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What he said.
Save your ire for those born to riches, have lived in many countries, have had the most expensive elite education … and generally have the world as their oyster … and have used the people who voted Leave to help their richest of friends further enrich themselves and to further their own king of the world play boy fantasies.
Maybe some empathy would be a better idea than getting out the pitchforks?
Posted 7 minutes ago
I agree, but have some discussions with leavers on twitter or facebook & it will soon descend into conspiracy theories, abuse and threats of violence, it becomes easy to consider leavers stupid
Franing the Benn act as 'surrender' definitely helps with that, even if you show them how its not surrendering control to the EU (its to parliament) Johnson knows exactly what he's doing & its poisoning the country
Soooo Johnson’s long gestating plan is some custom posts 5 miles either side of the border
Cos a customs post 5 miles away isn't a border post. Brilliant!
I agree, but have some discussions with leavers on twitter or facebook & it will soon descend into conspiracy theories, abuse and threats of violence, it becomes easy to consider leavers stupid
Of course it does. That's because people say stuff on the internet they wouldn't dare to say in real life, and also because in general humans find it impossible to admit they were wrong or tolerate dents to their pride. If I talk about brexit with leavers I ask questions about why they're pissed off, invariably that leads to them acknowledging that the problems are to do with UK policy not our EU membership, and I'll then leave it there in the hope it makes them think rather than press home the point that they were wrong. Obviously many leavers are lost causes, but even then the best thing to do is acknowledge their grievances but agree to disagree on the solution. The only ones I'll happily shout down are the overt racists or far right sympathisers, but thanfully I don't come across many of them.
My colleague, who's from South Armagh, has just listened to the proposals and noted the locations that would mean setting up customs infrastructure in... Crossmaglen, Newry, Bessbrook.
Good luck with that, Boris. I remember the enforcing of border controls in those areas went really, really well last time
Its quite terrifying the willful ignorance of these morons. They seem to have little or no interest in the feelings stirred up by this and even lesss interest about the potential consequences
Supermarkets / out of town shopping are only advantageous for those with cars.
Or internet connections, bus routes...
Many who are ignorant to the facts about brexit are not that way because of their own laziness, but because of their upbringing, education (or lack of), employment status, and other personal circumstances.
Pre-referendum I would have agreed with this. Hell, I was one of them.
However, having spent the intervening three years trying to educate myself and trying to help others along the same path only to be met with "project fear I'm not listening lalalala if you love the EU so much why don't you move there democracy sovereignty blue passports foreigners" I can only conclude that people still ignorant to the facts today is because they want to be. That's nothing to do with personal circumstance, it's simply wilful ignorance.
Does Johnson realise that border controls are to catch people doing stuff they shouldn't?
VAT scam? that'll be lane 4 please.
VAT-scam and Robbin' ?
That’s nothing to do with personal circumstance, it’s simply wilful ignorance.
You're assuming they've all been watching the news every day and discussing it with their mates and following every twist and turn. They haven't. They voted, then moved on to other things. That's what most people do with politics. 3 years later the only thing they understand is that they voted for something and the politicians haven't done what they promised. As I've said many times, this is a bigger issue to them than whether brexit is the right or wrong thing to do, and it reinforces whatever complaints they thought were valid before the referendum. So even if you come up with bullet-proof case that they made the wrong decision, they won't trust it now.
3 years later the only thing they understand is that they voted for something and the politicians haven’t done what they promised.
They're wrong about that too
Because the parties have done exactly what they said in their 2017 manifestos
It’s all very well you being so enlightened and comfortable with our cosmopolitan and outward looking place in the world, but would you disagree that this is enabled by your own personal circumstances? Many who are ignorant to the facts about brexit are not that way because of their own laziness, but because of their upbringing, education (or lack of), employment status, and other personal circumstances. Maybe some empathy would be a better idea than getting out the pitchforks?
We've had 3 years of this **** , there's no excuse for not being informed at this moment in time. I can understand those who got duped in the first ref as it was a persuasive, powerfully emotive argument for an exciting, different future and remain had nothing but dry facts and the status quo, but now???
Are leavers not seeing this message -
those born to riches, have lived in many countries, have had the most expensive elite education … and generally have the world as their oyster … and have used the people who voted Leave to help their richest of friends further enrich themselves and to further their own king of the world play boy fantasies
because as a "remainer", it's in my face 24/7.
Useful idiot doesn't even cover it if you're still a "leaver".
