Anyway… where the ____ are Labour this week?
https://twitter.com/spittingcat/status/1187364483649490945?s=21
Devestation of the 80's brought upon us by the devastation of the 70's.
Anyway… where the ____ are Labour this week?
You may have missed it but they scored a big victory against the govt on Monday by preventing them from railroading through the brexit bill. Nowt much else has happened since then as everyone's waiting for Merkel to persuade Macron to climb down from his high horse.
If an extension is granted, it will either be kicked down the road again or Boris will go for an election which Corbyn may or may not support. If it's rejected then all hell will break loose and we can expect confidence votes, the govt falling and all sorts of other mayhem.
Devestation of the 80’s brought upon us by the devastation of the 70’s.
Secure jobs, workers rights, free education, generous pensions and benefits, a functioning NHS, and affordable housing. The horror!
same as with the banking crisis
Which, IIRC, the country is now either at net zero or in credit for, for them there loans what propped up the banks, i.e. no mugs were required to support that. Just saying, like.
Ah... thats refreshing to know. Good job it was a case of just bunging the banks billions of quid and everything just immediately went back to how it was before, eh?
I seem to have a vague recollection of my business going bust after our three biggest clients folded, one after the other, owing us shedloads of money, as the economy completely stopped functioning, literally overnight.
Then the resulting suicidal depression trying to cope with unemployment, having lost pretty much everything but the clothes I was stood up in. And then there was this ten years of austerity where the budgets of the councils in the areas I live were slashed by 50%...
Did none of that happen? I must have dreamt it then...
Well... if they payed it all back over the next ten years and there were no long term implications... Jobs a good 'un.
Can't wait to do it all again, post-Brexit.
Disaster capitalism isn't so bad after all...
Ah… thats refreshing to know.
It's true. The memory of 40% of my work colleagues being made redundant and zero pay rises for the next 5 years was just a figment of my imagination. Similarly I think Mrs Daz hallucinated having her public sector salary cut by 30% because the govt gave hundreds of billions to the banks and couldn't afford to pay for public services.
The company I was working for having to waste 2 years culling half its workforce, as clients either went to the wall or had to cut all but day to day spending, was all a dream as well.
I remember all the “well, if they can’t survive a period like this, the company must have been rubbish anyway”, or “they wouldn’t have lost their job if they worked harder”, followed by “why should we be paying for these people to get benefits”… bullshit talk… and I fully expect these narratives to be in full flow post Brexit once again…
… ”It wasn’t the fault of Brexit, the company shouldn’t have had such tight cashflow/margins and the staff should have worked harder and for longer and for less pay” … get ready for it …
as the economy completely stopped functioning
I guess that would be the preceeding financial crisis and subsequent depression, not the loan itself.
The memory of 40% of my work colleagues being made redundant and zero pay rises for the next 5 years was just a figment of my imagination
Austerity was a policy choice (as I think you have pointed out many times on this forum) and was not the loan itself.
Let's not forget planning for no deal has cost £6.2 billion so far this year.
That's another 2 years on your retirement age.
dazh
Subscriber
Why ?
Because he’s a tory, and an old school one at that, which means his single motivation is protecting the power and wealth of those who currently hold it.
This sort of thinking is very Socialist Worker circa 1982, and I don't think it's very helpful.
I'll precede the following by saying that I have never voted Conservative and on a general basis do not agree with the bulk of their ideology. However, the notion that every Tory MP is part of some sort of national conspiracy to subjugate the proletariat is utterly moronic. Presumably, you've been reading too much Das Kapital with an uncritical eye.
JP
Austerity was a policy choice
It was. However I seem to remember the justification for this was the ballooning national debt and deficit, which if I remember right the tories said was the fault of labour overspending, and not the hundreds of billions dished out to the banks and the recession caused by their friends in the city. I don't want to rerun old arguments, and it's off topic in any case, but that justification was utter bollocks, and a massive reminder that the tories will do what they have always done, which is protect the people at the top, whilst screwing everyone else. Brexit won't be any different whether you're Ken Clarke or IDS.
And on the subject of Ken Clarke, to go back on topic, lets not forget that this is the man who Jo Swinson had up on a pedestal as the best man to stop brexit. 3 weeks later he voted for Boris's deal without even a hint of protest.
which if I remember right the tories said was the fault of labour overspending
It would have been of supreme surprise if they hadn't blamed the opposition.
