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Pesky Institute of Fiscal Studies at it again with more no doubt 'fake news': https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49961301
How the hell can the tories still portray themselves as the party of fiscal prudence?
Hopefully one of the grown-ups will be along in a minute to debunk this blatant fear mongering.
Newsnight just reporting that #10 is briefing that EU27 countries who vote against our request for delay will be prioritised for collaborations in the future; those that vote for delays will go to the end of the queue
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/how-number-10-view-the-state-of-the-negotiations/
Classic Dom.
I made the mistake of reading some of the comments. Errrrr, WTF?
Just use EVEL votes to declare England is dissolving the Treaty of Union and is now independent.
The balance of power in parliament will now rest forever with the Tories because the MPs from the provinces and the colony have rarely supported them, so no one will miss them.
Job done, no need for pesky negotiations with the EU. Then take up the kind offer from the USA for England to become the 51st state of the USA, and it's job done.
And those whinging subsidy-junky Scots can look after themselves for once.
Easy peasy...
Jesus H christ, the world are laughing their arsses off at such clumsy idiotic attempts at bullying. Surely the leavers must see that with these clowns in charge the uk is going to be tossed around like a rag doll being torn apart by a pack off terriers in any future trade negotiations. Even if you ideologically believe in brexit it is quite clear that those delivering it are experts in nothing but abject failure.
MSP
Even if you ideologically believe in brexit it is quite clear that those delivering it are experts in nothing but abject failure.
The donkeys are doing to the economy what they did to our troops in WW1.
largest democratic @@@@ in history
Ignoring the special pleading that needs some strict definition of "largest" .. this is as much a question of what @@@@ gets replaced with.
It doesn't matter how many people vote for something that is impossible, it's still impossible.
Of course we can leave the EU ... but leaving the EU and keeping the promises made by leave is impossible and in many cases downright lies.
I don't even know where to start on the lies... curved bananas? not claiming the money for the NHS under EHIC? Not implementing perfectly legal border controls? 650M a week? All these were known lies ...
Then there are the lies which were always lies but could be pretended otherwise, "the easiest trade deal in history the day AFTER we vote", joining EFTA ... etc. that only the deluded might really beleive.
With the option to rejoin always on the table
Another outright lie .... the option is obviously not on the table for the UK because the UK won't get a vote if it leaves.
However most worrying is that many seem to be carried along with ignoring the lies "if only we all believe" .... the easiest deal changed from the "day after we vote" to "the day after we leave".
It's beyond me why anyone would believe this ... "fool me once, shame on you"....
I quite honestly don't understand why anyone would believe that the ONLY way to get what you voted for is to continue the lie.
I see Dom is busy 'leaking' selective information again. Apparently even UK Brexit ministers haven't yet seen the full 44 page legal text of the UKs proposal to the EU. All decisions are being made by Dom and Dommer.
We now don't really have a government in any recognisable sense of the word. Instead, we've got 2 madmen basically formulating UK policy on their own, in a bunker, at the most important critical point since the second world war, with no consultation with anyone
Truly terrifying!
The only thing we can be certain of is that this countries future is looking bleaker and bleaker by the day
I normally only read this thread and not get involved, but unfortunately that has now gone out of the window.
Quite frankyly @exsee, you seem a bit of an Ar$ewipe. Leave only options referendum, you cant seriously believe that? You must be trolling.
As has been pointed out to you, several times, a statically insignificant opinion poll (read this as 'non-legally binding') means that "the will of the people" bollox forces one option that can be given to the electorate to be taken off the paper? And you still have the temerity to talk about democracy?
Heres an idea, how about we show the world our democracy in action (you know taking back control and all that) and put the available options on a referendum and allow the people to choose from all three options, namely: No Deal leave, leave with BloJo's as yet invisible Deal, or Revoke A50. Those are all the options that could be proposed, there are no other options, so give the people a chance to confirm/overturn this "largest democratic vote in British history" since you are such a fan of democracy.
And to say you think that a compromise deal will make 'most people happy' is talking out your ar$e I'm affraid.
I wonder what previously banned member exsee is?
Heres an idea, how about we show the world our democracy in action (you know taking back control and all that) and put the available options on a referendum and allow the people to choose from all three options, namely: No Deal leave, leave with BloJo’s as yet invisible Deal, or Revoke A50
Because, even assuming BoJo actually GETS a deal with the EU it is still a huge way from the promises of fantastic global trade deals. Despite having 3 yrs Leave have not published a single MoU and the leaks of the ones we have got (made by the foreign powers) quite plainly are not acceptable to most Leave voters. The US has made it clear we need to accept their food standards and that "the NHS is on the table", India made it plain it wants visas, work permits and FoM. (and these are just the points released by the US and India)
Where is this Australian style points system? It should be published and I strongly suspect many LEAVE voters will strongly object to their jobs being replaced.
and ... the elephant in the room of the NI/RoI border.
On the other side, remain has not made clear several points. In the hubris of the referendum these were ignored...
