finishthat
Regarding MP`s and taring with the same brush , many are just like you – the know full well that there are bad/mad/nutters in their own party , they are doing their best to mitigate that and to keep things working , seeing everything in black and white good/bad and being entrenched dogmatic and closing your mind is not how things get done anywhere.
Based on a sample of 4 mp`s that I have met and one who I got to know very well the stereo types being thrown around are very much like the ones being used about the people who vote for them, they do not help and devalue all of us.
Much better than what I was going to say...
I personally have never voted Tory and voted mostly labour and LibDem a couple of times depending where i lived at the time.
However when you see blinkered hate it really makes you question the entire process.
The EU do not want to be the ones who force a no deal departure, so the question is not whether they offer an extension but how long an extension they will offer. Macron is allegedly favouring the offer of a few weeks, he's not proposing to refuse an extension at all. If they offer us a month, 6 weeks or 3 months I expect it'll be passed by parliament.
The only issue is that the EU are waiting to see what happens in Westminster, an parliament is waiting to see what the EU offer so we need one of them to break that standoff - that's the only route to no deal that I can see at the moment.
So, if this impasse in parliament continues, then it's no deal/crash out time next week then?
Dom and Dommer and the ERG nut-jobs get their dream result by default?
Can the border stay open in NI under WTO rules?
Surely if that international border is left open we have to leave all borders open?
No deal, no open border, no?
Bohnson & his pet psycho don't really care about sectarian violence kicking off again, or probably if it goes eventually to Unified Ireland, with a side order of Scotland indyref and back to EU. As long as the fat blond chump is in #10, anything goes.
Johnson's die in a ditch moment coming back to haunt him?
https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/1187644975045107714?s=19
& We haven't even not left on the 31st yet
If leavers are swinging back to farages position, that's bad news for Tories in GE
Having a border must mean no deals with the US.
So who does that leave us with?
Well if there's rolling back of the Good Friday Agreement leading to any border infrastructure between NI and the Republic then there's no possibility of a trade deal between the UK and the USA. Congress has stated that explicitly.
zippykona
Can the border stay open in NI under WTO rules?
Surely if that international border is left open we have to leave all borders open?
I am no authority but I'd agree.... just one of 5000 other we won't even look at the consequences though - Obviously noone has deigned to even promise this???
So, on one hand, we have Boris who has negotiated this marvellous deal, but seemingly doesn't want it passed by Parliament under any circumstances than a rush-job with no scrutiny.
No-one seems to be questioning the fact that he can stake so much political capital on renegotiating, have 'some' measure of success in that, and immediately throw that aside in favour of a GE simply because of an arbitrary deadline of October 31.
TBH, opposition should just see whatever extension is offered, VONC Boris, get this fabled 'unity gvt' in place and actively push through an amended version of this deal either making it softer or contingent on a ref, or both.
The dream of revocation is pretty much dead, unless no extension is offered, which would look like political meddling by the EU, which they have claimed not to want to do.
Corbyn did a reasonable job getting a Commons majority assembled before, he needs to do it again quickly, tempting various Tory wets across with a promise of a softer Brexit.
Then we have an election in April with Boris not even able to claim that he delivered Brexit.
"Well if there’s rolling back of the Good Friday Agreement leading to any border infrastructure between NI and the Republic then there’s no possibility of a trade deal between the UK and the USA. Congress has stated that explicitly."
Well that would be plus point - atrade deal with trump would certainly not be in the UK's best interests!
Well that would be plus point – atrade deal with trump would certainly not be in the UK’s best interests!
Well quite, trump is the ultimate deal maker, the genius of deals, defining the Art Of The Deal!
Right?
The dream of revocation is pretty much dead
It's never been anything more than a pipe dream. 2nd ref is all we can hope for. That is the only way to remain.
TBH, opposition should just see whatever extension is offered, VONC Boris, get this fabled ‘unity gvt’ in place and actively push through an amended version of this deal either making it softer or contingent on a ref, or both.
This. Not gonna happen though while the lib dems and tory 'remainers' (who keep voting to leave) continue to play games for their own political benefit.
Of course, no game playing for their own political benefit going on in Labour, is there? Actually, perhaps there isn’t, and they are just being outplayed by everyone else. Either way, it’s all very depressing.
Well they've agreed a delay - but how long remains to be seen.
Personally I would've kicked us out. I guess they see the change of feeling in the country but ironically don't wish to interfere with our internal politics.
Personally I would’ve kicked us out. I guess they see the change of feeling in the country but ironically don’t wish to interfere with our internal politics.
That would be a shortsighted move I think, as an institution the EU wants to keep it's members and the longer this drags on and on the less likely any other government across Europe will succumb to any future pressure from it's own population to hold a similar referendum. A couple of years ago one would hear talk of sections of other countries electorates being unhappy with EU membership. There is none of that now.
Hope they go for 2 years.
I had a sudden revelation a couple of days ago, and I'm cross that I didn't see it earlier.
Boris has been keen not to rule out 'no deal' as it weakens his bargaining position. And I thought, "well, the EU won't care, they probably assume that we won't be daft enough to actually do it and if we do then it'll cripple us a lot more than the EU27."
But it's not about that at all, is it. Removing no deal weakens his bargaining power internally. If parliament is presented with Boris' offer with the alternative - rejecting it - meaning we're going to crash out then a lot of politicians will potentially be terrified enough to just hold their nose and vote for it.
Hope they go for 2 years.
Best way to deal with it.
