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Swindleson is a flat out opportunist.
She really has got you worried then.
Jo Swinson is in a great position simply by not being Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn
A million times this. And the blame for that lies squarely with Corbyn and Johnson themselves.
Stop Brexit, stop spending our money on Brexit preparation, free parliamentarians, civil servants, businesses and workers to get on with the stuff that matters.
As well as averting the economic nosedive that will follow. Any form of Brexit is economically damaging - sorry to be absolutist here, but Brexit will kill dead any policy intentions as the damage will make them impossible to fund.
If Swinson was serious about stopping brexit she would be working with labour not making co operation more difficult. She would rather a tory no deal brexit than work with labour.
However if stopping brexit is her number one priority as she has claimed then her actions mean that by chasing votes she makes brexit more likely.
You keep saying that but have yet to show your working.
How is it splitting the remain vote by only working with parties with a clear commitment to remaining? She's not chasing the Lexit/Northern Labour Brexit voters so why shouldn't they campaign on a clear remain ticket in those seats? Otherwise they would be leaving voters with a choice of which colour of shite they want in their brexit sandwich. If you want to point the blame in the right direction it's fence sitting Labour you should be looking at.
On SNP coalitions yes you're right at Westminster level but in 2010 they gave Murdoch a great stick to beat Labour with when they said they would work with them in a possible government.
Nope _ I am right about ruling out coalitions. I have no idea what you are talking about "Obviously apart from the first SNP minority govt led by Salmon, when they went to the SDP to form a deal, when that didn’t work, and went for minority rule with a supply and confidence from the Scottish Greens…Apart from that, you mean, right?"
There are and never have been any SDP members in the scottish parliament I guess you mean SSP
No coalition was ever attempted. There was not even a S&C deal with the greens in the end. S&C deals were looked at but none ever formed.
The SNP policy for a long time is to reject any coalition at westminster. It would be grossly hypocritical to do so. That ITV report does not say she would be willing to go into coalition. Sturgeon states SNP policy which is to work with other progressive parties. Many times SNP policy has been stated. No coalitions at westminster.
TJ see my ninja edit above. I know that wasn't aimed at me but I used the wrong word.
If Swinson was serious about stopping brexit she would be working with labour not making co operation more difficult.
Difficult to work with someone when they can't/won't tell you or anyone else what it is they really want - isn't it?
She would rather a tory no deal brexit than work with labour.
Source/citation/evidence?
Anyway... getting back to today's most pressing and important issue - slagging off the lib dems the supreme court case today against Johnson.
It's of huge significance, this. The stakes are enormous. If the supreme court deems this as legal, then I feel pretty much certain that Cummings will extend the prorogation into November so Parliament can't sit until after a no-deal crash out. I thik this present government are actually mental enough to do this
And the implications of that really don't bear thinking about.
squirrellking - her grandstanding has made co operation with labour more difficult and only by co operation with labour can brexit be stopped
I cannot find the quote now but when asked what was more important to her stopping brexit or maximising lib dem mps she made it clear that maximising lib dem mps was more important to her
So for all her bluster its obvious that she is not doing everything she can to stop brexit - she is doing everything she can to maximise lib dem mps even if that makes brexit more likely
I said nothing about splitting the vote - what she has done is to make a anti no deal alliance almost impossible.
If Corbyn was serious about stopping brexit he would be working with Jo Swinson not making co operation more difficult. He would rather a tory no deal brexit than work with the Lib Dem’s.
She would rather a tory no deal brexit than work with labour.
Did you notice the bit where she's been working with Labour in the past month to avert No Deal?
None of the main parties will openly offer themselves up for a coalition before a GE, because they want to use their individual differences to maximise vote share. Which is why you have the typical LibDem fantasy policy position of 'we'll revoke A50 if we have a majority', which of course, they will never achieve. They just want votes from those who support outright revocation, which in turn would increase their MP count and potential leverage. If they blended themselves in with Labour's more muddled position from the start, they would undoubtedly lose votes.