Because the parties have done exactly what they said in their 2017 manifestos
Cameron clearly promised that he would implement the result, and the other party leaders agreed that was the right thing to do. As much as we'd all like to deny this simple fact or get around it with 'it was only advisory' loopholes, I'm afraid it happened. I know how you all like clear messages, you hammer the labour party repeatedly for supposedly not having one, but there's nothing clearer than what Cameron said, and the leave voters understandably expect it to be honoured.
dazh:It’s all very well you being so enlightened and comfortable with our cosmopolitan and outward looking place in the world, but would you disagree that this is enabled by your own personal circumstances?
What does my personal circumstances have to do with calling out utter populist mass idiocy on a scale that will affect this country for years?. The brexit vote has already impinged upon my health due to a cancellation of a medical trial (secondary progressive ms) so don't get me ****ing started on personal circumstances.
taxi25
People think they earn more than their taxi driver.
Which makes sense ... or why would you pay for a taxi
- on a regular basis
Of course you have to pay tax, you have to pay a controller etc. and I have to pay you with money I paid tax on. You have to drive to where I am and then drive to the next pickup so your time must be correspondingly cheaper than I value my time to make this economic
- on a regular basis</ul.
Of course if 4 people split a taxi it's different.
You’re assuming they’ve all been watching the news every day and discussing it with their mates and following every twist and turn. They haven’t.
Not in my experience, they are watching every move every day. The main difference is they trust the Mail/Express/Right Wing think tanks. Everyone else is liar, or a fool who believes in lies.
Joris Bonsons border proposals have just been referred to by an EU negotiator who's seen them as 'a fairytale full of unicorns'
It looks increasingly like they're not remotely serious about a negotiated solution and are just running down the clock to a no-deal Brexit.
I don't doubt for a minute that between now and then we'll need to be ready for all manner of dubious stunts from Cummings to get us there
Joris Bonson (as Mrs Binners has now taken to calling him) was just interviewed on radio 4.
I was on the way to work with that on, it did not put me in a good frame of mind.
We're very clearly crashing out.
My favourite bit was when he said "This So called Surrender act". Eh? Hang on Boris, "So called" by you! ya twazzler! He isn't going to moderate himself anytime soon, it's just a game and so far he is winning...
His real genius (if you can call it that), is the ability to wind up the rhetoric and adopt just the right divisive, non-conciliatory phrase at just the right moment. He's try to keep everyone at each others throats right up until it's too late, that point is approaching fast...
so don’t get me **** started on personal circumstances
None of us have the right to criticise you for your many asterisks in that case. But, if you can, please stay angry with the wilful deceivers and seducers, not the wilfully deceived and seduced. It’s the only way out of this mess. We need more people to see what Johnson & Farage and others are up to, and to reject it, rather than have them focus on defending their own decision 3+ years ago.
and the other party leaders agreed that was the right thing to do
Do you mean “trigger A50 today” Corbyn? If so, perhaps even you can begin to see how he is complicit in getting us so far down this rabbit hole.
A very interesting take on the present state of the Tory Party (if that's what it even still is?) in this morning's Grauniad
The Tories have lost their ideology. Now they are merely the party of resentment
Do you mean “trigger A50 today” Corbyn?
Nope, I'm referring to the consensus there was in the referendum campaign among all leaders that the result should be implemented. Corbyn obviously got a bit excited with his knee jerk reaction and quickly railed back. I don't however remember any party leaders saying that the referendum was invalid or non-committal. If they did think that, then they should have boycotted it, then they would have firmer ground to stand on today.
Those party leaders were wrong to say that, but hey, most are now gone. Corbyn clings on. And just because “all the party leaders” talked nonsense 3+ years ago, that shouldn’t commit the rest of us to honour their foolish (or wilful) words. No one is bound to a damaging path just because political parties chose the wrong leaders after Cameron got his majority.
If Boris gets canned, will he still get a PM leaving honours list? Will we finally have a revolution if he tries to knight Cummings...?
I'm getting more and more frustrated with the BBC news coverage, in an effort to stay impartial they just play into Tory hands by not challenging them on the blindingly obvious underhand shenanigans they're pulling
I’m getting more and more frustrated with the BBC news coverage, in an effort to stay impartial they just play into Tory hands by not challenging them on the blindingly obvious underhand shenanigans they’re pulling
This morning’s was letting Johnson get away with “no one knows who drafted the surrender act” on the Today programme… despite the fact that they had earlier in the week spoken to people involved in drafting and checking the Benn act.
I am more than happy to leave the EU and fulfill the referendum as long as we are in the single market and retain freedom of movement.
That way everybody is happy.
