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https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1173616177576366080?s=21
The Incredible Sulk.
https://twitter.com/brunobrussels/status/1173598807654903813?s=21
Angela Smith getting herself in a tinge about Revoke Article 50 ... what you saying Libbers? - It's easier to come down on one side or another or maybe that fence-sitting is not so bad after all.
https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1173541612879847424
The Invisible Sulk more like 😉
@Rone, she’s not the only one of their MPs to get in a muddle over their new policy. What was your point exactly?
She wants a Deal vs Remain put to the people ahead of an election. I don’t like her… but there are plenty of people pushing that up the agenda now… and for good reason. It’s the current Tom Watson pivot point… if you like to see things that way.
An LBC caller on the Eddie Mair program has just said that Boris Johnson has played a blinder with the EU and the Luxembourg pm was very rude.
Not exactly sure I see it that way but crack on with your magic beans you ****ing deluded nut job
Millions will see it that way. Johnson will do no wrong in their eyes, as long as he keeps pushing for Brexit “do or die”.
rone,
work with opposition to get referendum, then, campaign for revoke in a GE
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49706643
"The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel Brexit if they come to power at the next general election."
"Ms Swinson also confirmed that before an election is called, the Lib Dems would continue to work with other opposition parties to campaign for a further referendum, and to prevent a "dangerous" no-deal Brexit."
i.e. exactly what she is trying to say in that clip, whilst being interrupted by the host.
Shame on Boris for running away. He should've torn his clothes off and started smashing up the office.
It's a continual internal battle to keep the rage from releasing the green monster.
It’s a continual internal battle to keep the rage from releasing the green monster.
However the purpose of doing so is quite obvious. It is to maintain the continuing narrative that the half of the voting UK electorate who voted Brexit are racist. The actual reality that Far-Right enjoys no electoral success in the UK, unlike most of Europe, is quite simply ignored (awkward facts such as Tommy Robinson losing his deposit are dismissed as unexplained bleeps)
It is of course precisely the same dog-whistle politics – insinuations, inferences, and conjecture, that the Daily Mail is guilty of.
One of the fascinating revelations I have discovered about the Brexit debate is the apparent complete lack of self-awareness shown by middle-class liberals. Crass stupidity, anti-democracy, and racism, is what they accuse those who disagree with them of, all the while ignoring those identical failings in themselves.
There are far too many examples to mention but here are a couple more.
They claim to be “internationalists” but the whole EU project represents apartheid on a global scale. “Separate Development” which is the governing principle of apartheid ideology, goes to the very heart of the EU project, but instead of awkwardly and irrationally drawn Bantustans territories continents are used as defined boundaries.
I once asked a Remainer why Bangladesh could never apply to join the EU, she instantly replied that they could apply to join ASEAN. Apparently segregation isn’t racism. No one told the segregationists of the Deep South in the USA that whites only public lavatories were okay, as long as black people were also allowed to have their own public lavatories.
Another, completely different example, is the middle-class liberal attitude towards the alleged crass stupidity, and lack of political sophistication, of those who disagree with them, which apparently makes them unfit to have a political opinion (unless it doesn’t contradict their own). On this very thread people were proudly announcing that despite voting Labour all their adult lives they had voted for non-Labour Remain candidates in local council elections.
Now local council elections are solely about providing local services and infrastructure, they have nothing to do with the EU or membership of it. Presumably if someone has previously voted Labour in local elections it is purely because they believed that the Labour councillors would be the best for their local services. But they claimed that they wanted to “teach Labour a lesson”, so they voted for candidates that they otherwise wouldn’t have voted for. Local services and infrastructure were no longer important to them.
It was of course a classic case of crass stupidity, lack of political sophistication, and shooting oneself in the foot, imo, the very thing that they accuse those who voted Leave of.
But perhaps one of the best embodiment of middle-class liberal lack of self-awareness is Caroline Lucas. Lucas talks passionately about free movement, even after Brexit. But she of course talking about positive discrimination in favour of Europeans. She doesn’t extend that to the free movement of people from say Jamaica or Hong Kong. Whichever way you look at it it’s straightforward racism. It is every bit as racist as anything that comes out of Donald Trump’s mouth. Donald Trump too doesn’t make direct racists comments But most people on here would accept that he and his supporters are racist – building walls to keep certain people out, even if they have no legal right to enter the US, is racist, banning the Muslims from entering the US, even though they are not a race, is racist.