After election night, as in 2010, deals will be done, just as Boris will go crawling to Farage if necessary. As you say, the SNP will never enter a formal coalition, which would involve placing SNP ministers at Westminster, but they will offer a confidence and supply arrangement if it advances their agenda, in a similar manner to the DUP.
Aye Binners - gong to be very interesting. there is good reason whythe scots judges found it illegal - under scots law there are differences in the relationships between government, the people and the crown compared to England - so it could be illegal under scots law but not under english.
Cummings does not have the power to extend the prorogation. However somewhere they think they have a loophole. fortunately all the brains and knowledge of parliamentary procedures are not on Johnsons side
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of it, the public will not vote Labour in sufficient numbers while Corbyn is leader. The best thing that he could do to stop Brexit is hand over to someone else. But he is not going to do so as Brexit is very much his goal. Whatever you think of Swinson, she knows this too.
If Swinson was serious about stopping brexit she would be working with labour not making co operation more difficult. She would rather a tory no deal brexit than work with labour.
Whilst I agree the LibDem position is more about securing as many seats as possible in the next GE rather than securing Remain it's also Labour's (JC's) fault for still having an obscure policy that the Lib Dems can't work with them. Sure Labour have clarified they'd hold a 2nd referendum if they had a majority government but I'm still not sure what position they'd been campaigning on the side of in the referendum, JC still seems very attached to his Brexit deal unicorns.
So committed Remainers are faced with a choice of voting for party that have no chance of being elected (as a majority government) but are clear on remaining or a party that has a slim chance of being elected but might end up convincing enough muppets that they can get a deal done if people vote for Brexit a second time (or possibly just piss away another year trying to get a better deal agreed before a referendum whilst we continue to languish in uncertainty). Not much of a choice really.
Apologies TJagain, I meant SLD; fingers slipped. I'm surprised you don't remember the attempt at coalition, (ruled out by the SLD as it happens)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2007/may/08/scotland.devolution2
Mr Salmond and his deputy, Nicola Sturgeon, tried again early yesterday to coax the Lib Dems into accepting yet another olive branch: to put their intense disagreements on an independence referendum aside while trying to agree common ground on domestic policies.
I wouldn’t bother. The small parties can promise the moon on the stick safe in the knowledge they will only be in power as a partner and can drop all the expensive stuff form their manifesto. So a small party manifesto will always be full on pork barrel and means nothing.
In contrast I think a commitment to revoke and remain does mean something. Maybe they’ll have to compromise but they can’t reasonably assist Brexit which is significant if they hold the balance of power.
Now there's a funny thing ...The LibDem proposed manifesto seem's to have brought out an illustration of how little the electorate actually understand/understand of the UK parliamentary democracy.
I know this is used by smaller parties so they can promise the earth but it got me thinking that this is something that Leave has really mastered the exploitation of.
The amount of vitriol labour supporters are spouting about the libdems suggests to me they are worried about being totally obliterated in a GE, if you really support remain then forget Labour & vote libdem, it really is that simple 👍 you can call me yellow tory all you like, its better than being branded a leaver coz you voted Labour in 2017.
And with achingly weary predictability...
Minister refuses to rule out Boris Johnson suspending parliament again
As Joe Moor, director of legislative affairs at Downing Street when Theresa May was prime minister, explained in an article in the Sunday Telegraph two days ago, if the government wins the supreme court case starting today, it would be possible for Johnson to suspend parliament again after it returns on 14 October, at least until 6 November.
I'd stick my house on them doing precisely that if they win today. They really don't give a flying * about democracy, or anything else, as long as they get to do what they want, the six-toed, born-to-rule pony-*ers
They're literally crashing us out with no deal, and suspending democracy to do so. In the space of 3 years, what on earth has this country become?
if you really support remain then forget Labour & vote libdem, it really is that simple
It really isn't: as was pointed out above, the Lib Dems can promise whatever they like, they're not going to be the next government. I'm struggling to see why a remainer would have a problem with Labour's promise to hold a second referendum - wasn't that what everyone was badgering them to do?
