Part of me would like to see them banned on facebook but the other part weighs up that silencing an opinion that isn’t yours is bad.
It does amuse me when people complain about free speech on these platforms. That are owned by a corporation, that we use for free.
You are playing in their sandbox by their rules, if you don't like it, tough.
Also speech isn't free, there is a responsibility that comes with it's use that a lot of these people don't like.
May's deal v2.3.45.6.5.00.1.2, pointless boogaloo?
"tell you what, you have Northern Ireland"
Johnson looks like a thirteen year old being told off for forgetting his homework for the seventh week on the trot.
How did we end up with this nuckfugget as a PM.
Just back from 5 days in Valencia with a leaver.
They were celebrating the defeating of the Moors. Apparently the EU wouldn't let us celebrate anything like that.
She wouldn't turn her phone on as it was so expensive when they did in Switzerland. I explained that it was just the same as being in England. She sat there all triumphant saying "we won't be able to do that in 2 weeks". Also we can't buy anything in duty free as we are in Europe.
I think calling leavers **** wits is entirely justified.
Do get put forward a Norway or a Canada, which will be followed by howls of ‘this isn’t what we voted for’?
That's the entire problem though, isn't it. We can't decide what we voted for, so we clarify the options and put them to the public. If we vote for a Norway or Canada style agreement, then there we have it, we finally have a direction, and it breaks the deadlock in parliament.
As for immigration, I've seen very little talk of it recently. It's all about sovereignty and taking back control, back to the British Empire and all that jazz. But during the original leave campaign, a lot was made about immigration, with talk of Turkey joining the EU and the Syrian refugee movement. It should also be remembered that this was all triggered by UKIP and their focus on immigration policies, way before the referendum.
Now we have a situation where it's less about the reasons people voted in the first place, and more about their vote being delivered regardless of the outcome, because of the injustice they feel if it's not. There seems to be a fair amount of confirmation bias going on, taking popular opinion from pro-brexit groups, in order to justify their continued support.
Also speech isn’t free, there is a responsibility that comes with it’s use that a lot of these people don’t like.
My response tend to be that you can say what you want, but no-one has to provide you with a platform to say it on.
I wonder if Boris is being talked around into something that is essentially the same as May's deal. Because that was the only realistic possibility from the EU point of view.
Parliament might then decide to press for a 2nd ref to put the boot in on Boris for political reasons.
Maybe. As far as I could tell, the only options that were ever on the table were No Deal, May's Deal (maybe as v1.01), or Revoke.
May had teams of people working on that backstop stuff - it clearly took absolutely ages to thrash out.
Hands Johnson with his Woo-Haa attitude and 50 Gallon Hat, improve on what it transpires with hindsight is looking more and more like a genuine professional attempt at a deal? Never going to happen. Statesmanship is not a game for dunces with jokes.
There are four options;
• No Deal
• WA with all Ireland Customs backstop (as UK & EU originally agreed)
• WA with all UK Customs backstop (as UK & EU agreed after DUP complained)
• Cancel or delay
That's 5, just sayin'
😉
Boris & Leo are at Thornton Manor, a mile from me.
Any requests?
Mays deal was a very good one considering her red lines. Giving her a UK wide exception to some EU rules to prevent an east / west boarder in the Irish was very generous indeed
Maybe Johnson is hoping that enough labour idiots will vote for Mays deal in disguise to get it thru 30 of them in Kinnocks group of idiots have said they would vote for it now rather than have a second referendum. ERG will vote for a deal that the DUP say is ok.
Trouble is I still cannot see anything that the DUP would accept that the EU would accept.
That’s 5, just sayin’
Fair enough, but cancel and delay aren’t that different really. If we cancel, the next government could just treat is as a delay and kick it off again.
Trouble is I still cannot see anything that the DUP would accept that the EU would accept.
If Brexit happens, it’s either No Deal or no DUP sign off.