More recently Caroline Lucas has outed herself as not only being racist but also sexist. Last month, in an act of complete bourgeois liberal unawareness, she wrote to ten female politicians, all white of course, suggesting that they form an all female emergency cabinet to stop a no-deal Brexit (just read stop Brexit).
In an appalling example of gender stereotyping she claimed that women would see things from a different perspective to men. Although to be fair to Lucas she was forced to apologise for forgetting that she knew some black female politicians.
In most of Europe the challenge and the threat comes from the Far-Right, here in the UK it comes from the anti-democratic and neo-racist middle-class liberals. Those challenges and threats should be recognised and both opposed.
Magnificently altruistic stuff. Truly internationalist and forward-looking. Unfortunately utter bollocks when it comes to the domestic U.K. politics surrounding Brexit.
I’m looking forward to Ernie delivering the message to some ‘traditional Labour voters’ in somewhere like Rotherham or Rochdale. “OK lads, the real reason for wanting Brexit is to level the economic and political playing field for third world nations where lots of brown people live”.
If Corbyn et al were running scared of sandal-wearing Grauniad types then that argument would be plausible. But they aren’t. Everyone knows the reason why ‘traditional Labour heartlands’ voted leave has bugger all to do with altruism towards foreigners. Everyone knows the polar opposite is the case.
Just been on Twitter which I try to avoid like the plague to look at the RNLI getting abuse.
Interstingly today ithe RNLI website crashed under the traffic from all the folk wanting to donate in response to this
Rather a heartening result on that rnli thing I thought.
No, it’s limited by the sea. …and if you filled all the sea in it would be limited by the size of the planet.
It’s only limited by the sea when all other land is used at 100 percent efficiency.
Before you mention something about we only produce half of our food and are therefore already at our carrying capacity, if we really wanted to we could embark on a massive program of intensive farming. Vertical farms, urban hydroponics etc. Otherwise we already need to deport 30 million people.
But if you mean the people we can sustain with our economy, then we could probably double our population looking at HK and Japan.
What I would add though is that the equatorial regions that people are migrating from are those regions that cannot sustain the level of CO2 being dumped into the atmosphere by western consumption. Don’t throw stones in glass houses.
The actual reality that Far-Right enjoys no electoral success in the UK, unlike most of Europe, is quite simply ignored
So Barking (2006) and Harwich (2014) were not far-Right Fascist electoral successes? I am disappointed Ernie.
Interstingly today ithe RNLI website crashed under the traffic from all the
folkremainers wanting to donate in response to thisFTFY
Hah. You lot have all been clamouring for intelligent pro-Brexit contributions, now you have one – thanks ernie.
A heady cocktail of bollocks and insults (with no introspection of irony) feathered with just enough truth to make it appear plausible to a casual reader does not carry any more weight just because it's written by someone who can form sentences.
And it’s not getting much of a response..?
I've had a -very- busy and trying day at work today. I might give it a go later if I'm sufficiently bored, though I've seen Ernie's Wall o' Text arguments before.
Actually, let's just go with this.
the challenge and the threat ... in the UK it comes from the anti-democratic and neo-racist middle-class liberals. Those challenges and threats should be recognised and both opposed.
How are these liberals anti-democratic and neo-racist, and what threats do they pose that we need to recognise?
Oh, and,
I once asked a Remainer why Bangladesh could never apply to join the EU, she instantly replied that they could apply to join ASEAN. Apparently segregation isn’t racism.
(Aside from "I'll take shit that never happened for $200 please, Alex" with a side order of "why on Earth would they want to anyway?"):
It makes sense does it not, culturally politically and geographically, for an Asian country to join an Asian union rather than a European one? The obvious solution to your reductio ad absurdum hypothetical would be an EU / ASEAN union rather than individual countries joining a non-local union.
