I'm with Kelvin - it's not LD job to get Labour elected. But they will get pulled for orange unicorns (LD majority) and inconsistencies with their no post election deal with Corbyn stance.
It is the Labour party's job to argue these points ( and that looks like the line of attack from McDonnell etc this am) and convince the voters
There is a real risk that Tories will benefit from all this, but that is politics
IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE LIBDEMS TO MAKE LABOUR ELECTABLE.
No, but if pretty much your only policy is "stop Brexit" then to be believable you need to act in the ways in which make that most likely to happen.
You can read Liberal Democrat policies here:
https://www.libdems.org.uk/manifesto
Why are people insisting they only have a Brexit policy and nothing else? Just lying or being lazy as it fits thier agenda? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
…you need to act in the ways in which make that most likely to happen.
Go on… explain your thinking…
Labour would still be against another referendum (even in theory) if the LibDems hadn’t received so much support in the elections earlier this year. Without pressure from the LibDems they won’t come in behind a second referendum in practise either. If the LibDems had just supported Labour for the last few years, how would that have helped?
IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE LIBDEMS TO MAKE LABOUR ELECTABLE.
Completely agree. But if they are honest about wanting to stop brexit then it's a tactical no-brainer to work with the only party providing an opportunity to do that. Are they doing that? No, the exact opposite in fact, which shows that they are more interested in their own political advantage at the cost of stopping brexit.
What are Labour proposing that the LibDems should support right now?
Talks to agree a timetable to put Johnson’s Brexit legislation through parliament?
A referendum, but only after an election which shouldn’t be called?
Voters need a clear and simple message.
Tories have theirs. SNP and LD too.
Labour have a flowchart.
And now the EU have said the WA won't be renegociated Labour new deal is not happening.
Backing an election on the 9th ensures no deal is of the table and Boris has failed his biggest promise.
Voters need a clear and simple message.
I wish remainers would make their mind up. One the one hand the referendum was bad and the result should be set aside because the subject was so complex you can't boil it down to a yes/no decision and voters couldn't understand it, but on the other the labour party should boil it down to a yes/no answer so that voters know what they're voting for. Which is it?
And now the EU have said the WA won’t be renegociated
They said that before repeatedly. What did they do?
The clear and simple message will come… once all other options have been killed…
• Labour Alternative Brexit
(killed by the passing of the years & EU exasperation)
• Post General Election Referendum called by a Labour government
(killed by Johnson successfully uniting Conservative Brexit Party voters by proposing a harder Brexit than May)
• Cross Party Government without Election
(killed by Johnson getting a new WA/deal that wins back votes of many anti No Deal rebel MPs)
That doesn’t leave much on the flowchart. What’s Labour’s next move/message?
feeling queazy
Kelvin. In terms of outcomes ( that move us on) I see only two
(1) GE, Labour led Govt (with SNP and maybe LD support if minority). 2nd ref, prob May/Johnson deal v remain.
(2) GE - Tory majority - Johnson deal is voted through
The third option is a hung Parly without enough seats for Labour, SNP, LD etc to form Govt. In which case rinse and repeat
…you need to act in the ways in which make that most likely to happen.
Go on… explain your thinking…
Why not agree to VONC with Corbyn as temp PM? That would get rid of Johnson and allow for a second referendum Which Labour have said they'd support if attached to Bojo deal
By not working with Labour and setting themselves up with the pretty extreme "Revoke completely" stance it makes it look like they are just saying whatever will give them the most support in a pre-Brexit election, but then not be in any position to actually deliver on those promises.
Maybe @olddog. But if so, why are LibDems and SNP being slammed for supporting an early general election if it stops the Brexit legislation completing before an election?
It’s all very confusing.
I’ve no idea who is making “the right” move in all of this at all.
@kiksy… what would the programme be for that government? Would it be Referendum and then General Election, both in first half of 2020? I think it should be, but it needs to be nailed down. It’s probably too late now anyway… Johnson’s deal wins back lots of Tory “rebels” who now are even less likely to support making Corbyn PM.
And now the EU have said the WA won’t be renegociated
Of course it will and as will any further extension requests get given. This could go on for many years yet, it is what the EU are best at.
It* won’t go past June 2020, for lots of reasons ignored by people not watching what the EU has to get on with next year.
[* A50 extension]
And if she did, Hopkins would go UP in my estimation.
We, European, have had enough.
The mood has changed.
Boris is supposed to be lying dead in a ditch.
Leaked memos are showing his true ambitions.
Boris and his government are on the ropes but still ahead in the polls.
It is really time for Labour to wake up and finish them off.
It is really time for Labour to wake up and finish them off.
You're right. It's time they got out their magic wand and waved it around and said the magic words. It's amazing they've waited this long. If they'd done so a year ago they'd be in power now and brexit would have been cancelled. The fact that they haven't done this only goes to prove they're rabid brexiteers with a secret agenda to get it through.
Or perhaps this is much more complex than many remainers (and brexiteers to be fair) refuse to accept?
I wish remainers would make their mind up.
My is made up. Revoke, or if there is insufficient support for that action then 2nd ref. Whatever it takes basically.
The fact that they haven’t done this only goes to prove they’re rabid brexiteers with a secret agenda to get it through.
It's not a secret agenda though is it? Corbyn is a leaver as it suits his particular socialist ideals to break with the EU and its rules. Strange how far left and far right seem to have similar aims. Something to do with authoritarianism I suppose.
What should Labour do
Well it's a nuanced situation because their support is mixed, so the only rational option is to hedge their bets, which they did. Sadly rationality doesn't win elections as we've seen. Remainers and leavers both being irrational here btw.
SNP and LD too.
Actually the LD position isnt clear.
