Forum menu
Predictably what I posted has been extensively misrepresented, and all sorts of disingenuous and false claims alleging what I said made. Which I have to admit I find somewhat reassuring – no one does that if they have a better way to counter your argument.
Also predictably some people feel insulted by my comments, which of course goes back to my point of lack of self-awareness. I had barely hit the send button before the first insult came flying. Anyone with an opposing point of view is dismissed as stupid/racist/talking bollocks/etc.
And equally predictably you then play the man rather than the ball with any replies you get. I almost didn't reply to your post in anticipation of you doing exactly that, because we've been here before.
You complain about insults whilst simultaneously insulting people, then in your next post you complain about people who are complaining about your insults, but at no point did you take the time to respond to any points made or questions posed in the interim.
Do you want to have a discussion, or do you just want to win a high school debating competition?
Oh good, it’s left wing apology for Putin’s military authoritarianism time. Would be wise for the rest of us to back out of the thread and leave them to it…
Hope that wasn't aimed at me, lol!
Personally I'm very centrist, maybe slightly Liberal and slightly right if pressed, but over and above that I belive that any situation calls for a customised considered and fair approach for the better of all people, regardless, depending on the particular nuance of a particular scenario.
Cold hard lines sticking to strict philosophy from any tribe or political ideology is a bad thing.
Like the UK for example, we've had an uncomfortable compromise between capitalism and socialism for a long time.
Neither is one solution for all. It's all about overall balance and fairness.
It wasn’t aimed at you… and I removed the Left Wing bit because it didn’t really apply to anyone involved… well, compared to myself.
Labor currently seem to be left wing authoritarians, the Conservatives are right wing authoritarians.. Two cheeks of the same smelly bum hole.
There’s a “nationalist>supranational” axis don’t forget … and of course all sane politicians are for a mix of both, just with different prioritisation. Just like the other political axes.
No worries Kelvin.. Wasn't sure.
Swinson on the other hand seems to be trying to be authoritarian and Liberal at the same time.. Maybe she's a lot more astute than I..
My argument is.. Why pick a stance and set it in stone, a unique stance is required for any unique situation, because all situations are unique in one way or another.
Dunno what I'm trying to say really, just that I'm sick of people in general subscribing to strict ideals in all circumstances when different ideals in certain scenarios are far better.
Why pick a stance and set it in stone
Totems for campaigners and voters to group around, and to differentiate them from others.
Also to use as leverage to move the positions of other parties. In many ways it stinks of a calculated unprincipled move… but I think it is informed by how politics has been working for the last decade, and by what seems to work.
What is really winding up the old school ‘donkey jacket’ Labour people is that their Momentum movement seemed so clever at the time. Ditch the middle ground, back to the class war, run up the red flag etc.
But Brexit has screwed all that because, at the end of the day, the ‘Labour heartlands’ voted for Brexit (a hard right policy) out of good old self interest and xenophobia, with a good dollop of racism chucked in. Bang went the dreams of going back to dusty school halls and debating the future of capitalism and who was first against the wall come the revolution. Idealism? Out of the window when the opportunity arose. The Momentum movement worked well on a stage at a festival, but not so much when faced with the stark reality of the inner motivations of the core voters.
Now they are shitting themselves because Corbyn has tried to walk both sides of the street for so long that the country at large think he’s basically a twunt. An easy target for the gutter press too. All his own doing.
Along come the LibDems with a definitive and absolute policy. It should not have come as a surprise. Cable couldn’t say the word ‘Brexit’ without the accompanying word ‘nonsense’ in the same sentence. Opportunist of the LibDems? Probably. But right now, they are the only party I can vote for.
It is Labour’s own fault that they chose this moment of national crack up to accidentally elect a nationally unelectable leader. As with most of Brexit, this would be hilarious if it was happening somewhere else.
But it isn’t. We are left being dragged towards disaster by an unelected cockwomble with no majority whilst the official opposition go MIA.
****ing brilliant.
Cable couldn’t say the word ‘Brexit’ without the accompanying word ‘nonsense’ in the same sentence.
Straight after the referendum, he was all up for sitting back and letting others get on with implementing Brexit. But then he went on to lead the LibDems, and LibDem leaders have to put up with open votes on policy. So he was dragged into opposing Brexit at first… which is one of the reasons his media performances were so weak as leader, until right near the end of his time.
Judge them by their actions and their words. 20 years ago the lib dems were well to the left of labour and the SNP – they are now well to the right and almost indistinguishable from the tories of 20+ years ago. Illiberal, right wing, free marketeers, low tax, low benefits, privatise the NHS, anti equal rights.