By that logic you might as well ask why the UK can't join ASEAN. Oh, hey, we might be onto something here, that could be an option post-brexit!
And the answer in both cases is because the EU wouldn't let it.
There's a rather obvious flaw in your conclusion there, if we've left the EU.
Jordan Peterson levels of wordy nonsense from Ernie.
I'm joking BTW- Its not really a realistic idea worth talking about -Turkey is a realistic proposition and Russia- why don't we let them join?
ION,
Fancy some new artwork?
https://jimll.co.uk/products/order-art-print
(Now available to ORR-DERRRR!)
I’m joking BTW- Its not really a realistic idea worth talking about -Turkey is a realistic proposition and Russia- why don’t we let them join?
Still joking I take it?
Each member state has a veto.
Given the track record of turkey and Russia..
I'm pretty sure at least one of the 28(27?) would take issue with membership.
Turkey is a realistic proposition
It really isn't. Talks have catastrophically disintegrated, in no small part due to their flagrant disregard for human rights (eg, the Purges). Accession requires a "yes" from all member states, and France and Germany have both emphatically said "not while we've got a hole in our arse" (and we could veto it also if we're still a member).
It's "realistic" in so far as hypothetically it might happen eventually if they get their house in order, but it almost certainly won't be in my lifetime and probably no-one else's.
Russia- why don’t we let them join?
Please tell me you're still joking. It's either that, trolling, or you've been under a rock your entire life.
Part of Russia could well join the EU, or the outer ring of EEA countries, one day. In its present form it wouldn’t want to, and would need to make big moves towards democracy to be accepted (oh, a timely reminder that there is far more to being a democratic country than having the occasional vote).
It’s only limited by the sea when all other land is used at 100 percent efficiency.
No, it's a limited to around 57,308,738 square miles no matter what you do with it. (We'll lose a bit to climate change and gain significantly less from volcanic activity/silting up/reclamation but let's discount those for the sake of the "is land infinite or not" debate.)
Ukraine would have more chance, hence the problems there in recent years. Motherland won't let it go.
Ukraine would have more chance, hence the problems there in recent years. Motherland won’t let it go.
That’s the basic reason behind Russia’s outrageous aggression in Eastern Ukraine. Putin hates the idea of any neighboring country being part of a bloc that might have some clout. Even worse when it is a former ‘satellite state’. Yes, I know Ukraine was a ‘soviet’ rather than a satellite, but you get the idea.
Good old ‘border incidents’ eh? The favoured ‘reason’ of international criminals down the ages.
It is a major reason why Putin funded Brexit propaganda, using Aaron Banks as a conduit for his dirty money.
dannyh Member
I’m looking forward to Ernie delivering the message to some ‘traditional Labour voters’ in somewhere like Rotherham or Rochdale. “OK lads, the real reason for wanting Brexit is to level the economic and political playing field for third world nations where lots of brown people live”.
My post, the first one on this thread for several years, was not, nor was it intended to be, making the case for Brexit. I really wouldn't attempt to do that on STW's very own echo chamber. If I was making argument for Brexit it would be from completely different perspective. As you quite rightly point out there is insufficient concern, right across the social classes, for "brown people" for it to provide a compelling argument.
The purpose of the post was to highlight the hypocrisy, which I politely referred to as lack of self-awareness, of middle-class liberals. The motivation for that was the reference on this thread, which is about Brexit, of a crude xenophobic Daily Mail article concerning the RNLI. I couldn't see any reference about Brexit in that article. At the risk of repeating myself it was obviously relying on dog-whistle tactics......the same tactic as used by the Daily Mail.
Predictably what I posted has been extensively misrepresented, and all sorts of disingenuous and false claims alleging what I said made. Which I have to admit I find somewhat reassuring - no one does that if they have a better way to counter your argument.
Also predictably some people feel insulted by my comments, which of course goes back to my point of lack of self-awareness. I had barely hit the send button before the first insult came flying. Anyone with an opposing point of view is dismissed as stupid/racist/talking bollocks/etc.
