We have Chewkw if he's what he claims to be.
The UK (but largely England* based on my observations) are incredibly bad at immigration in terms of multi-culturalism
UK isn't great at it but nowhere really is. Some of that is the fault of government but a bigger reason is that people choose to go to places where they feel safe and know the people they are living with have the same culture, race, religion etc,.
People from the UK do this as much as others, look at Spain and see where all the expats live. Are they living in villages full of Spanish natives, are they all now speaking fluent Spanish, are they integrated in any way at all or do they still go to the pubs with union jacks on and eat proper British food
koldrun
@stevextc, your Doctor friend is against immigration and you’ve not really touched on exactly why.
That needs a lot more explanation!
He is not against immigration he is against the way it is done.
I think what riles him is he moved away from a segregated society... and this is what he had to put up with as a child in India. Indeed my understanding was that he wouldn't have been able to marry his wife at that time in India... (in practical terms)
Squeezed out how? By whom? Is imigration really at the root of the problem? and are those problems fixed by brexit?
Well the obvious answer is of course this has nothing at all to do with Brexit.
Squeezed out by whom ... the easy answer isn't really accurate because it's not on the whole individuals.
Sure he has had his house and car vandalised by a small minority but he knows that is a small minority. He's been kindly told to just pretend to be muslim .. (and I mean kindly I'm not being sarcastic - these are people trying to give friendly advice) and if his wife could just wear appropriate clothing etc. Then when he say's why don't you tell my wife yourself he gets told that's completely inappropriate, she is his responsibility.
We have had many many conversations over the years... if we dropped in on my aunt and uncle there was a 25% chance they were next door or 25% next door were with them - If my aunt or uncle weren't in we'd go next door. .so this isn't an answer to "But why did you vote Brexit and how do you think that will change anything"...
However, trying to distil that? He and his wife feel like the "local community is an organism that excludes outsiders"... and that whilst 90% of the individuals are well meaning and nice people collectively they close in... he's pretty sure "the community" know who sprayed **** off across his car and the same about his garage but "the community" as a collective won't say.
so my understanding, based on all that and a lot more... he is against an immigration system that creates ghetto's and enclaves. He's against the closed communities these ghetto's create... He is not against the people themselves.
Edukator:
But they are racist. They discrimate on the basis of culture, origin and colour. Racist.
Who is racist? The people who sprayed **** off on his car and house? They aren't discriminating based on colour at least unless you count him being darker ???
They aren’t discriminating based on colour at least unless you count him being darker ???
racism isnt just about skin colour (as edukator points out)
problem is that races dont really exist, its cultures people have have issues with and discrimination is based on complex combinations
also does your friend still support Brexit?
I have an Indian born doctor colleague who voted leave and she now regrets it deeply, partly based on the racism she has seen from other leavers (the only other leave voting doctor I know was caught saying some pretty awful stuff on facebook) & partly because she is very upset that what we the brexiteers promised is the opposite of what johnson is delivering.
Racism isn't only based on colour. The EU considers: race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin.
@stevextc i see where you/he are coming from but i don't see that Brexit will fix his issues with immigrant communities. In fact i suspect he should be very pissed off to discover that the Brexit he voted for promoted the segregation and divide and exacerbates the issue.
https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1182065357206573056?s=21
https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1182066195199090689?s=21
Still think it’ll be election then referendum, but I expect more and more MPs (on both sides of the house) looking at a referendum first approach in these last few weeks before our current exit date.
dissonance
So Commonwealth and more specific I would guess ****stan or India?
There was a specific campaign by the brexiteers targeting those communities. Basically saying how despite the years of association between the UK and Commonwealth all those Europeans were being treated far better and, if we left, then restrictions would be lifted on Commonwealth countries.
This is probably a contributory factor but on the latter part.
I honestly don't think he has anything against or for any specific ethnicity or religion or in anyway would favour commonwealth over eastern european of anyone else. He quite simply wants the best for everyone. He's an agnosto-bhuddist (if anything).
However ... I think you are right as well. He's been saying the same things for years... and he has been targeted/excluded for years... so though he might not want to promote or otherwise commonwealth specific immigration or not I think perhaps he found people he could talk to without being called racist.
This is the point I was trying to raise ... I can't truly think of anyone less racist (and he's obviously an intelligent bloke) but somehow he has been put into a place where he can say his views and that landed somewhere on the "Leave" side?
Is this thread descending into another “I’m not racist but” black hole? That’s very 2016… I think most of the country moved on from that long ago.
racism isnt just about skin colour (as edukator points out)
problem is that races dont really exist, its cultures people have have issues with and discrimination is based on complex combinations
My guess is he would agree with you 100%....
also does your friend still support Brexit?