Jo Swinson had up on a pedestal as the best man to stop brexit
No, he was one of the names suggested to lead an alternative government that could get the support of enough Tory MPs… the purpose of which was to replace Johnson and his government, stop a no deal exit this month, and get an extension to allow a democratic event such as a general election. Any government that was to replace Johnson with the help of current MPs had to carry with it people who think we should Leave, but not in the way Johnson was prepared to Leave at the time (ie no deal). Since then, Johnson has out played all the opposition parties by getting a deal that many of those Tory MPs against no deal can (foolishly in my opinion) get behind.
the notion that every Tory MP is part of some sort of national conspiracy to subjugate the proletariat
Nope, it's not a conspiracy, it's just what they do. Call it a natural predisposition to being c****. To quote Michael Foot (which clearly makes me a socialist worker*), "if you ask me about those insoluble economic problems that may arise if the top is deprived of their initiative, I would answer 'To hell with them'. The top is greedy and mean and will always find a way to take care of themselves. They always do".
*for the record, I'm no lover of socialist workers either. Can't be doing with their authoritarian bolshevik vanguard of the workers bollox.
Election it is then. Assuming Merkel does her stuff I can't see labour turning it down again.
Bitch, bitch, bitch…
Look, there is probably an election on the way… to stop Johnson we need people who normally vote Conservative to vote tactically… we need people who normally vote LibDem to vote tactically… we need people who normally vote Labour to vote tactically… stop with the boring Tribal generalisations for a while, please.
I’d rather the next step towards “settling” this Brexit mess was a referendum… followed by an election to choose who runs the UK… but it’s looking more unlikely every day.
So the election will deliver us Hard Brexit or something else… and we’ll need as many MPs against Hard Brexit as possible… so tactical voting it is. We need fewer Hard Brexit Conservative (and Labour MPs).
I’m voting Labour to try and get rid of our local hard right MP.
So the election is Hard Brexit or something else…
Err, we may well be out by then if the brexit bill is passed before parliament is dissolved.
Err, we may well be out by then if the brexit bill is passed before parliament is dissolved.
Will, if enough Labour MPs are willing to do that, it’s going to get messy for the rest of the Party, isn’t it.
Realistically, the bill can only complete in time with the help of the leader of the opposition, and I don’t expect he will help Johnson out in that way, why would it be in his interest as regards preparing for an election?
He's stated before, has he not, get past the no deal threat, then GE.
it’s going to get messy for the rest of the Party, isn’t it.
We don't know. The jury is still out on whether brexit being sorted before an election will be good or bad for labour. There are arguments on both sides. If there is to be a push to pass the bill before the election then I would expect labour to try to insert a customs union and workers protections into it. If they succeed they will be able to go into an election saying they achieved the fabled 'red unicorn brexit'.
However, the notion that every Tory MP is part of some sort of national conspiracy to subjugate the proletariat is utterly moronic.
Imagine voting to take money off disabled people. I feel sick. Check the names and check which party they are in.
list of people who voted to cut diability benefits
What was that about having the same vote over and over until you get the result you want?
Oh, so when you say “passed” @dazh, you mean complete transformed beyond what Johnson and his MPs will accept. Not going to happen. The government is not going to take us out with the all UK Customs Union back in place in the Agreement, not just as a backstop, but as its stated aim. Not. A. Chance.
Not. A. Chance.
Well lets hope so...
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1187399919604289538?s=20
That assumes an election with us still in the EU, does it not? Labour will not gift Johnson the success of having got us out of the EU just before a General Election.
Well, if they do, they are politically naive beyond belief.
Anyway, what are you saying…
1) the bill is passed in current form with Labour voting for it ?
2) the bill is passed after being amended to have Customs Union as stated destination, and Conservatives voting for it ?
We will still be in the EU when the general election hits. I can’t see it being any other way. Unless we have a referendum first, which now looks as likely as… [metaphors and similes fail me].
That assumes an election with us still in the EU, does it not?
I would say so yes.
Anyway, what are you saying…
It could go either way. There are some in labour who think brexit being done will enable them to turn the election into an anti-austerity election which will benefit them, and others who think brexit not being done will give them an advantage as the brexit party will take votes off the tories. Who knows what will happen? I don't, but my own opinion would be that it's better to go into an election with it not being done so they can call out Johnson for being the snake-oil salesman he is, and campaign on the platform of being the only party offering a 2nd vote. The last thing they should do is allow Johnson to say the words 'I got it done'.
The last thing they should do is allow Johnson to say the words ‘I got it done’.
Agreed. It would be game over.
[mind you, it probably is anyway]
There's a new thread for election speculation and whataboutery 🙂
When I think of the Tory’s who are driving this whole project, I think of him. A man utterly and completely devoid of the remotest shread of compassion, empathy or humanity.
IDS is just a nob....
JRM ... probably clinically a psychopath...
Bojo ... self obsessed his only ideology is BoJo...