It really isn’t: as was pointed out above, the Lib Dems can promise whatever they like, they’re not going to be the next government.
Absolutely. And l for one will take great pleasure in seeing them obliterated in the next General Election. Jo Swinson is a disgrace.
I’m struggling to see why a remainer would have a problem with Labour’s promise to hold a second referendum – wasn’t that what everyone was badgering them to do?
As above. I think there's a doubt about Labour getting a majority in the first place due to the "Corbyn effect". That'll split the vote. In some cases, LD might be the better option if you are anti-Tory, but that leads down the path of coalition.
I’m struggling to see why a remainer would have a problem with Labour’s promise to hold a second referendum – wasn’t that what everyone was badgering them to do?
Because any referendum should be an informed referendum. It shouldn't be down to heresay and deals not yet done.
It's also pretty unclear HOW that should take place.
For example ... there could be preferential voting on stay, remain with deal or leave no deal, which would end up with a "leave with deal" even if "stay" had a huge majority as 1st choice
Even thinking it's acceptable to leave if a majority voted remain as 1st choice this simply brings us back to the same place... what does the deal mean and inevitably Brexiters then complaining it's not EVERYTHING they voted for...
Nickc - that was NOT an attempt at coalition! Coalition and S&C are not the same thing! anyway as I made clear I was reffering to coalitions at Westminster - which the SNP have ruled out.
the only coalition in Holyrood was the labour / lib dem one!
Sure Labour have clarified they’d hold a 2nd referendum if they had a majority government but I’m still not sure what position they’d been campaigning on the side of in the referendum
Why does it matter what side they campaign on? The point is to have a referendum where the brexiteers cant promise all things to all people but instead have to stick to the actual rules (okay so thats a bit of a dream and the arseholes will still lie but its a bit of progress).
Indeed in many ways would want them to be in favour of leaving in order to try and get the best possible deal to put against the remain option.
if you really support remain then forget Labour & vote libdem, it really is that simple
Like so many things which is proclaimed to be simple its also wrong.
Seems I've missed a lot...
On Ernie's excellent point, I'd add that as well as a lack of self-awareness, the main thing middle class remainers (yes, it's a generalisation, but this is a forum and no one wants to read a non-generalised 5000 word essay) are guilty of is extreme hubris. We saw it before the referendum, and I see it everywhere now, among my mates, people at work and elsewhere. Except now that hubris is not manifested in an assumption that they will win the referendum, but in a lofty dismissal of the concerns of people who voted to leave, and barely concealed glee that brexit is turning out to be as difficult and chaotic as everyone expected it to be. What they don't realise though is that this is only making a no deal exit more likely, either now or in the future after the brexiteers regroup and win a future election.
On Swinson, IMO she's once again massively shot herself in the foot like she did when she refused to talk to Corbyn about options for stopping no deal. She's a crass opportunist (and not a very good one at that), and I'm now convinced she doesnt give a flying **** about stopping brexit and is instead only interested in her own short term political ambitions. She clearly sees herself filling the one nation tory void that Johnson and his cronies have created. The problem for her is that the tory libdem entryists twill run rings around her, and she'll be gone before she knows it.
As far as the labour party go, Swinson has provided a massive opportunity to Corbyn. Labour are now the only party left offering a sensible, pragmatic, and dare I say it, grown up approach not just to brexit but everything else that people are concerned about. The brexit obsessives on the no deal and revoke extremes of the argument are blind to the fact that most people in the country are sick of it and want their politicians to start solving the real problems they see in front of them every day. Labour are the only party doing that, and the only one which has a programme beyond brexit. If they play the next few months right, Corbyn could well be PM with an outright majority.
Oh my aching sides
As above. I think there’s a doubt about Labour getting a majority in the first place due to the “Corbyn effect”.
They may not do. But a referendum gives the LDs and SNP what they said they wanted. It seems to me that every time Labour proposess something remainers claim to want, the goalposts are shifted.
Because any referendum should be an informed referendum. It shouldn’t be down to heresay and deals not yet done.
I don't really know what you mean by that: weren't they saying that they would negotiate a deal before putting it to a vote?