I have an Indian born doctor colleague who voted leave and she now regrets it deeply, partly based on the racism she has seen from other leavers (the only other leave voting doctor I know was caught saying some pretty awful stuff on facebook) & partly because she is very upset that what we the brexiteers promised is the opposite of what johnson is delivering.
I haven't seen him since my aunt's funeral.. but they live hours away and I'd only get to visit my aunt once a year or so anyway.
edits:
I'm guessing he now regrets it... for the same reasons.
I think the thing was I was so shocked he'd voted to Leave in the first place.
Corbyn says the first task of a Labour government would be to get Brexit sorted.
The first task of a Labour government will be to finally get Brexit sorted.
After three years of Tory failure, it’s time to take the decision out of the hands of politicians and let the people have the final say.
So a Labour government will immediately legislate for a referendum.
And he sums up the Brexit position confirmed at Labour’s conference.
Within six months of being elected we will put that deal to a public vote alongside remain.
And as prime minister I will carry out whatever the people decide.
There’s nothing complicated about that position. It’s really very simple: Labour trusts the people to decide.
from the gruaniad
edukator
Racism isn’t only based on colour. The EU considers: race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin.
So you still didn't say who is racist?
Is it my doctor friend because he doesn't like having his house and car vandalised and his wife harassed or is it the people harassing him and telling him to leave/spraying **** off over his car and house on multiple occasions? Or is it the people who know who are doing this but won't divulge it to someone of a different (or lack of) religion because they are not part of THEIR community?
How will leaving the EU help your doctor friend?
So what happens if Labour can't get the deal they want (even if just to have it go to a referendum)?
They want freedom of movement of goods but not people, which I thought was stepping over an EU red-line. Do get put forward a Norway or a Canada, which will be followed by howls of 'this isn't what we voted for'?
They just get the political declaration changed to say that the UK won’t undercut EU workers rights, and that common external tariffs will be maintained. Then we vote on it, while the PM goes on holiday and leaves everyone else to fight the referendum. And yes, “not real Brexit” will be the cry from those seeking to damage the UK for their own interests… but that would be true of any Brexit that Labour puts its name to.
Of course, if the public votes for it, the turmoil continues… as we (Labour?) try to get a trade deal to kick in after the transition period that delivers the unicorns, even though most ministers and MPs know that’s not possible. It might end up with something akin to EEA including FoM, it might just end up in more of a mess if dumping FoM is stuck to… but that’s a 2022 problem though…
IMHO a driving force for BREXIT has been calling out anyone who dares question immigration or migrants as racist.
A driving force for brexit has been racism. What you mention may well be an issue too, but it's at best a secondary one. You only need to spend a few minutes looking at pro-leave web pages / Facebook to see this narrative front and centre.
I don't think that questioning our immigration approach is implicitly racist, there's plenty of things we could do to tighten up our policies to be (somewhat ironically) more in line with the rest of the EU. But that's not what people are shouting for, they want to "send them all back where they came from."
(Combined with lack of free speech in other things that are blamed on the EU)
I'd love to know what free speech they feel is being curtailed.
What we have created seems to be pockets of bi-culturalism… that are “English/other” vs <<local majority immigrant origins>> where <<majority local immigrant origins>> changes depending where you live.
I don't as we've created it so much as it's just happened. @Kerley said what I was going to here:
"People from the UK do this as much as others, look at Spain and see where all the expats live. Are they living in villages full of Spanish natives, are they all now speaking fluent Spanish, are they integrated in any way at all or do they still go to the pubs with union jacks on and eat proper British food"
And yes, that can be a problem, or at the very least it can be a perceived problem. I live in an area with a large Asian population, at my junior school there were like five Asian kids in my class, at the same school it's been "spot the white kid" for years now. If you're someone who has never really travelled much farther than your home town then it's really not difficult to see how the "taking over" / "Islamification of the UK" fears can quickly manifest and grow.
But it's just enclaves. I went on holiday a few weeks ago to Whitby and surrounding area, I think I saw one Indian family all week and everyone else was white. Back when I had a girlfriend in a small village in South Wales for a couple of years I saw one brown face once, a ****stani bloke living the stereotype as the owner of a corner shop. (He also had a thick Valleys accent which gave me cognitive dissonance somewhat!)
The only place in the UK I've ever seen true multiculturalism existing and working (and working very well) is London. Even in places like Manchester, you'll see all walks of life milling around on the streets but people still cluster when they settle.
there are areas where our UK immigration policies have created segregation
How exactly have immigration policies created segregation?
