have to start winning some elections
not to such an extent but moving towards it
http://dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/chafta/fact-sheets/Pages/fact-sheet-movement-of-natural-persons.aspx
Anyway the problem is a large number of people completely disagree with you on freedom of movement. That and the evidence...
@zokes "knowledge" yawn. Am hearing directly from friends and ex colleagues who are Aussie citizens living there plus a comment my wife made of reports being picked up in the French press.
reuters called...
"knowledge" yawn
Yes, that does rather seem to be your problem. Facts appear to disinterest you, and most of those who voted leave.
Personally I think the Leave win would have been far larger without the 2 day registration extension (2 million extra I heard although its believed many didn't actually bother to vote) and also the appalling murder of Jo Cox
On Scotland I think it was a tactical mistake not to be open about the euro. There will not be a refendum unless the SNP is confident it can win. Sturgeon is ONLY asking for legislation to setup the framework, she wants to use the EU as the excuse for that and then wait. If the UK's exit turns out to start looking quite good she'll do an about face on recommending an exit to remain in the EU but keep the referendum in reserve. Win win for the SNP. Its all about indepedence and they'll blow any way have to to pusue that (eg support for Royal Family)
Facts appear to disinterest you, and most of those who voted leave.
You win today's head in the sand award, which is quite an achievement I have to say as the competiton was fearce.
also from Jambys source
My mates brothers dads cousins next door neighbours uncles best mate knows a bloke in spain whose best mates distant cousins aunties hairdressers brother is a taxi driver and he said that he heard MessI ask for a lift to the airport and he had a City guide to Manchester. Expect more of the same tomorrow.....
You win today's head in the sand award, which is quite an achievement I have to say as the competiton was fearce.
Generous, but there's no way anyone else on this forum, past or present, could relieve you of that.
Now grow up and tell us what this excellent plan you have is that will:
1) Cost us less
2) Regain our "sovereignty"
3) Reduce immigration
4) Improve productivity
5) Lift living standards
6) Increase trade
Those are the end goals, how are we going to get there? You can only ignore these questions for so long. These things are after all what the public were led to believe they'd get if we leave the EU.
I can do
1 & 3 (2 is pointless)
1, 2 & 4
4 & 6
4, 5 & 6 with a good wind
I will do 2 while wearing union jack underpants holding a bulldog under each arm and farting in the general direction of France.
I will do 2 while wearing union jack underpants holding a bulldog under my arm and farting in the general direction of France.
Even that sounds like a more concrete plan than the current vacuum.
come on zokes pull your socks up and tell us which ones you would do! Talk about not being in this together...
Boris even claimed the EU stops us exporting haggis to America.[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-haggis-ruth-davidson-bbc-debate_uk_5769a36be4b098ec71a01f66 ]Boris you're a tumshie[/url] The USA banned import of products containing offal in 1971
come on zokes pull your socks up and tell us which ones you would do! Talk about not being in this together...
I wouldn't want to spoil Jamby's thunder, he seems to have it all sussed, just waiting for him to divulge his masterplan.
[img] 
[/img]
I'm waiting but I have a warm feeling
jambalaya
Yet again I will say that the issue of immigration has not been well dealt with throughout the UK and indeed Europe. When you don't deal with a small issue it has a habbit of becoming a large problem.
What the right wing press have been good at, is dehumanising people from Eastern Europe. Making them seem like faceless automatons or worse, whose only capable emotion is 'desparation' is a tactic that has sadly worked.
The reports of a small town of criminals many from Poland, Bulgaria and Hungary were worrying. Not a mention that the second highest quantity of foreign nationals in UK prisons are from Ireland. It does not progress the isolationist cause to talk of Irish paedophiles and murderers. It is much better to demonise those of Eastern Europe.
The UK was full in the 40's and 50's before people arrived in numbers from India and ****stan. It was full in the 60's before people came here from The Carribean, it was full in early 00's before people came here from Poland, it was full 5 years ago before people came here from Bulgaria, and it is now full as people wish to come here from Syria.
Looking into bare statistics during the referendum I have been taken by how much UK migration is non EU. MORE THAN 50%. A points based 'Australian' system could have dealt with this half if people wanted it. People wishing to copy the Australian system and have a level playing field for all immigrants should remember that Australia has a special immigration relationship with New Zealand.
It would have been nice if remain had managed to say that the people coming here from Eastern Europe marry people born in the UK, have children born in the UK, spend their hard earned wages in the same shops, cafes, restaurants and cinemas as those born in the UK. Take their kids to the same soft play centres and visitor attractions.
If my sons school class is full and the new Bulgarian kid turns up for their first day, I would feel more proud to live in a country where the kids were told to budge up a bit to make room, rather than send the child packing back to where they belong with their 'desperate' parents.
