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The actual reality that Far-Right enjoys no electoral success in the UK
Except for the bit where they scared the Tory party into a referendum, won it, then colonised the party to force the agenda further and further to the right until they achieve a no-deal/crash out Brexit, whereupon they will remake the countries identity to resemble a mini-US of A
Yeah.. other than that, the whole far-right Brexit agenda has been a complete electoral failure
Remind me how the Corbynite Socialist Revolution is looking at the moment, electorally speaking?
Rayban – many things you could accuse Ernie of but bigoted? Did you even bother to read his post? I took from it that he wants equal immigration rules for all not preferential from the EU. His point being that EU freedom of movement is inherently racist.
I did. And his comments comparing apartheid South Africa to the EU gave him away.
He is using the language of social justice as a clever ruse and doesn’t believe for a second that leaving the EU is non-racist. And he certainly won’t be calling for unilateral freedom of movement for the rest of the world when we leave.
If the country's more polarized than it was at the referendum there's at least 48% of the vote that the Lib Dems are going for in a GE - I don't see that as a stupid policy by any stretch. What do they have to lose other than further reducing the "80% voted for parties offering Brexit" vote?
The actual reality that Far-Right enjoys no electoral success in the UK, unlike most of Europe,
The Tory party is well to the right of right wing parties in Europe the British media describe as far right. Take an objective look at Tory party actions (rather than stated policy) and find me a successful* far right party in Europe that proposes worse.
* defining what you mean by electoral success would be useful. Most extreme right parties are electoral failures and "unlike most of Europe" is erroneous.
How does FOM stop a nation from offering similar rights to non-EU citizens?
As for the EU being neoliberal, we trashed our unions ourselves, we chose to spend way less on state aid than most EU countries, we choose not to invest in technical education the way other countries do, we are happy to sell off industries left, right & centre the way many EU countries do not
That we just spent the last 30+ years voting in our own neoliberal governments is not the fault of the EU
the failure is all ours & scapegoating the EU is just an easy way to avoid asking tough questions of ourselves- until we stop that we will get nowhere
@Earnie: Thanks for raising the tone/level of the debate.
anyone know where to get reliable recent polling data on a single constituency ?
Mine (Bury South) is a right oddity, was a tory seat up to the Blair era when Ivan Lewis got in thanks to uniting the oldschool labour and the jewish community who float with a representative for them (which I think is a smart move for them, I'd totally recommend having a jewish community around they are good neighbours). But now Ivan has left Lab and is an independent who is pushing for Brexit (so not voting for him) so do I vote for to avoid a blue seat ? no love for either LibDem or Lab right now
How does FOM stop a nation from offering similar rights to non-EU citizens?
Because land isn't infinite. If one lot of people take up some space, you can't then give that space to another lot.
If the country’s more polarized than it was at the referendum there’s at least 48% of the vote that the Lib Dems are going for in a GE – I don’t see that as a stupid policy by any stretch. What do they have to lose other than further reducing the “80% voted for parties offering Brexit” vote?
+1 it's a vote winner. The hardcore Brexiteer votes are already lost, they can only gain votes from this policy.
Land in the UK isn’t limited, that’s neomalthusian bullshit as well. Look at Tokyo and Hong Kong, we aren’t even close to that kind of density.
Nor has Ernie raised the level of the debate, his argument was essentially that we shouldn’t be allowing Sheffielders the freedom to move to London because that’s racist. A vexatious and ridiculous premise, it’s a morons idea of a clever argument.
But now Ivan has left Lab and is an independent who is pushing for Brexit (so not voting for him) so do I vote for to avoid a blue seat ?
Bury South? It’s going to end up a four way Labour / Independent / Brexit / Conservative fight. So your least worst option will be Labour, if you’re not a Brexit believer.
@Earnie: Thanks for raising the tone/level of the debate.
What, by posting a load of Brexie left propaganda, give over. The tone is 1970s Trotsky-Ché student bar and the level is 1st year.
Yeah I mean, if there was ever a time for one of Binners 6th form jokes that was it.
That was the kind of reasoning that me and my mates would descend into if we were tripping balls in A-level politics lessons.
THanks Kelvin - given the output of Ivan the untenable's twitter feed, he's pushing all the Tory lines of 'not delivering Brexit is undemocratic' I wouldn't be surprised if he's the next tory candidate !!
his argument was essentially that we shouldn’t be allowing Sheffielders the freedom to move to London because that’s racist
They didnt say that. So why not take on their argument and defeat it in a sensible way?
I dont agree with their position but coming up with a coherent counterargument is a tad more difficult.
Dont forget that a variation on that theme was, seemingly successfully, used by the brexiteers with their curry chef and similar targeted campaigns at the Asian community. Arguing that the commonwealth countries were being discriminated against due to the EU.
They didnt say that. So why not take on their argument and defeat it in a sensible way?
I dont agree with their position but coming up with a coherent counterargument is a tad more difficult
Not explicitly no.
But he did say.
But perhaps one of the best embodiment of middle-class liberal lack of self-awareness is Caroline Lucas. Lucas talks passionately about free movement, even after Brexit. But she of course talking about positive discrimination in favour of Europeans. She doesn’t extend that to the free movement of people from say Jamaica or Hong Kong. Whichever way you look at it it’s straightforward racism. It is every bit as racist as anything that comes out of Donald Trump’s mouth. Donald Trump too doesn’t make direct racists comments But most people on here would accept that he and his supporters are racist – building walls to keep certain people out, even if they have no legal right to enter the US, is racist, banning the Muslims from entering the US, even though they are not a race, is racist
It is a logical fallacy to state that keeping out non-Europeans makes EU FOM segregationist. It doesn’t, it makes UK policy potentially segregationist - but even that view fails to take into account that freedom of movement is based on geopolitical and economic needs and agreements. We do not have FOM with say Japan, as neither side has yet to decide whether it benefits our respective countries geopolitically and economically enough to cope with the downsides.