People will naturally stick together. So are you going to forcibly break them up or force them to live in other places? That's not going to go down well.
kelvin
How will leaving the EU help your doctor friend?
It won't in way way shape or form.... and I very much doubt he ever even considered it would.
Is this thread descending into another “I’m not racist but” black hole? That’s very 2016… I think most of the country moved on from that long ago.
I think you'll find that no-one moved on and that many of the reasons for protest votes got swept under the carpet for remain whilst leave has been pouring on petrol.
This isn't the ONLY item that people cast protest votes against and now we are discussing having another referendum whilst continuing to ignore some valid/semi-valid reasons people voted leave as a protest vote.
LOTS of people are saying "we don't want muslim/polish/martian enclaves" and they are being dismissed as "racist". (then lets move on) ... there is a whole set of other people who claim the politicians aren't listening for other reasons.
Very few of those reasons have anything to do with the EU.... BUT they don't care....
They are being lied to (transparently) and they still don't care. FFS the "we will get the best deal" mob are now almost all claiming "they never voted for a deal..."
All cummings needs to do is keep leave saying "leave are listening" ... and they have turkeys voting for XMAS. "Just vote leave/no deal and we hear you... we will sort this all out later"
A driving force for brexit has been racism.
where's your actual evidence for that ?
How many people were actually influenced by the sites you looked at ?
All polls suggest views on immigration have shifted a long way since 2016. Of course the next election and/or referendum campaigns could see it shift back fast. But currently, few people are talking about Brexit as regards immigration, apart from those who blame migration for everything anyway, and will continue to do so whatever happens between the UK&EU. It’s all about “democracy” now, and “delivering Brexit”, “Leave means Leave”, all far more nebulous than actual defined expected “benefits” such as fewer immigrants from Eastern Europe (or even Syria). That’s all very 2016 and mostly people have moved on from that (or, as you say, might just appear to have on the surface, for now).
where’s your actual evidence for that ?
The sentence next but one after the one you quoted. Plus conversations I've had / overheard in meatspace over the years.
And OK, yes, that's anecdotal and I've argued myself that the gammons are a minority that probably aren't representative of leave voters as a whole. But immigration concerns was the number one motivator for the leave vote, we knew this days after the referendum.
So the question then becomes, "why were people concerned about immigration?" And whilst there may well be other factors, it would be somewhat naive to think that a simple dislike of foreigners wasn't a driving force.
The use of ww2 era styled posters suggesting quite strongly that the population of Turkey were coming to the UK for one.
The poster with the line of dispossessed based on the Nazi propaganda picture poster farage stood in front of.
The doctor's surgery which contrasted a waiting room filled to the brim with people from other ethnicities under EU membership, with a relatively empty one populated by predominantly whites after we leave.
No, race didn't play a part in the campaign at all...
Labours " deal" would need a complete renegotiation as it includes staying in the customs union - thus at one stroke removing all the NI issues. Different red lines different deal. Highly unlikely to happen tho. Its effectively BINO
Turnerguy - its obvious that a large driver for brexit was racism. Just read anything from the leave side. "controlling immigrating" is racist speak for make UK white
Another anecdote,
Radio 4 interviewing a Polish woman (paraphrasing from memory):
"I believe that someone has put up a 'vote leave' poster in the staff room?"
"Yes, that's right."
"And is it true that someone has written 'come on Britain, send the ****s back where they came from' on it?" (*)
"it is, yes."
So, yes, totally nothing to do with racism.
(* - and yes, R4 did casually drop the c-bomb in a midweek interview at about 2 in the afternoon. I almost crashed the car.)
And lest we forget,
[img] 
[/img]
Labours ” deal” would need a complete renegotiation as it includes staying in the customs union
No, the Withdrawl Agreement already has us staying in “the” Customs Union after the transition period, that’s why “new trade deals” Tories were against it. Labour just needs to make it clear that the UK will be seeking to maintain common external tariffs long term in a revised political declaration… “a” future custom union, if you like.
few people are talking about Brexit as regards immigration
I haven't heard anyone pro talking about Brexit other than "getting it done", "will of the people", etc. No one has said once "Brexit is done we can..." Or "we need to get a deal because..." and then some actual reason.
I think the point is more that the kind of crap Leave.EU are pulling is over the score even for true believers.
I did wonder if they are 'testing' the waters on this and it didn't go down well.
TBH they always remind me of BNP, EDL and Britain First 'lite'.
Part of me would like to see them banned on facebook but the other part weighs up that silencing an opinion that isn't yours is bad.
How exactly have immigration policies created segregation?
People will naturally stick together. So are you going to forcibly break them up or force them to live in other places? That’s not going to go down well.