I almost expect the 19th to be a vote on a WA that DUP can’t accept… amended by back benchers to include a referendum so that opposition MPs can vote with it instead of the DUP.
I think tho applying the rules of Kremlinology to the joint statement from Johnson and Varadker you can clearly see that actually nothing has changed and no progress made
She sat there all triumphant saying “we won’t be able to do that in 2 weeks”.
"What, come to Valencia for a week? You're probably right."
She's wrong about that anyway. All of the major UK carriers - for now at least - have said they won't reintroduce hiked-up EU roaming charges post-brexit. There's nothing to stop them from doing so in the future though.
Further to my post above - unless Johnson has agreed a boarder in the Irish sea and then the bit about consent means selling this to the DUP
After another failed attempt at a deal though a delay for 'more negotiations' is going to look pointless.
Juncker :
unless Johnson has agreed a boarder in the Irish sea and then the bit about consent means selling this to the DUP
The DUP are irrelevant. Even with their votes he's massively short of a majority in parliament even if every Tory votes for his deal. It can be the best deal imaginable for the DUP but if he doesn't convince the Tory rebels plus enough labour rebels then he's wasting his, and everyone else's, time
Also speech isn’t free, there is a responsibility that comes with it’s use that a lot of these people don’t like.
This goes much, much further than free speech. Far too many want their rights upheld but are not prepared to give one solitary toss about the rights of other people.
But they are racist. They discrimate on the basis of culture, origin and colour. Racist.
Steve is making a similar argument as Professor Eric Kaufmann of Birkbeck University. I haven’t really had time to grapple with his ideas other than whilst those who are educated might be able to understand the nuance in his ideas - they are something that could easily be used to gentrify the far right.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Whiteshift-Populism-Immigration-Future-Majorities/dp/024131710X
https://mobile.twitter.com/epkaufm?lang=en
He doesn’t believe in and routinely attacks civic nationalism which I find fairly scary. What makes me laugh is that he claims his ideas aren’t racist and he’s only trying to stop the spread of populism, but he thinks the west is going to become “beige”.
I find him dangerous because here - https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/interview-with-eric-kaufmann/ he comes across as less extreme and offers a different insight for what he presumes to be a different audience (just like he suggests centrist parties doing).
Statesmanship is not a game for dunces with jokes.
But unfortunately getting elected by the ‘great’ british public might be. The most depressing thing about this slide into populism is that it is weaponising stupidity. Even the likes of that arsehole Cummings are probably shaking their heads and saying “**** me, I can’t believe these idiots keep going for this”.
Statesmanship is not a game for dunces with jokes.
But unfortunately getting elected by the ‘great’ british public might be.
Boarding bob - part of the issue is that the ERG will only vote for a deal if the DUP say its ok. Johnson will be hoping to attract the stupid Kinnock bunch to vote for a deal - 30 of them have publicly said they will and they claim another 40 supporters
Thats why the DUP remain important tho as the ERG will vote alongside them
The DUP were the only party in NI against the Good Friday Agreement.
ERG members keep claiming, as recently as today, that the whole of Ireland will leave the EU.
No working Withdrawal Agreement will get support from either, they want the damage.
Anything other than No Deal probably has to get through parliament without their support.
It's become very obvious that the ignorant trope of 'the EU have weaponised the Irish border to kill brexit' hides the actual truth-
The DUP are using brexit to kill the GFA
Cougar
Clearly differentiating between immigrants and refugees might be a good place as any to start.
Or go one step further and call them all Ex-pats.
The frothing right have no problem with Ex-pats, so that's the problem solved. 🙂
Good point, well made.
"Nissan Europe 'unsustainable' in no-deal Brexit"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50000530
The gift that keeps on giving. Even if there is a deal I bet Nissan and others won't be here in 10 years.
The loons are out tonight on Question Time Extra Time on R5 - I mean callers, not guests or presenter(s).
F me - so much bollocks, random references to unrelated past events.
Certifiable idiots.
Makes me really angry that they're allowed to air nonsense views unchallenged.