Agreed.
Now, who’s proposing that?
I am more than happy to leave the EU and fulfill the referendum as long as we are in the single market and retain freedom of movement.
That way everybody is happy.
I would accept that as a compromise. It has the added bonus of the brexit MEPs losing their trough.
I am more than happy to leave the EU and fulfill the referendum as long as we are in the single market and retain freedom of movement.
You mean exactly what was promised, even by Farage, right up to the point where the leave campaign 'won', whereupon it rapidly morphed into something very, very different indeed?
Do they not still get a boat-load of money for pension and stuff?
dazh
You’re assuming they’ve all been watching the news every day and discussing it with their mates and following every twist and turn. They haven’t. They voted, then moved on to other things. That’s what most people do with politics. 3 years later the only thing they understand is that they voted for something and the politicians haven’t done what they promised. As I’ve said many times, this is a bigger issue to them than whether brexit is the right or wrong thing to do, and it reinforces whatever complaints they thought were valid before the referendum. So even if you come up with bullet-proof case that they made the wrong decision, they won’t trust it now.
Cameron clearly promised that he would implement the result, and the other party leaders agreed that was the right thing to do. As much as we’d all like to deny this simple fact or get around it with ‘it was only advisory’ loopholes, I’m afraid it happened. I know how you all like clear messages, you hammer the labour party repeatedly for supposedly not having one, but there’s nothing clearer than what Cameron said, and the leave voters understandably expect it to be honoured.
The first issue was the hubris that led to the first referendum question... the actual question was meaningless without leave and do what.
This was then compounded by May...and certainly not helped by Corbin either.
Brexit means Brexit ???
Both were too terrified of actually spelling it out and too preoccupied with party.
HOWEVER: A significant number of Brexit supporters receiving their social media daily and discussing what they see. Whether they see the news or not they will be receiving an interpretation of it laced with poison.
Kelvin : if you can, please stay angry with the wilful deceivers and seducers, not the wilfully deceived and seduced.
I'm not angry with brexit voters per-se, (not that much anyway...there are some who realise they were lied too and would now vote differently) but i'm bloody livid at the rabid brexit at all costs leave means leave i want out now i knew what i what i was voting for and i want no-deal this is the end of democracy yada....yadda....yadda type of brexit voters, Despite the overwhelming evidence that it will seriously damage the economy and the utter lies that the leave side used/continue to use still shout "I want my brexit".
I live in galloway so i guess we have the hope of independence and remaining at least, then again we do have that cockwomble Alister Jack as our MP but he'll be gone next election, he was in a friends restaurant a while ago with all his guffawing toadying tory ****ers spaffing over him after a local shoot and was offered quinoa as part of a starter, his reply was "Quinoa?, thats what lesbians and poofs eat". Other members of the shooting group were making reference to "****s" in jokes
Says it all eh?
People think they earn more than their taxi driver.
Which makes sense … or why would you pay for a taxi
Which makes no sense ?? Do you mean if the taxi driver makes more than you, then you shouldn't pay him 🤔🤔
“Quinoa?, thats what lesbians and poofs eat”
Not according to some movies I've seen on the internet.
It’s all very well you being so enlightened and comfortable with our cosmopolitan and outward looking place in the world, but would you disagree that this is enabled by your own personal circumstances? Many who are ignorant to the facts about brexit are not that way because of their own laziness, but because of their upbringing, education (or lack of), employment status, and other personal circumstances. Maybe some empathy would be a better idea than getting out the pitchforks?
perhaps or perhaps when someone has a pitchfork and is calling for you to be hanged (or more likely hung) or burned alive sometimes a pitchfork is a better response than pointing out why they are wrong then being hanged or burned alive.
I am more than happy to leave the EU and fulfill the referendum as long as we are in the single market and retain freedom of movement.
That way everybody is happy.
It wouldn't be my ideal choice, but I could live with it.
The downsides would be:
Westminster control over development funds - that's traditionally been bad for anyone not in the South East.
No control of the single market, or the regulations we'd have to conform to, to remain a member.
The real downside though, as a compromise it's no things, to no people - the Hard left won't like single market or freedom of movement because it doesn't allow them to "Protect UK Jobs and conditions" in the way they like. Eastern EU countries will still under-cut workers pay, Western EU will be more competitive inside the EU for our Services sector and people from poorer EU countries will drive down wages here.
The hard right won't like Freedom of movement will allow Muslims in and Sharia law in the UK (I can't pretend they aren't thick).