When we had the influx of Somali refuggees in the 90's Cardiff was specifically chosen as a preferred location to settle many. The reasonable reason being Cardiff due to it's history as a cosmopolitan sea port already had an established Somali population. All of them were found housing either in the Docks(Bay) or Grangetown, because thats were the other Somalis already lived. It was well meaning but not popular with the existing population. They felt it put a strain on local services and might cause prejudice against them when none had previously existed (not much anyway). Interestingly their biggest concern was that the new arrivals were mostly from a different clan so were looked on with mistrust and suspicion.
Rather than "controlling immigration" we need to be talking about "managing immigration". As Michel Roccard said, a country can't accept all the miseries of the world but should accept its fair share. There's immigration that's an emergency such as the recent Syrian refugee movement to mainly Germany. Then there are economic migrants (I'm one, an economic migrant and immigrant).
It all needs managing, a country has needs which can be fulfilled and a capacity to welcome people in real need under good conditions which it would be unwise to exceed. It's a question of where you set the bar(s).
Immigration policy need not be racist, but unfortunately it often is.
molgrips
How exactly have immigration policies created segregation?
People will naturally stick together. So are you going to forcibly break them up or force them to live in other places? That’s not going to go down well.
Did you read the linked BBC article?
There are several recommendations.... how effective these might be is open to question but "sweeping it under the carpet" ... definitely won't and simply plays into LEAVE hands.
What I am picking up from remainers is that they initially got into this as their concerns (whatever they were) were being ignored by the two main parties.
Leave is then "radicalising" and blaming this on the EU and conflating this with "your politicians aren't listening to you" ... "they won't let you speak without calling you names".
From THEIR perspective ...
REMAIN: You are not allowed to ask that question
LEAVE: Yes we agree (whatever it is) but we can't do anything until we leave the EU.... vote for us .. then whatever it is you are saying we will do...
e.g. BREXIT PARTY ... "we don't have a manifesto"
Bojo "We will implement a points based system that will protect people like you" (without even caring what "people like you" is.
And As I have said previously... many leave voters are going to have a HUGE shock ...but for now they will vote with the side that doesn't tell them to "shut up you can't ask/say that"
“shut up you can’t ask/say that”
You mean stuff like denouncing judges as "enemies of the people" when their verdict isn't to the taste of Brexiters. That's a famous headline I won't link given the source
This twitter thread is fun reading… a Brexit cheerleading minister adding to the endless reasons to bin this Brexit boondoggle with handy simple videos…
https://twitter.com/andrealeadsom/status/1181948079467053056?s=21
(Taking to business people as if they are year4 kids is her speciality, and she’s running with it).
Cougar...
The sentence next but one after the one you quoted. Plus conversations I’ve had / overheard in meatspace over the years.
And OK, yes, that’s anecdotal and I’ve argued myself that the gammons are a minority that probably aren’t representative of leave voters as a whole. But immigration concerns was the number one motivator for the leave vote, we knew this days after the referendum.
So the question then becomes, “why were people concerned about immigration?” And whilst there may well be other factors, it would be somewhat naive to think that a simple dislike of foreigners wasn’t a driving force.
I don't agree with your conclusion...."it would be somewhat naive to think that a simple dislike of foreigners wasn’t a driving force."
I actually agree with edukator in that our issue is HOW we manage it... we actually have a low percentage of migrants/immigrants but our idea of management causes and feeds resentment that when people are not allowed to speak up festers into racism, helped along by those with an agenda like Farage.
taxi
When we had the influx of Somali refuggees in the 90’s Cardiff was specifically chosen as a preferred location to settle many. The reasonable reason being Cardiff due to it’s history as a cosmopolitan sea port already had an established Somali population. All of them were found housing either in the Docks(Bay) or Grangetown, because thats were the other Somalis already lived. It was well meaning but not popular with the existing population. They felt it put a strain on local services and might cause prejudice against them when none had previously existed (not much anyway). Interestingly their biggest concern was that the new arrivals were mostly from a different clan so were looked on with mistrust and suspicion.
edukator
You mean stuff like denouncing judges as “enemies of the people” when their verdict isn’t to the taste of Brexiters. That’s a famous headline I won’t link given the source
That and 1001 others.... and its been done before.
Next step burn down parliament because it is obstructing the will of the people (volk)
take back the control ceded at the treaty of Versailles sorry Lisbon.
(Taking to business people as if they are year4 kids is her speciality, and she’s running with it).