To be fair there are 2 end points on remain... and these are entirely down to the UK
Quite a few of these things we could do but don't could be quite influential to LEAVE voters and quite a few could also be positive to a few REMAIN voters. Many issues that influenced LEAVE voters have been ignored and in fact could be addressed in whole or part simply by UK legislation.
Just a few examples:
Why do we not exert our current legal controls over protecting British jobs? (Other EU members have done this... and there is a great deal of UK legislation could be put forwards and passed if there was a will.
Why do we not claim back money under EHIC? What is the cost and what is lost?
I suspect the cost vs lost income is minor but why not publish and put it on the table?
Why do we pay child support for children not in the UK? How much do we pay, how many of these are born in the UK ?
To do this we have to not discriminate on EU vs UK.. again I expect this is minor and the flipside would be some UK born kids living abroad would have to claim in the country they live.
There are plenty more ... but I think there could be at least 2 REMAIN OPTIONS .... the "Remain As-Is" vs "Remain and Reform UK policies"
largest democratic vote in history
Numerically apparently marginally more voted in the 1992 general election and if adjusted for electoral size (ie based on % turnout) about 15th largest democratic vote.
Any referendum with more than two options would be a total fudge, remain or leave (leave option being whatever deal can be agreed or no deal if one can't be agreed - as is looking most likely)
@exsee play the ball, not the man.
You said we'd be better off when we leave. In what way do you believe we'd be better off? The only thing you've offered so far is something about missing cherries, how do you perceive that having less of something (whatever "cherries" are supposed to be) is a good thing?
You handwave us having a say in the EU as a small thing. Our MEPs make up currently one tenth of the EU give or take loose change, in a very real sense we tell them what to do rather than the other way around as per popular rhetoric. I'm struggling to see how giving this up is either trivial or beneficial. Perhaps you could enlighten us?
Any referendum with more than two options would be a total fudge, remain or leave (leave option being whatever deal can be agreed or no deal if one can’t be agreed – as is looking most likely)
I've said this several times now, but should we have another referendum the only sensible vote would be on whatever leave terms we've agreed in the EU and in parliament vs scrapping the whole thing. Having multiple separate leave options would split the vote and wouldn't be fair on leave voters. Essentially, a third referendum would be "this is what we've come up with, do you want it or not?"
Once more with feeling: no deal isn't an option, it's what happens when we run out of options.
Any referendum with more than two options would be a total fudge
It could be done with transferable vote although obviously would need some limits still.
Something like:
Maybots deal
Leave with no deal
Remain.
In some ways I think it would be needed otherwise the extremists would whinge they have been stitched up by only having maybots deal despite that being a harder brexit than most of them were promising in the past.
So we could get
32% Maybots deal
32% Leave with no deal
36% Remain
I am a remainer but I can see the problem with that one...
There are many ways to cope with multiple options/preferences in a vote. Our over reliance (in England) on FPTP and occasional exposure to the odd binary referendum has infantilised our idea of the voting element of democracy.
Having said that, having a “leave and we’ll work it out later” no deal option just allows politicians to paint multiple mutually exclusive pictures of what that means. Another referendum, whether binary or with multiple options, needs to include only options that can be properly scrutinised during the campaign, and enacted without further long delays and additional votes if it becomes the chosen option.
I am a remainer but I can see the problem with that one…
Ermm no. Thats round one now try round two.
Obviously not an ideal solution but the time for that was in 2016. currently this is trying to fit the parachute midair.
Any referendum with more than two options would be a total fudge, remain or leave (leave option being whatever deal can be agreed or no deal if one can’t be agreed – as is looking most likely)
Any referrendum with only 2 options is also a total fudge. The first referrendum was a TOTAL FUDGE.
I’ve said this several times now, but should we have another referendum the only sensible vote
would be on whatever leave terms we’ve agreed in the EU and in parliament vs scrapping the whole thing. Having multiple separate leave options would split the vote and wouldn’t be fair on leave voters. Essentially, a third referendum would be “this is what we’ve come up with, do you want it or not?”
Once more with feeling: no deal isn’t an option, it’s what happens when we run out of options.
To you or I it's not a viable option ... however to many leave voters it's become THE option ...
The more apparent it has become that there isn't a viable deal they voted for the more they have been led into No Deal as the preferred option and somehow believing that's what they voted for in the first place.
It’s beyond me why anyone would believe this
It is now a religion, to all intents and purposes. You cannot question religion. Or change it.
Latest surprise:
however to many leave voters it’s become THE option
Yes. Because, again as I've said before, most of them don't have the slightest grasp of what "no deal" actually means. And any attempt to explain it just gets projectfeared away.
Eg, we currently fly planes internationally because we have deals in place which allow us to do so. Out of the EU, we lose that. Now of course, I don't for a moment believe that we won't negotiate something to allow us to keep flying (and I think there's now a transitional agreement in place for the short term at least?), but that is ipso facto a "deal" of sorts meaning that "no deal" doesn't actually exist, it's no-deal-apart-from-the-bits-we-want-to-have-deals-on. As ever it's an oversimplification, May's "deal" (or whatever Boris ever pulls out of his arse) isn't actually a deal at all, it's a large collection of micro-deals.