The Centre-Right Tories won't like it because regulations will hurt 'efficiency' aka their ability to do exploit and do evil for cash.
The centre-left might accept it, but really they / we know it's a daft compromise. No voice, all the rules.
Also, the EU won't let us in for free, we'll end up paying at least as much as we do now, in real terms.
Daz, you're as comfortable throwing around lazy stereotypes as those you accuse, but sadly you've fallen for the brexiter rethoric that remainers won't compromise, without asking why they should. Your approach of following meekly along delivering any kind of brexit that can be achieved won't solve any of the problems the disaffected suffer, and will be the equivalent of spraying petrol on the flames, whichever way brexit goes now. The break up of the nation, everyone poorer all around, except of course the lucky few. The only thing brexit achieves is swelling the ranks of the disaffected, the final humiliation of those you purport to represent.
So even if you come up with bullet-proof case that they made the wrong decision, they won’t trust it now
You say that as though such a case isn't plain. Is that what you think?
Whatever, it's not that they won't trust it, they'll never take any interest in it. As you note, they've voted, now just want it done, and hang the expense.
Fortunately there are still some who are actively trying to steer us off the rocks, who are prepared to push back at the wreakers, and prevent disaster. I'm not holding my breath any more however.
but i’m bloody livid at the rabid brexit at all costs leave means leave i want out now i knew what i what i was voting for and i want no-deal this is the end of democracy yada….yadda….yadda
Not going to disagree with you on the rabid UKIP/brexit party goons, but I'm certain they're in the minority of leave voters and have a vastly disproportionate representation in the MSM and social media. The great majority of leavers are driven by a mixture of hopelessness and nostalgia.
It's indicative of how low we've gone in this country over the past 40 years that many people feel so angry they're willing to vote against their best interests in a desperate attempt to shake up the status quo. They very rarely get a chance to directly change things so it's understandable that they took they chance when it was presented to them.
Calling leaver voters names, patronising them, or dismissing their grievances only sends them into the hands of the nutters. The only way to avoid the no deal nightmare (either now or in the future), is to change their minds, it always has been.
You’re assuming they’ve all been watching the news every day and discussing it with their mates and following every twist and turn. They haven’t. They voted, then moved on to other things. That’s what most people do with politics.
Who exactly are you referring to as "they" here?
"They" being the bulk of the electorate, sure, absolutely right. But "they" aren't the ones on social media ranting and raving all day, that's an entirely different "they," and if they are so passionate about it then they should take their bloody fingers out of their ears and read some words.
If you're going to vociferously argue about a subject, you really should take some time to research that subject first. If you don't and instead steadfastly dismiss anything you don't want to be believed, well, it should come as no shock when people call you names.
there’s nothing clearer than what Cameron said, and the leave voters understandably expect it to be honoured.
That was in the same breath as saying he would see it through, before running away the day afterwards. Why is no-one holding that to account? Any promises Cameron may have made went with him that day.
They might expect it to be honoured, sure. But we should manage those expectations rather than go "oh, OK then."
dismissing their grievances
Funny how you should latch on to this in the last couple of pages when it's exactly what I've been telling you we should do for months.
We should absolutely listen to their grievances and do something about it. But brexit won't solve the vast majority of their grievances, indeed it will almost certainly compound them. Giving them what they think they want is irresponsible and would be doing them a disservice.
taxi25
Which makes no sense ?? Do you mean if the taxi driver makes more than you, then you shouldn’t pay him
No I mean if I pay someone more than my time is worth to do something I could do myself
-
on a regular basis
then I should do it myself. Nothing specific to Taxi's.... could be cutting the hedge or bleeding brakes, servicing a fork or fixing a dripping tap.
I don't care what you earn, I only care if that service is financially viable. Your costs are what they are... but we both pay tax and NI so most services are going to mean unless the person paying for a service takes home more per hour than the person doing the service has to charge then its cheaper to do it myself.
What you actually earn is irrelevant to me as is what I earn ... what is relevant is how much I earn/hour AFTER tax and NI vs what I have to pay for a service.
Since we are both paying tax and NI that means I need to be paid gross/hr more than the cost.
Lets take Cougar's plumber... £35-£50 for the first hour for a dripping tap .. out of which the plumber has to drive, pay tax and NI .. turn up and do a 15 min job but quite fairly charges for an hour of their time.
The plumber then has to pay Tax and NI... so if you call them out unless it saves you £50 worth of earning time after you paid for tax, NI, fuel and controller you would be financially better doing it yourself.
Quite simply would you take home more in 15 mins than the plumber charges to fix the dripping tap.