Oh the court live feed is fun. Shame its going to take 3 days to play out. Looking likely its easy to show that the prorogation was done to stifle debate so Johnsons only hope is that the court decides its not justicable ie not the realm of the court to decide - but that would fly in the face of the scottish judgement which shows under Scots law there is more accountablity to the courts
They may not do. But a referendum gives the LDs and SNP what they said they wanted. It seems to me that every time Labour proposess something remainers claim to want, the goalposts are shifted.
Not by me. Of course I'd like to see Labour come out as Remain but the promise of a referendum is what I wanted from them.
and barely concealed glee that brexit is turning out to be as difficult and chaotic as everyone expected it to be.
You seriously think that anyone but the most hardline far-right nut jobs are taking even the slightest shred of enjoyment or gratification out of this?
Seriously?
I'd love to be wrong. Given where we are now, I'd love this to have been the easiest trade deal ever. I'd love to be staring, blinking at the sunlit uplands.
We're not though, are we? We're in the middle of a totally self-inflicted, completely unnecessary shitstorm, completely at the behest of a small bunch of far-right (and, as it turns out, far left) headbangers
Unfortunately, a sense of 'I told you so' isn't going to pay the bills when the economy goes tits up. Or get medication to people who need it. Or stop them tearing up the postwar settlement once and for all and turning us into a miserable, subservient little satellite of the US
So if that's what you seriously believe then maybe it's you who might want to check your own middle-class entitlement?
The end result of Disaster Socialism will be the same as the end result from Disaster Capitalism for the vast majority of people.
That's why Corbyn and Johnson can both **** right off! I'm sure that a lot of people, just like me, have had more than our fill of ideological extremists and where they tend to take you. Hence a lot of people looking to the Lib Dems to try and restore a bit of sanity to our countries politics. Because it left the room with both parties over 3 years ago, and I've had enough!
The production of a witness statement from the prime minister, or indeed anyone else, setting out the reasons for advising on a prorogation as long as five weeks would have had legal consequences.
The legal consequences of such a witness statement would have been, almost inevitably, an application to cross examine.
The legal consequences would be that it would be a contempt of court, of course, for such a witness statement not to tell the truth.
Our submission is that the documents [before the court] pose more questions than they answer, as the inner house [of the court of session in Scotland] has pointed out, and in any event the production of those documents is no substitute for evidence from the prime minister or someone on his behalf stating to the court in terms why he thought prorogation for the exceptionally long period of five weeks.
Hard to answer that isn't it Johnson!
ideological extremists
Oh give over. Labour party policies are no more extreme than standard northern european centre left social democracy that would barely raise an eyebrow in Germany or Denmark.
Hence a lot of people looking to the Lib Dems to try and restore a bit of sanity to our countries politics.
I suppose you missed the interview with Swinson yesterday advocating the continuation of austerity? Even the bloody tories have abandoned that failed policy.
https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1173683755116052480?s=20
Yup - she mains completely unapologetic about her role in supporting a vile tory government that did so much damage for so little result
Its amazing how panicked the Lib Dems have got Labour
this clip says nothing
we know they wont win a majority, they know they wont win a majority, but they will eat into labour votes
fact is tough choices will have to be made, taxes do need to rise to support the the type of social care, welfare, NHS etc we want to have, shes absolutely right
Its amazing how panicked the Lib Dems have got Labour
Or alternatively its amazing how amazed some people are that after relentless attacks on Labour by the Libdems that some Labour supporters are being critical back and pointing out inconvenient details like Swinson and co are actually pretty ideologically extreme.
Isn't 'Liberal Extremist' an oxymoron?
like Swinson and co are actually pretty ideologically extreme
in what way does that clip show theyre extreme?
saying we will in our manifesto tackle the tough choices of spending & taxation is about as tepid as you can get
whipping it into austerity on steroids, when it clearly isnt- thats extreme
Isn’t ‘Liberal Extremist’ an oxymoron?