Beyond their yellow unicorn of winning and then revoking their approach on a second referendum is even less clear than Labours. Nothing clear about what they will be offering.
Do the LibDems want to stop Brexit?
Now… do Labour?
There’s your clarity.
(I’m still voting Labour, but to pretend the LibDem position isn’t “clear”, when they are calling for Brexit to be stopped, as an attempt to distract from Labour’s lack of a clear intention, is just deliberate dissonance.)
LDs message is clear, they are against Brexit
This GE is last ditch effort before Johnson puts his bill up again & lexiteers vote thru his brexit (& they will despite DExEU leak showing they plan to move away from EU rights & protections)
What should Labour do
Labour leadership have been fence sitting for 3 years.... enough to push out 2nd Ref or remainers.
Why would anyone trust Corbyn now?
What should Labour do
If it were up to me at this point in time I'd be revisiting the Kyle-Wilson amendment with a 2nd ref before a new election. They could then go into that election on the platform they'd achieved their policy aims of preventing no deal and holding a 2nd vote to resolve brexit.
LDs message is clear, they are against Brexit
Okay how?
Leaving aside their yellow unicorn what exactly is their policy.
What is going to be on the ballot paper?
We know Labours position which is to provide a viable choice but what is the libdems.
How will they negotiate what will go on it.
Details are pretty important remember just how incompetent they were at the AV referendum.
If it were up to me at this point in time I’d be revisiting the Kyle-Wilson amendment with a 2nd ref before a new election. They could then go into that election on the platform they’d achieved their policy aims of preventing no deal and holding a 2nd vote to resolve brexit.
I agree that is what they should do. I even think that is what they will (try to) do very soon. You may say I’m a dreamer…
Not seen this posted here yet.
Tony Blair Labour Brexit position
ignore the messenger, listen to the message...
So why do the lib dems do everything in their power to prevent a labour govt?
Their doing everything they can to increase their vote share. Going into an election on the premise of supporting labour in a coalition just makes voters think, why vote LD I might as well just vote labour.
They know the same as us that they'll never form a majority goverment but they have to at least state that as an aim.
Okay how?
• Revoke A50
or
• Back Remain 100% in a referendum
Do you have a third way?
Lib Dem policy looks good to me. Revoke, and with them being neck and neck with Labour and the Leave vote being split between Con/BP they've got a chance of winning outright.
If they don't win, the overwhelming likelihood is they'll be doing the most remainy thing they can do since they've already kissed goodbye to the leave vote. They can hardly kiss goodbye to the other half of the population.
The most remain-y thing in some kind of coalition will most likely be a 2nd Ref with all its flaws.
Leave vote is split. Remain vote goes to Libdems.
LDs will have done extremely well if they get 30+ seats
So why do the lib dems do everything in their power to prevent a labour govt?
I can't imagine the LDs GAF about Labour or that Labour would GAF about the Libdems. [1] The whole point of Momentum Labour is that they don't want centrist votes any more, they're after full on lefties. The two parties are fishing in different pools. If you were trying to win potential LD voters over you wouldn't have Corbyn/Abbot/MacDonnel on your front bench.
[1] Although I accept they do, for reasons that are beyond me.
LDs will have done extremely well if they get 30+ seats
So where will the Remain [1] vote be going?
[1] ~50pc of the electorate.
they’ve got a chance of winning outright.
Yes, of course they have. Please can we have no more talk about red unicorns? If this is a common view among remainers then they've already conceded defeat and there's no reason to delay any further as it's only delaying the inevitable.
Have you noted the pattern: it’s always the Labour leader the Lib Dems can never work with (Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband, now Jeremy Corbyn) but never the Tory leader?
They won't work with either this time. If the LDs end up being in any kind of deal/pact with Lab/Con after the election the first condition will be Corbyn/Boris has to go.
Lots of people who are pro-remain really don't give as much of a **** as people on this thread seem to think. At a GE, I expect more Remainers will vote for the same party they always vote for than will vote tactically. Of course, there is some correlation between how you voted on Brexit and your political persuasion. Hence, votes will mainly be split between Labour and Lib Dem.
If this is a common view among remainers then they’ve already conceded defeat and there’s no reason to delay any further as it’s only delaying the inevitable.
If you're going to say it's wrong to vote for a party with 20 or under % in the opinion polls because they can't win then that imposes a moral obligation on all of us to vote for Boris.
In this coming election there are no safe seats. Brexit changed everything. Remainers will be voting LD.
The LibDems will probably be the fourth largest party after the election, behind the SNP (even if they match Labour’s vote share, which I doubt they will), because …FPTP. I’m hoping that can take our 15 or more Tory MPs. But they absolutely should be making it clear what their programme for government would be if they did win though… no one should be expected to vote in a general election for a party with no programme for government.
Lots of people who are pro-remain really don’t give as much of a **** as people on this thread seem to think.
I hope you're wrong, but I do fear you may be right. Sharing memes on FB is easy, voting requires a modicum of effort.
no one should be expected to vote in a general election for a party with no programme for government.
In normal times, no.
With Brexit on the Agenda? I expect leavers to be voting BP or Tory without much thought for domestic policy and reaminers to be voting LD without much thought for domestic policy. It's only five years, Brexit is much longer term.
If you look at the latest opinion polls versus the actual %split of votes at the 2015 GE, what's really changed?
Con have picked up some of the UKIP vote (that hasn't transferred directly to the Brexit Party) taking them from 37 to 40%. Lib Dems have picked up some of the Labour voters who I guess do GAF about Brexit, but that's only taken them from 8 to 15%, so they're still a comfortable third.
Does anyone have a link to how the polls are translating into parliamentary constituencies?