If the answer is yes then you can work 15 mins longer and pay a plumber and its economically viable... if not then you'd be better knocking off 15 mins earlier and just fixing it yourself.
The same thing goes for someone making your sandwiches or cuppa....
Lets say a cuppa costs 5p to make and takes 2 mins... but they charge £2.55 at McBucksCosta or wherever... that service is costing £75/hour... of post tax earnings.
Of course it's nice every so often to get a treat but if you buy one before work and one on the way home that's £25/wk wasted. I believe these places charge even more.
Please note: That doesn't mean I think the taxi is a rip off or the coffee shop is a rip-off... or Cougar's plumber is a rip off for that matter. They all have their own costs. I know many of the independent cafe's go bust when Star-Costa opens up.... just like a LBS and competing with CRC/Wiggle etc. they have high street costs, utilities etc.
Why are so many people are dis-satisfied with our European/UK life... IMHO because they think they have a right to all these services... or the immigrants are undercutting ??? What seems to be missing is the immigrant is walking to work and not buying expensive beverages or a prepared lunch that we seem to have adopted as a "I was born in a wealthy country right".
If the answer is yes then you can work 15 mins longer and pay a plumber and its economically viable…
Unless...you don't get paid by the hour and working 15 minutes later won't earn you any extra money
if not then you’d be better knocking off 15 mins earlier and just fixing it yourself.
Do you have the skills to do the same job as a trained professional, to the same standard, in the same amount of time? If not, you might want to take the whole afternoon off.
Unless…you don’t get paid by the hour and working 15 minutes later won’t earn you any extra money
Do you have the skills to do the same job as a trained professional, to the same standard, in the same amount of time? If not, you might want to take the whole afternoon off.
The first one is a bit of a red herring... it's either worth it to you or not.
If i scrimp and save this month I might have £50 and a dripping tap and some forks need new bushings and complete service... do I buy 20 cups of tea at £2.50, pay for the plumber or pay for a full service kit for my forks?
the second...I guess depends what the job is as it if it needs a trained professional..
If its a dropping tap I don't need to do it in the same time as I conveniently live at home... I can replace a pair of taps for £20, let alone change a washer. The time to drain takes the same time regardless of who turns the stop cock .. it won't empty quicker just because a qualified plumber turns it off... still the plumber is still cheaper at £50/hr than making a cup of tea at £75/hr
Making a sandwich or cup of tea ... I might be missing something but missing why this is a job for a trained professional? 😉
Doing a full fork service ... I'm sure I'm way slower and they cost way less per hour than the person making tea after you take away the cost of a service kit. They also have a better selection of tools than I have... However a significant part of the cost is the courier so its rarely worth sending a single item. Basic aircan/lowers clean and new oil??? Not worth the courier.
Fixing a broken boiler ... I'd reckon £50/hr can be a bargain... so back to my £50... I'll repair the tap not buy any cuppa's out for 2 months and send my forks to a professional.
I don't it's quite that simple.
Price isn't about value, but rather perceived value. At a base level, of course a service has to turn a profit. But that's not necessarily proportional to the cost.
I'm fairly confident that [insert coffee shop chain here] will know to the penny exactly how much it costs them to serve a cup of coffee, from raw ingredients to barista wages to rent of the building etc. In order to stay in business, they need to sell products higher than that base cost overall (they may sell some things at a loss even, in order to increase footfall - supermarkets are masters at this, you go in for a 99p litre of milk and come out with a 42" TV, or places like McDs who entice you in with a 99p cheeseburger knowing that the markup on soft drinks is insane).
BUT the reason they charge three quid for a cup of Joe is because they know people are willing to pay it. Their pricing will be a science, driving the maximum profit from their products. Put prices up, you get more per unit but will probably sell fewer units, it's a balancing act and I guarantee that Starbucks et al will have this calculated with astonishing precision.
Back to the plumber. £50 for a call out is a lot of money, but if every other plumber in the area is charging the same, what are you going to do?
I was sitting chatting to the dutch part of my family over the weekend - after walking around a lovely dutch town.
I have decided I am really really angry about all the brexshit nonsense. I am a european. these brexiteer shits do not speak for me or for my country.
Arrgghhhhhh!
Back to the plumber. £50 for a call out is a lot of money, but if every other plumber in the area is charging the same, what are you going to do?
I don't think that's a lot of money and I'm far from wealthy.
Opportunity costs and all.
No I mean if I pay someone more than my time is worth to do something I could do myself
Sorry yes that's perfectly sensible 👍