It does amuse me when people complain about free speech on these platforms. That are owned by a corporation, that we use for free.
You are playing in their sandbox by their rules, if you don’t like it, tough.
Like on here 🙂
Yep and when they pull the accounts people like Tommy can’t spread their poison (or is it opinion).
Anyway Platform is unimportant if you promote hate speech it’s still hate speech and our current law doesn’t count hate speech as free speech.
Freedom of speech does not equal freedom from accountability.
Freedom of speech does not equal freedom from accountability.
So, where's the lying police when we needed them?
Or go one step further and call them all Ex-pats.
Please no, i always hated the word "Ex-pat". Can't we all be immigrants? 😀
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/11/british-brands-brace-for-trump-tariffs-eu
I see our special relationship is really paying dividends, who knew we’d get diplomats with a colonialist attitude towards the natives and increased tariffs that would be aimed at us British.
Britain doesn’t have any friends does it. 😀
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0GIGKYVeNCc
I see Rees-Mogg has raided Tesco's dustbin of discarded brand designs.
Exactly what I thought. (-: Tesco Value Brexit?
Cougar
It’d be interesting to know which bits of that lot your doctor friend or those totally not racist at all anti-immigration leavers you’re referring to are objecting against.
What you just quoted is made irrelevant when "racism" or "sexism" or whatever "-ism" is thrown out as a reason why something can't be addressed or conversely why something is pushed. It's actually got little or nothing to do with a legal definition and everything to do with perception.
You are also asking a very complex question for me to answer on behalf of others.
Did you actually READ the linked BBC article?
"Segregation at 'worrying levels' in parts of Britain, Dame Louise Casey warns"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38200989
Chuka Umunna, who chairs the all-party parliamentary group on social integration, agreed
that division had bred extremism and was "sapping our communities of trust".
So are we going to accuse Chuka of racism too?
Why not read the ACTUAL REPORT?
I may be wrong, I hope I am but I think it is a huge mistake to ignore the "our politicians don't listen to us" in any possible referendum with Remain on the table.
Or go one step further and call them all Ex-pats.
The frothing right have no problem with Ex-pats, so that’s the problem solved
Fundamentally different philosophy, even though one can change into another.
I've been both, my OH is an immigrant who started off as a ex-pat.
raybanwomble
Steve is making a similar argument as Professor Eric Kaufmann of Birkbeck University. I haven’t really had time to grapple with his ideas other than whilst those who are educated might be able to understand the nuance in his ideas – they are something that could easily be used to gentrify the far right.
I'm not really trying to argue either way, I'm saying ignore the "the politicans don't listen to us because we are not allowed to say XYZ at your peril"
My observations is that the far right are hijacking these people
However on a bit of reflection and in reference to the ex-pat post... I think I'm agreeing on the populism part.
What strikes me (for example) is that a report specifically commissioned to address exclusion in the UK can be labelled as racist due to it's findings.
If a sector of society practice FGM then identifying that sector is surely a requirement to address it? If sectors of our society have female literacy rates more indicative of dark age Britain than the 21C then IMHO it's not racist to identify that.
What I find weird coming from France (where I was an expat then immigrant) is that in general the populist response would be completely different. If someone in France published a factual report that 48% of women in a sector of French society can't speak French the public would be outraged this could be allowed to happen... whereas in the UK the populist public response seems to be to cry racism.
my OH is an immigrant who started off as a ex-pat.
?
my OH is an immigrant who started off as a ex-pat.
dogbone
?
What's not to understand?
She came to the UK with every intention of returning home and at some point settled.
I went to France on a temporary basis... like many places I lived and worked before but then unlike other places I'd been an expat at some point I put down roots... and had no intention of returning.
As things worked out I ended up back in the UK ... but there is a fundamental difference in how you think about somewhere you are working temporarily and somewhere you fully expect to stay.
Yup, that's how I'd look at it, ex-pats are temporary residents whilst immigrants are permenant.