Tell the UK it's a 2-yr extension during which all normal EU membership rules, responsibilities and benefits continue as normal.
It whips the rug out from under the feet of the Government, puts the EU very firmly in the driving seat and brings an end to Boris' relentless "end of October" rhetoric.
Hope they go for 2 years.
Only options being discussed are 15 days and three months.
What the ____?!?
Duff survey questions - click bait headline - only idiots have fallen for it
But it’s not about that at all, is it. Removing no deal weakens his bargaining power internally.
That’s all it has ever been about. Under May as well as Johnson. Apart from the few “total deregulation screw manufacturing, farming and non-financial services” ERG type MPs… the rest of parliament is always being told “this deal is the only way to avoid no deal”… but it has never been true.
Boris has been keen not to rule out ‘no deal’ as it weakens his bargaining position
Of course. It's been his only bargaining power really.
only idiots have fallen for it
Whatever you say oh superior one. The results of the other questions, as regards economic sacrifices etc, seem to be very much inline with other similar surveys.
How about Boris stops shaking the Magic Brexit Money Tree on a cult that blatently makes the country worse off, revokes A50 and then offers £5k to every UK adult citizen that states their allegiance to Remain?
What a load of nonsense.
I’ll bite… no one is claiming that any significant portion of the population want violence, or think it will happen, or actively seek it… so that unherd piece sets up a series of strawmen to knock down.
The survey (and similar surveys) just show the price that many are willing to put up with, if need be, to get the ends they want… not that people want that price to be paid, or think that it will be paid.
Unherd’s target audience is soft right leaning idiots looking for justification for their own woolly thinking.
no one is claiming that any significant portion of the population want violence, or think it will happen, or actively seek it… so that unherd piece sets up a series of strawmen to knock down.
So what point were you trying to get across by posting "What the ______?" an article headlined
Most voters think risk of violence against MPs is 'price worth paying' over Brexit
There really is no sanity left on this thread.
Because, it isn’t a price worth paying, and thought more people would agree with that. I thought a dead MP would make people more cautious.
Removing no deal weakens his bargaining power internally. If parliament is presented with Boris’ offer with the alternative – rejecting it – meaning we’re going to crash out then a lot of politicians will potentially be terrified enough to just hold their nose and vote for it.
The EU are probably playing for remain via a 2nd ref - it'll make them look good and boost both our economies.
The best way to do this is to let the process run long enough to demonstrate that a 2nd ref is the only option; and as more problems come out of the woodwork to let remain sentiment build with the public.
So you think it is better to Brexit because Farage has been milkshaked
I had a sudden revelation a couple of days ago, and I’m cross that I didn’t see it earlier.
Boris has been keen not to rule out ‘no deal’ as it weakens his bargaining position. And I thought, “well, the EU won’t care, they probably assume that we won’t be daft enough to actually do it and if we do then it’ll cripple us a lot more than the EU27.”
But it’s not about that at all, is it. Removing no deal weakens his bargaining power internally. If parliament is presented with Boris’ offer with the alternative – rejecting it – meaning we’re going to crash out then a lot of politicians will potentially be terrified enough to just hold their nose and vote for it.
We never had any external bargaining position ...
Internal ... I don't think Boris cared until he was given his explicit instructions more recently.
I'm guessing not long before the "dead in a ditch" line.
the explicit instructions seem to be no-deal or no tax avoidance
We never had any external bargaining position …
No, the nice Mr Gove said we held all the cards!
Just a shame his card pack neglected all the high ranking cards in favour of a busted flush and a couple of jokers...
A majority of U.K. lawmakers opposed a no-deal Brexit, likely rendering the threat a bluff, for now. But European leaders such as Ms. Merkel thought such a scenario could become a bigger risk later, if Mr. Johnson won a national election with the parliamentary majority that he lacks now.
Thus, “Boris’s threat of a no-deal worked,” a senior EU official said Thursday.
Ms. Merkel soon overruled Brussels’ insistence that reopening negotiations was impossible. In her pragmatic view, Germany and Europe need the U.K. as an ally after Brexit, including on foreign and security policy. A train-wreck Brexit could generate deep and lasting acrimony that would weigh further on the unity of the Western world, already tested by the EU’s fractious relations with President Trump.
No, the nice Mr Gove said we held all the cards!
Just a shame his card pack neglected all the high ranking cards in favour of a busted flush and a couple of jokers…
Wasn't that "the day after the referendum we will hold all the cards" perhaps he meant for 24 hours only ... he wouldn't be lying would he and that just leaves stupid?
Agreed removing No Deal upsets the ERG & theyve been in the driving seat for some time
Yes EU reopened talks but Johnson gave up some hefty concessions to Ireland (completely betrayed DUP) to get it reopened
meanwhile
It seems if Parliament (Labour) dont agree an election in the next 11 days
it will be February before we do get one
https://twitter.com/alanjrenwick/status/1187633546107740161
as for 'we hold all the cards'
this tweet nailed that bit of Gove stupidity....
https://twitter.com/JohnnyPixels/status/779231997080309760
it will be February before we do get one
Not sure that follows Parliament is unlikely to go into recess until the school holidays so plenty of time to vote for an election in January. But this is the correct analysis which is why the SNP saying they wanted a VONC so they could have an earlier election was so funny.
So, when’s the referendum? I’m still thinking we leave in May, with a WA, after a vote of some kind.
Or after two, or even three votes.
kelvin
Subscriber
So, when’s the referendum? I’m still thinking we leave in May, with a WA, after a vote of some kind.
We're not leaving and never were.
JP