Despite what they may say / think, nobody really, actually wants 'no deal' aside from a few morally bankrupt sociopaths who stand to become considerably wealthier than they already are and see the country burning as acceptable collateral damage.
oooph, shit just got real...
From the indie just now:
Angela Merkel, the German chancellor spoke to Boris Johnson this morning and told him a Brexit deal is “overwhelmingly unlikely”, a No 10 source has told the BBC.
The Downing Street source also said that Brexit negotiations in Brussels “are close to breaking down”.
“Merkel said that if Germany wanted to leave the EU they could do it no problem, but the UK cannot leave without leaving Northern Ireland behind in a customs union and in full alignment forever,” claimed the No 10 official, in remarks reported by Sky News.
“She said that Ireland is the government’s special problem and Ireland must at least have a veto on Northern Ireland leaving.
“Merkel said that the prime minister should tell Northern Ireland that it must stay in full alignment forever, but that even this would not eliminate customs issues.
“It was a very useful clarifying moment in all sorts of ways.”
ITV’s Robert Peston said: “Johnson will now go full steam ahead to a no-deal Brexit on 31 October. I would expect him to make a statement about all this later today.”
Whats BloJo gonna do, He legally has to request an extension, court case due later today too..
Can I paraphrase that Cougar?
"No Deal" Leave is now the complete absence of rationality and the substitution of magical thinking and cultism.
No Deal is just “we’ll tell you after we’ve left”… “trust us”…
So to avoid getting another extension, he's now going to throw a hand grenade into the negotiations and destroy our future relationship with our closest trading partner
This is all Cummings doing. Cameron was right. He's a ****ing psychopath!
Yup, the more damage the better… that’s his MO.
The pound won’t dive much really on this news, as Johnson not really seeking a realistic deal is already priced in… there are some possible significant events this month that could see it drop like a stone though… if parliament pulls its punches after the queens speech, and no deal at the end of the month goes up from 20% likelihood to 50:50 odds… the UK will be further dumped, and quickly.
All eyes on the waif and strafe MPs who aren’t happy with how their party has been transformed since 2016… if they decide to fall in behind Johnson… and go for a “repairing the damage after Brexit” narrative, or if more of them just quietly throw in the towel and stop voting and turning up to parliament, we’re collectively screwed.
So, foreign leaders have to call our PM and explain carefully why his plan is bobbins, when every commentator and every person with a dash of intelligence can see it.
We're being led by children.
Our shop lease is up soon. I'm going to act like a **** get us chucked out and tell Mrs zip that it's a great success.
Can I paraphrase that Cougar?
“No Deal” Leave is now the complete absence of rationality and the substitution of magical thinking and cultism.
Works for me. (-:
Rumors that Doms No 10's version of the phone call between BloJo and Merkel, has some heavy spin on it.
I wonder if the German government will release thier transcript of the pone call?
People can only support the Brexit that isn’t written down. Glib simplicities are welcome, detailed legal proposals are open to scrutiny and comparison to the existing arrangements, so must be avoided to keep Brexit alive. Great for campaigning (which is all Johnson has been doing for the last three years), rubbish for running a country and dealing with other countries.
mattyfez
Member
Rumors that...
Indeed. Just read Kuensberg’s (frankly irresponsible) tweet and the Deal or No Deal mentality loons have gone off on one...there’s a surprise.
For something a bit more balanced, here’s Tony Connelly’s take:
https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1181516491981803520?s=21
As much as I’d like to imagine Angela ditching all niceties and saying, “Look you fat ****ing mop-haired bitty sipping ****, here’s how it is son...”, she just doesn’t do things that way. She’s intensely diplomatic.
So, this is the end game for any type of deal. My assumption is now that the Benn Act will somehow be cicrumvented and we leave with no deal on the 31st October. At that point, things will get nasty as the reality of abrubt severance are felt. Both UK and EU will takes actions that are viewed with hostility by the other, in the UK the actions of the EU will be easily spun to galvanise enough public opinion that we were right to leave after all.
the other, in the UK the actions of the EU will be easily spun to galvanise enough public opinion that we were right to leave after all.
Are we as a nation really that dim?
bitty sipping
Excuse me for a moment, I need to go and empty the coffee out of my keyboard.
Are we as a nation really that dim?
Are you really that surprised?
The nation has been lapping up propaganda and spin for years. Sadly it's very easy to believe that a) that's what will happen and b) we'll all fall for it, again.
Are we as a nation really that dim?
We're about to find out...
Time for a People's Revolt- why are we all sitting here letting this happen?
Are we as a nation really that dim?
When a fair chunk of the population eat up whatever BS their chosen media feeds them, then yeah, probably.
Can I move to Ireland and earn citizenship if I don't have a grandparent on which to rely?
That really smells of total desperation to be honest.
Gunboat diplomacy. Oh wait, we have no gunboats.
Can I move to Ireland and earn citizenship if I don’t have a grandparent on which to rely?
I think you can like everyone else provided you have the skill sets they want.