Well I'll be sure to check out all that stuff in their manifesto before the next election and compare it with the other parties.
Why pick a stance and set it in stone, a unique stance is required for any unique situation, because all situations are unique in one way or another.
I.think they are doing a farage, his clear brexit policy has galvanised the leave vote, in response the Tories are dancing to his tune.
I doubt for a minute Swinson believes libdems will win a GE outright, but their position as the party of remain gives voters a clear choice & gives them leverage against Labour
Imho brexit should be stopped by a 2nd ref but that will only happen if Labour are forced to back one & back remain.
Tj said of the lib dems..
privatise the NHS, anti equal rights
Think he's had too much to drink today? Lol
Well I’ll be sure to check out all that stuff in their manifesto before the next election and compare it with the other parties.
I wouldn't bother. The small parties can promise the moon on the stick safe in the knowledge they will only be in power as a partner and can drop all the expensive stuff form their manifesto. So a small party manifesto will always be full on pork barrel and means nothing.
In contrast I think a commitment to revoke and remain does mean something. Maybe they'll have to compromise but they can't reasonably assist Brexit which is significant if they hold the balance of power.
I.think they are doing a farage, his clear brexit policy has galvanised the leave vote, in response the Tories are dancing to his tune.
I doubt for a minute Swinson believes libdems will win a GE outright, but their position as the party of remain gives voters a clear choice & gives them leverage against Labour
Imho brexit should be stopped by a 2nd ref but that will only happen if Labour are forced to back one & back remain.
I think you might well be correct.
We just need labour to decide what side of the fence they are on.
It's all well and good some people suggesting the libs should get behind labour, but they seem to be playing the ambiguity card with potential political allies.. Again.. Compromise it seems, is not what a corbyn lead labour is about. He's a left winger, granted but he's also an authoritarian.
Cougar Subscriber
You complain about insults
My apologies if that's how it came across, it wasn't my intention. I am perfectly relaxed about receiving insults. My comment was based purely on behavioural observation.
but at no point did you take the time to respond to any points made or questions posed in the interim.
Do you want to have a discussion, or do you just want to win a high school debating competition?
Erm no, I don't want to win a debate.
Thanks for that info squirrelking.
Mr Van Rompuy was probably operating on the assumption, as most of the world does, that Scotland is a subordinate of England.
I suspect most high level figures in the EU have by now been made aware that Scotland is a country in an international treaty with England to form the UK, and not a subordinate or a possession.
The Scottish govt has been pretty busy with EU [s]diplomacy[/s] trade missions over the last few years.
That's what really pisses me off.
I'm technically British, but I'm half Welsh, 1/4 English 1/4 Irish so I could get Irish citizenship.
But why? Because a bunch of super rich tossers don't want to pay tax?
I'm a British European for gods sake. I was quite happy with that.
You can't call it democracy when a bunch of tax avoiding racists force me to choose an option.
I'm going to bed now lol!
A heady cocktail of bollocks and insults (with no introspection of irony) feathered with just enough truth to make it appear plausible to a casual reader does not carry any more weight just because it’s written by someone who can form sentences.
+1
mattyfez
Slurring Swinson for being a ‘yellow tory’ isn’t entirely unfounded. I personally don’t like her, but let’s look at the bigger picture here.
It's probably a pretty fair assessment when you look at her voting record in parliament. It's probably smart politics for her to go for the disaffected Tory voters too because they are unlikely to vote Labour under Corbyn.
That said she's got sufficienta history of distortions and outright lies for me to regard her as a slime ball.
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48746212718_e32f4a57dd_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48746212718_e32f4a57dd_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
Yeah, I tend to agree - the Lib Dem’s needed someone with more conviction and gravitas. You can be a centerist Lib Dem, one nation Tory or a new labour type whilst still having both. But there is a lack of them in both the liberal democratic and Labour Party. If we had someone like Clark gunning for the Lib Dem’s - they’d be polling 5-6 points higher.
My feelings towards Corbyn have softened a bit though recently, in light of the way he and his front benchers treated John Bercow upon his announcement of his resignation - even if it was to get one over the tories. Labour have managed to cause a great deal of very entertaining pandemonium recently.
+1…and it goes both ways, if a remainer votes for the only party that is specifically standing in the upcoming election on a revoke and remain ticket they get called ‘yellow tories’. STW political threads are a strange intolerant place.