Danny - you need to be aware that ukraines borders now encompass a much larger area than historically ( a big chunk of pre war poland to the west and chunks of pre war Russia to the south and east) - and that Crimea - the only bit Russia is really interested in - was put under Ukrainian control relatively recently 1954 IIRC as an autonomous region and that the people of Crimea voted ( I have no idea how fairly) to be a part of Russia not Ukraine.
Russias take over of Crimea is no where near as black and white as our press would have you think
I had barely hit the send button before the first insult came flying. Anyone with an opposing point of view is dismissed as stupid/racist/talking bollocks/etc.
+1
...and it goes both ways, if a remainer votes for the only party that is specifically standing in the upcoming election on a revoke and remain ticket they get called 'yellow tories'. STW political threads are a strange intolerant place.
It might have been this comment
One of the fascinating revelations I have discovered about the Brexit debate is the apparent complete lack of self-awareness shown by middle-class liberals. Crass stupidity, anti-democracy, and racism, is what they accuse those who disagree with them of, all the while ignoring those identical failings in themselves.
Anyone who is racist or anti democratic is by definition, illiberal.
Assuming they are middle class is also a crass insult, so for you to act surprised when you say something that's completely inappropriate, insulting and incorrect, when it gets thrown back in your face pretty quickly, is well.. Laughable.
OOB - they get called tory lite for their actions. Swinson has led the lib dems sharply to the right and is clearly far more favourable to the tories than to labour.
Judge them by their actions and their words. 20 years ago the lib dems were well to the left of labour and the SNP - they are now well to the right and almost indistinguishable from the tories of 20+ years ago. Illiberal, right wing, free marketeers, low tax, low benefits, privatise the NHS, anti equal rights.
Anyone with an opposing point of view is dismissed as stupid/racist/talking bollocks/etc.
In this case, you were just talking bollocks*. Not stupid or racist or etc.
*In a wider sense what you are saying makes sense, but I reckon your view would have been behind a mere handful of Leave voters if any. It simply is not relevant to the day to day shitshow that is Brexit.
I admire your idealism, but if anything, the U.K. has gone backwards in its political awareness (geopolitical and home politics). Still, dreams are dreams, eh?
Russias take over of Crimea is no where near as black and white as our press would have you think
Point taken. Putin doesn’t like strong neighbors, though, does he?
“I didn’t mean any of it, I was just being provocative.”
Yawn. Thanks, but no thanks, Ernie.
Also don't confuse liberalism with the Liberal Democrats, they are kinda Liberal, more than most UK parties, but thier acceptance o exiled tories and Labour MPs has caused a lot of concern within the party. There have been several resignations (not MPs but grass roots members) over this.
Slurring Swinson for being a 'yellow tory' isn't entirely unfounded. I personally don't like her, but let's look at the bigger picture here.
when Ernie said that neo liberals are racists that are a bigger threat than the far right.... Are we not allowed to call that out as bobbins?
I'm not sure that there's been many convictions or terrorism of remainers, or MPs shot? There's been some large & very peaceful marches, and no one does petitions like us remainers, but is that really a 'threat' ?
20 years ago the lib dems were well to the left of labour and the SNP – they are now well to the right
Oh, this is definitely true… all three parties have moved on so many issues. As have the actual Tories.
Now… EU membership… who stands where, compared to even 5 years ago…
Russias take over of Crimea is no where near as black and white as our press would have you think
Yup. Not least because (IIRC) Russia were supporting a democratically elected Government which had been deposed by pro-EU pro NATO rebels.
Who knows how fair the elections were but the rebels certainly weren't elected at all.
...and, of course, the NATO front line has moved 600 miles towards Russia. Who can blame them for getting a bit jumpy. If Russia had moved 600 miles toward Germany we'd have nuked them by now!
I'm not saying Russia are the good guys here, but five minutes trying to see things from their POV would result in a far wiser strategy.
Of course Russia has China on their Border so maybe their biggest threat is coming from that direction and maybe the Yiwu–London railway line is a big risk for Russia and the nations it passes through will become Chinese satellite states.
Tj, you keep speaking in binary terms of left and right whilst ignoring the axis of Liberalism and authoritarian.
Oh good, it’s apology for Putin’s military authoritarianism time. Would be wise for the rest of us to back out of the thread and leave them to it…