Patel ... scary
Loads of others, like their labour counterparts are doing what was voted for... even if they know its crap ... because in a no-win situation they are taking the one that they can just say "I'm just carrying out the wishes of my constituents...
Clarke was just a part of an organisation (one that for him is work)... many people get dragged into stuff. Unlike many Labour MP's though he actually voted for what he thought was best
This is an interesting one. Do we gravitate towards people of similar political persuasions or is it that our position in society (work, leisure interests, etc.) mean we tend to rub shoulders with those of a similar view anyway?
Personally, I can’t be totally sure but I think I know 2 tories and 2 maybe 3 brexiteers.
Most of the people I know I assume are Tory's I'm just assuming. I could be way off... it's like (to use more famous people) if I bumped into Richard Branson I might just assume "prob votes Tory" but obviously I'd have been wrong. Weirdly though I know quite a few Brexiters.... and there is no guess work involved.
However ... if I take the bunch of presumed Tory's I'd guess I can think of quite a few descent humans.
The government is not going to take us out with the all UK Customs Union back in place in the Agreement, not just as a backstop, but as its stated aim. Not. A. Chance.
And yet this is the very line I have now heard trotted out twice from Labour MPs who have ‘northern leave constituencies’ (translation: had a complacent, paternalistic, outdated view of their ‘salt of the earth honest working man’ constituents that led to them being caught on the hop and are now desperately trying to appear just racist enough to keep their majorities).
There was the MP for South Shields and Lisa Nandy who have both engaged in Cummings-esque levels of cynicism by claiming they only voted for the bill because they don’t like it and want to amend it to include staying in the customs union. As though the Customs Union is a mere detail that little scamp Boris is just holding out on for a prank.
They know full well what game they are playing, they have **** all chance of getting such a fundamental change out of BloHard, especially now they have emboldened him.
Cynical douchebags.
if I take the bunch of presumed Tory’s I’d guess I can think of quite a few descent humans.
Then they're honestly voting for the wrong party, or they're just raging hypocrites. Although TBH I'm not really talking about people who vote tory, but the fully signed up prosetylisers, mouthpieces, politicians, activists and others who see it as their mission to keep a tory govt in power.
I can’t see Labour backing a general election.
What will they back?
Told to abstain apparently.
Does this mean it'll pass?
Labour back an election?
Of course they won’t
Selling Corbyn to the electorate is like selling buggery to Mormons.
Any election is just a case of when, not if, grandad gets to shuffle off to the allotment
Regarding MP`s and taring with the same brush , many are just like you - the know full well that there are bad/mad/nutters in their own party , they are doing their best to mitigate that and to keep things working , seeing everything in black and white good/bad and being entrenched dogmatic and closing your mind is not how things get done anywhere.
Based on a sample of 4 mp`s that I have met and one who I got to know very well the stereo types being thrown around are very much like the ones being used about the people who vote for them, they do not help and devalue all of us.
Does this mean it’ll pass?
Unlikely because it needs 2/3 majority.
SNP (blah blah blah) 1979 (blah, blah, blah) Thatcher (blah, blah, blah).
Unlikely because it needs 2/3 majority
2/3rds of all MPs or 2/3rds of the MPs that bother to vote?
If Labour abstain it'll be a cake walk for the tories.
Two thirds of the total number of MPs have to vote for it. Abstention is the same as voting against, TBH.
So now we know what Cummings meant when he said the french would reject an extension. Their strategy all along has been to piss them off so they won’t grant it. We’re back in no deal territory. Next week is going to be mental if Macron can’t be persuaded to climb down.
Looks like things are, yet again, getting even more mental
EU set to put Brexit delay on hold after Johnson's ultimatum
So no election, no extension?
The pressure is all on Grandad now then. Good job he copes with it so well
Dianne Abbot was as clear as mud this morning (Quelle surprise!) on Radio 4. She said that Labour party wanted a general election and would vote for one. She was then informed that the labour party whips had told labour MP's to abstain on any vote. Her reply "well... I can't speak for what the whips are saying". Of course not Dianne. Why on earth, as a member of the shadow cabinet, would you know what party policy presently is on such a major issue? That would be mental!
No wonder Johnson wants an election. The labour party is a total ****ing shambles!
Sajiv Javid this morning in a response to taking no-deal off the table: "While the bill is being debated then no-deal is off the table". So basically do what we want then pursue no-deal.
Their strategy all along has been to piss them off so they won’t grant it.
No surprise, surely that was mooted on here a while ago?
It's just more of the same utterly disgusting brinkmanship gambling. All much in the style of the John Nash game theory driven type politics of the Cuban missile crisis.
Which, if I'm not mistaken, is one of psycho Dom's favourite theories.