Nothing strange about it, it’s just a reflection of the political outlook that forms the majority of posters on this thread. Plenty of pro Brexit corners of the internet where this happens too.
It only looks like intolerance because there is a lack of voices of that viewpoint. So one person posts, and a half dozen call it out as bllx.
And calling someone out for allegedly talking **** isn’t intolerance. Censoring them would be, but I’m not sure that’s purposely happening here.
mattyfez
Member
Tj said of the lib dems..privatise the NHS, anti equal rights
Think he’s had too much to drink today? Lol
That is precisely what they voted for - look at Swinsons voting record above, look at the Bigot they had as leader - Farron. Look at their actions in supporting a vile tory government.
Judge them on what they have done.
Edit - also look at the voting record and on record statements from some of the recent recruits. Its become a home for bigots and no doubt at all moved a long way to the right. I used to vote lib dem on occasion, I know quite a number of lib dem activists. The party is no longer recognisable as the one I used to vote for.
How dare an opposition party actually oppose.
And showing up the dear leader Jeremy in the process?
Corbyn is as politically cowardly as Cameron.
Most of my anger is still reserved for the Tories, around 52% I would say.
Here we go for another day with my representative to the world, the public face of the country in which I was born and live being that unelected cockwomble Johnson.
I am very cross.
Danny - thats the point. the lib dems no longer oppose the tories - they enable them. Swinson has created a space for the tories to have a clear run by dividing the opposition. She had a great opportunity over brexit to lead the remain side. What she has done instead is make a united remain front much harder to achieve and thus made us leaving with no deal more likely.
Political naivety or deliberate - it really doesn't matter. Look to what Swinson has done and said and look at what her actions have caused. without her wanting an EU referendum, without her enabling Camerons Government, without her actions since then we would not be in the mess we are in now.
Why do people keep saying BJ is "unelected" ? He was elected as an MP. The selection of Prime Minister has never been a matter for the electorate. You make good points which you undermine with this daft one. But I guess the Age of Truth has passed.
To be clear - I am not disputing the cockwomble assignation.
Look at their actions in supporting a vile tory government.
I don't know why you've been derided here. They are clearly after the remain + neolib + green-for-effect camp.
Swindleson is a flat out opportunist.
Labour cannot out-remain the Lib Dems. Thankfully, it doesn’t need to
The Lib Dems have become the standard bearers for a form of elite politics where commitment to Britain’s membership of the EU eclipses all other matters. This affliction is also found in parts of the Labour party, where many self-identifying “moderates” have seized upon Brexit in the absence of locating anything else to believe in. No matter that ordinary voters have a much wider set of concerns about their lives, from wages to public services to climate change.
Oh god, the usual “those putting stopping Brexit front and centre care about nothing else” canard. Stop Brexit, stop spending our money on Brexit preparation, free parliamentarians, civil servants, businesses and workers to get on with the stuff that matters.
…which is why a revised political declaration could be drafted and agreed in an afternoon.
It might be time to stop lying about how simple Brexit is. Perhaps.
If Labour could produce such a thing “in an afternoon”, then they could draw up a draft for it now, and challenge the government to use it.
Roe - because what I say goes against the fantasies that have built up on here based on a whole series of untruths. Pointing out the truth about the lib dems actions shows how false the narrative constructed on here is.
Lib Dems are not the ones with the good actions. they have be duplicitous, they have used brexit for political point scoring against labour. Swinson has made it clear that getting more liberal MPs is a higher goal to her than stopping brexit. Her hatred of labour is such that she would prefer to enable a tory brexit than support a labour dsecond referendum
She had a great opportunity over brexit to lead the remain side.
Which has be grasped with both hands so effectively that the LibDems look like they will be the *only* party with Revoke and Remain in their manifesto at the next election.
...if the other parties don't follow that emphatic lead from the Lib Dems that's up to them, they can't say "The Lib Dems didn't lead us properly."
@hels Dumbojo is doing exactly what he lambasted Gordon Brown over when he became PM after Tony B-liar...
Hypocrisy much?
Kelvin - they have done, its been discussed and there is obvious common ground. remove mays red lines and then a deal based around a semi brexit ie remaining in the single market etc has a very clear pathway
Its still damaging and wrong in my book - but removing mays red lines makes a deal possible
I don't think a list of opposition day motion votes are a particularly useful way of judging the record of a particular MP . They are just bits of fluff
they have used brexit for political point scoring against labour
They have pushed Labour into accepting a referendum with a Remain option. Why won’t they stop pushing? Why won’t they praise other party leaders? Why do they seek to differentiate themselves? It’s almost as if they are a political party.
they have done
Ha ha ha ha ha…
OOB - Wrong - she has not even led her whole party along with her.