Not if you’re a deluded but desperate Corbynite, with the reality that he’s toxic to a massive part of the electorate and that your Lexiteer dream has been hijacked while you watered your tomatoes and had debates dawning on you. Chalk it up there with “wannabe culture warriors”, “remain extremists” and the EU being “virtually indistinguishable from a dictatorship”...amongst many other shit-nuggets.
Isn’t ‘Liberal Extremist’ an oxymoron?
Ah I hate to break it to you Binners but you do realise that names organisations choose dont always reflect the truth. Hence why we have the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.
Within Liberalism you have various strands. Take US vs Australian usages of the word. Both would tend to consider the other on the more extreme side.
Within the UK tradition most liberals nowadays would tend to consider the neo-classical liberals of the 19th century a tad extreme.
Its amazing how panicked the Lib Dems have got Labour
And right on cue ernie makes a reappearance and dazh & rone pipe up too.
The vitriol in daz's post especially makes me think that he, at least, is rattled...
in what way does that clip show theyre extreme?
Sorry I didnt realise we were only allowed to judge based on a single clip.
Swinson and co are actually pretty ideologically extreme.
Care to list their extreme policies, dissonance?
It seems a point I've been making for a while is sinking in:
The assumption that the EU27 leaders are naive and stupid and will let Britian get away with fiscal dumping, social dumping, money laundering etc. is false. And the EU27 are getting weary of Britain trying to take the piss.
A few pages back I said my personal hopes on the outcome had evolved and were first remain and second a no deal Brexit. Given the damage Britian could do to the EU from within I'm now on the fence betwen the two and have no real preference between remain and no deal.
I wouldn’t bother. The small parties can promise the moon on the stick safe in the knowledge they will only be in power as a partner and can drop all the expensive stuff form their manifesto.
Same applies to the "major parties". Quite often manifesto "pledges" are dropped. I was referring to what might be in the LibDem manifesto which could turn me away from them since you seem to suggest they have some poisonous policies.
we know they wont win a majority, they know they wont win a majority, but they will eat into labour votes
Tory votes too I would say.
I’m struggling to see why a remainer would have a problem with Labour’s promise to hold a second referendum – wasn’t that what everyone was badgering them to do?
2nd ref is second best. I'm a staunch Revoker.
if you really support remain then forget Labour & vote libdem, it really is that simple
Not really. I'm a LibDem supporter in a Tory/LibDem marginal so it's obvious which way I'll vote. However, if the choice was Tory/Labour, I would vote Labour - being the best way of reducing tory seats and reducing the chance of no deal/increasing the chance of 2nd ref/revoke. I'm not usually a tactical voter but the current situation requires a certain pragmatism. I would urge others who are anti-Tory/anti-Brexit to consider the same approach. Vote for who has the best chance of reducing Tory seats.
Because any referendum should be an informed referendum. It shouldn’t be down to heresay and deals not yet done.
I don’t really know what you mean by that: weren’t they saying that they would negotiate a deal before putting it to a vote?
Regarding deals... there is one deal. There only ever has been a possibility of this one deal with minor variations on it. Those variations are not and won't ever be acceptable to anyone who wants to leave the EU simply because they hate the idea of the EU from pure ideology.
However the heresay is probably as or more important... so I'd rather just defer the whole thing until AFTER Turkey have become full members which I guess is only a couple of months away? Or perhaps just acknowledge Boris was just lying...
The vitriol
???
I’m struggling to see why a remainer would have a problem with Labour’s promise to hold a second referendum
Because referendum doesn't achieve remain:
1) A second ref only ends this conclusively if Leave win again. If Remain win we go to best of three/five.
2) Alan Johnson (head of Labour's EU Remain campaign) reckons Leave will easily win a second referendum on a "We told you once" ticket. Clear simple message that avoids the need to even debate Europe. He's right.
3) The result of any referendum will be about 50/50 We know that. Whatever the result is won't be conclusive.
It's not a solution from a remainer POV.
The fact that long term Brexiteers Corbyn/McDOnnell/Abbot are prepared to offer a referendum tells you it's highly likely to result in Brexit.