This isn't for business people.... this is for the excuse that "we told you what you needed to do"
when people are not allowed to speak
People are allowed to speak up, always have been… and we are allowed to ask them why they see migrants as the problem, and not the rest of us? I mean, my child is a “drain on the NHS”, and his French teacher is not. EEA migrants contribute more to pay for public services than UK born people do. Etc.
If, what is needed, is for people to start agreeing that education, the NHS, local public services etc are stretched to breaking point because of migration, rather than because of the governments that we elect to make decisions on our behalf, well, we don’t all have to join in with that. We can disagree. People can have their say, no one has ever been stopping them, but some of us should be pointing out that they may have got it wrong.
I actually agree with edukator in that our issue is HOW we manage it…
Yup. Clearly differentiating between immigrants and refugees might be a good place as any to start.
when people are not allowed to speak up
Who exactly isn't allowed to speak up? And about what?
If they want to have a sensible discussion about immigration policy, we're listening.
If they want to "send them all back where they came from" then they can expect to be challenged on that, but they're still allowed to say it.
If they want to arrange a march to go and "kick a few ****s' head in" then they're not allowed to say that, and rightly so.
In the UK you can say pretty much what you like, though there are laws around hate speech. You cannot stir up racial hatred. If this is the "lack of free speech" that some people are arguing against then, well, I don't know what to add to that. (Of note perhaps is these same laws are what prevents that hook-handed bawbag from doing the same thing. Be careful what they wish for, hey.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#United_Kingdom
United Kingdom citizens have a negative right to freedom of expression under the common law. In 1998, the United Kingdom incorporated the European Convention, and the guarantee of freedom of expression it contains in Article 10, into its domestic law under the Human Rights Act. However, there is a broad sweep of exceptions including threatening, abusive or insulting words or behavior intending or likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress or cause a breach of the peace (which has been used to prohibit racist speech targeted at individuals), sending any article which is indecent or grossly offensive with an intent to cause distress or anxiety (which has been used to prohibit speech of a racist or anti-religious nature), incitement, incitement to racial hatred, incitement to religious hatred, incitement to terrorism including encouragement of terrorism and dissemination of terrorist publications, glorifying terrorism, collection or possession of a document or record containing information likely to be of use to a terrorist, treason including advocating for the abolition of the monarchy (which cannot be successfully prosecuted) or compassing or imagining the death of the monarch... obscenity, indecency including corruption of public morals and outraging public decency, defamation, prior restraint, restrictions on court reporting including names of victims and evidence and prejudicing or interfering with court proceedings, prohibition of post-trial interviews with jurors, scandalising the court by criticising or murmuring judges, time, manner, and place restrictions, harassment, privileged communications, trade secrets, classified material, copyright, patents, military conduct, and limitations on commercial speech such as advertising.
It'd be interesting to know which bits of that lot your doctor friend or those totally not racist at all anti-immigration leavers you're referring to are objecting against.
(I've highlighted the bits which seem to be 'speech' rather than 'expression.' Any mistakes are accidental.)
So what happens if Labour can’t get the deal they want (even if just to have it go to a referendum)?
I suspect it will be mays deal v remain could be no deal v remain
Leave campaign have out manoeuvred remain or the soft Brexit repeately. I can't see a rabbit being pulled from the hat at this stage unfortunately.
I actually agree with edukator in that our issue is HOW we manage it
So do I and it could be managed so much better whilst still being in the EU. Our government choose not to.
Who exactly isn’t allowed to speak up?
It was one of the many lies/memes of the brexit campaign. Somehow conflating atrocities like the Rotherham/Rochdale rape gangs (muslim ray gans), with PC culture and blaming the EU because they can no longer use abusive language to describe foreigners, women or gays. It is all a completely ludicrous and mixed up logic that defies even the briefest moment of critical analysis, and I am surprised a doctor would fall for.
For anyone to suggest that racist sentiment has not been a factor in many people voting Leave is at best incredibly naive, at worst utterly and totally wrong (checks poster's history). Ah.
We have the Breaking Point posters, the banner near my home that depicted a caricature of Angela Merkel leading brown people across the white cliffs of Dover, the numerous posts from Leave.Eu and others suggesting that mutliculturalism and unchecked immigration have led to longer queues for NHS services.
Then there's the gleeful phone call I received on the 24th June 2016 from an elderly relative (irrespective of that fact that at the time my employer was an international aid charity) saying "Isn't it brilliant? No more bloody commissioners from bloody Bombay telling us what to do" followed by "but I don't want them here, blowing things up".
Immigration as a topic has been conflated by an irresponsible media and callous exploitation of people's fear and prejudice - the Leave advert depicting Turkey as a new member of the EU and it's proximity to Iraq and Syria...nope, absolutely no implied racism there at all.