By refusing to deal with labour at all and by being frankly6 offensive about Corbyn she has made a united front against no deal much harder to acheive. Leadership involves taking people with you, compromise and diplomacy. She has done none of that. large parts of her party are not able to follow her. She has made it almost impossible for labour to follow. She is now the single biggest obstacle to stopping no deal because she has split the opposition to no deal
edit - Lib dems have not pushed labour anywhere. They have made themselves irrelevant.
Why should she praise Corbyn?
As a reciprocal response to how warmly she has been welcomed? [joke]
And if you think Corbyn would have accepted the movement in Labour’s Brexit policy if people hadn’t stopped voting Labour and instead had been voting LibDem (and Green, PC & SNP) instead, then you’re not on this planet.
No matter that ordinary voters have a much wider set of concerns about their lives, from wages to public services to climate change.
Because those issues and all manner of other deep-seated challenges will be sorted out in no time with a dose of populist nationalism?
There isn't a single analysis of Brexit - not one - which points to anything other than all these things being made immeasurably worse by our departure from the EU.
If these problems are the product of neoliberalism, then the solution to them isn't going to be a right-wing project to take the (few EU regulated) shackles off the US neoliberal model, then turbocharging it, is it?
Leadership involves taking people with you, compromise and diplomacy.
All qualities that Jeremy Corbyn possesses in abundance?
Anyone heard from him lately? No? Thought not
Normal service is resumed..... back on the allotment
Regarding Jo Swinson, a good article in the Observer on Sunday by Andrew Rawnsley saying how Jo Swinson is in a great position simply by not being Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn, as we're all more than aware just how both of those clowns are, as she correctly pointed out, simply not up to the job. To put it mildly.
As a party leader (and thats what a lot of people vote for in a GE) she'll pick up a lot of votes simply by not being one half of those pair of tired old incompetents
Against very familiar rivals, Jo Swinson will be the wild card of the election
TJ it's about getting votes. And whilst you are making that point yourself you seem to be simultaneously completely missing it.
Why would she want to align her party with Labour and give the press another "vote for X and get Y" story to run them into the ground with?
Similarly I'd bet thats exactly why SNP are so quiet about coalitions this time around. After Milliband got slaughtered, partly with the above tactic it isn't in their interest to cripple their best chance at a seat at the table (whatever form that may take).
Labour aren't really an option for anyone since they don't seem to know what they want. Making your position clear isn't opportunism, sitting on the fence hoping for votes from both sides of the argument is.
Finally, why shouldn't the libs campaign on a remain ticket? You might be happy with a half arsed compromise but a sizeable number of people aren't. Those people deserve a chance to vote for what they believe in or at least have the option on the table come a referendum. I don't think the libs are under any illusions of an outright win in an election but if you campaign on a position of losing you might as well not bother at all.
Squirrel king - of course I agree with you on that. Of course its about attempting to maximise the lib dem vote ( although I believe it will backfire) However if stopping brexit is her number one priority as she has claimed then her actions mean that by chasing votes she makes brexit more likely.
Infact when asked about this she refused to answer which was more important to her - its obvious political opportunism that makes no deal more likely.
On the SNP - they have ALWAYS ruled out any coalition with anyone.
Leadership involves taking people with you, compromise and diplomacy.
Shehe has done none of that. large parts ofherhis party are not able to followherhim.SheHe has made it almost impossible for labour to follow.SheHe is now the single biggest obstacle to stopping no deal becauseshehe has split the opposition to no deal
FIFY. They're both at it. However one party is making it's position very clear indeed.
The last time Labour were making any noise about their unicorns deal they were ending FOM, but retaining the single market and customs Union. That still the plan?
Why do people keep saying BJ is “unelected” ? He was elected as an MP. The selection of Prime Minister has never been a matter for the electorate.
Though that's not what he said... which is what makes it relevant.
However forgetting that, the point is still relevant in terms of his actions when he sacks half the cabinet and withdraws the whip from back benchers that is hardly the same as Gordon Brown stepping in.
On the SNP – they have ALWAYS ruled out any coalition with anyone.
Obviously apart from the first SNP minority govt led by Salmon, when they went to the SDP to form a deal, when that didn't work, and went for minority rule with a supply and confidence from the Scottish Greens...Apart from that, you mean, right?
You be right, about never been in a coalition govt, but you'd be wrong about always ruling it out.