A detailed counter argument (instead of my equally ridiculous rebuttal) understands geopolitical interest and that we have moved beyond the concept of colour and cultural blindness in social justice.
You also have to understand that FOM needs to start somewhere, you aren’t going to convince the world to go borderless tomorrow - it has to be done in increments.
The rule of law being good for Brits doesn’t make it racist because Colombians don’t have it. The same goes for FOM.
If FOM is racist and segregationist, FOM for Scousers within the UK is as well. I mean, here in London we could employ people with a bet the r command of English from Nigeria.
Caroline Lucas is more racist than Trump?
Christ on a bendybus! I'm re-evaluating my initial assessment of Corbynite lefty politics and have no option but to downgrade it from 6th form level...
It's some way off that. Common room level is but a lofty ambition for that utter drivel!
defining what you mean by electoral success would be useful. Most extreme right parties are electoral failures and “unlike most of Europe” is erroneous.
Leaga Nord. AFD. And the Austrian mob.
Caroline Lucas is more racist than Trump?
Christ on a bendybus! I’m re-evaluating my initial assessment of Corbynite lefty politics and have no option but to downgrade it from 6th form level…
It’s some way off that. Common room level is but a lofty ambition for that utter drivel
Yup. Only the right wing or lexiteers could make a process or ideology that is antiracist, racist because it’s not yet antiracist enough.
War is peace, freedom is slavery etc etc.
Land in the UK isn’t limited,
😀
It’s only synthetically limited - as in by legislation and political will.
In the Euopean elections the Brexit party did about three time as well as the AFD. Even in it's Saxe stronghold the AFD failed to do as well as the Brexit party did nationally in the UK.
The "Austrian mob" are Tory-lite when it comes to issues such as refugees. Compare how many Syrians Austria took in with the UK.
Land in the UK isn’t limited
That would look good on a bus.
Land in the UK isn’t limited
Have we got the exact figures on which 12 tax-dodging multibillionaires and members of the aristocracy own about 80% of it?
What this country needs is more grouse-shooting moors and golf courses
Who’s Von Rumpoy? 🙂
It’s generally accepted that treaties between countries can be revoked, so I’d like more detail.
There you go.
Mr Van Rompuy - who chaired EU summits between 2009 and 2014 before handing over to Donald Tusk - said any indyref2 must be agreed with the UK.
If there was a Yes vote in a referendum that was "constitutional" he said Scotland would have a "legal case"...
...Mr Van Rompuy was also perceived to cast doubt on independent Scottish membership of the EU when he made comments about Catalonia.
But the former EU Council chief is clear that there is a "big difference" between the cases of Catalonia and Scotland.
In his view, it would be "unthinkable" for Catalonia to be considered for EU membership because its referendum is regarded as illegal by Spain.
Scotland, he said, would be treated "otherwise" if it had a legally-agreed referendum.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49690513
It’s only synthetically limited – as in by legislation and political will.
No, it's limited by the sea. ...and if you filled all the sea in it would be limited by the size of the planet.
Have we got the exact figures on which 12 tax-dodging multibillionaires and members of the aristocracy own about 80% of it?
Love it. Owning 80pc of an infinite resource! 😀
@ Edukator
Agree, but they still pose a "problem" when they're sitting at the table.
Odds on the Lib Dems winning a moderate amount of seats in the next election, then changing their mind about being pro-remain and cosying up with Labour or even the Conservatives in exchange for a second referendum and a chance of government.
Then MP's, mainly Tories and Labour rebels in leave areas, veto any second referendum from happening and we are still on track to leave, with all the lib dem votes doing naff all?
Me, sour about tuition fees? No never..
Hi
My bet is if the numbers stack up they go back into coalition with the tories. Its clear ~Swinson is no liberal but a closet tory
Odds on the Lib Dems winning a moderate amount of seats in the next election, then changing their mind about being pro-remain and cosying up with Labour or even the Conservatives in exchange for a second referendum and a chance of government.
"Vote for a leave party because the only Remain party might not really be a remain party.". Hmmmm.
...a vote for Lib Dems will go on record as being a vote for a Remain Manifesto whether they keep their promise or not. ...and I suspect they *will* keep their promise since it's so utterly fundamental.
I absolutely would love to see the LibDems as part of any coalition government after the election, with a referendum tied on. As someone who will be voting Labour, I’d like it to be a Labour/LibDem coalition… but that’s dependent on how everyone votes. A doubt their members would vote for that though. Confidence and supply is more likely, no matter what Swinson wants (the members get the final say… shocking… I know). SNP also likely to run away from any coalition with anyone. Confidence and supply from them as well… but with TWO referendums tagged on.
My bet is if the numbers stack up they go back into coalition with the tories.
Good. A coalition where one of the main parties is forced to get together with a party with a crystal clear remain mandate would be a 100pc good thing and at the very least would delay Brexit by 5 years by which time we might find one of the two main parties taking a remain stance and then Brexit won't happen ever.
Job jobbed.
And when they're out on the street intimidating people.
Ernie was pointing a finger at Europe and ignoring the support for and influence of the extreme right in the UK.
Jo Cox
Windrush, how many other EU countires had a programme of deporting long term residents from former colonies?
Hostile environment
Privatising essential public services
Victim blaming
Lobby group influence
Blatent sexism
Heavy-handed policing
ASBOs
silencing orders
discrimination against homosexual soldiers
Detention of asylum seekers and minors
no time limit to detention of immigrants
violation of privacy rights
No abortion in NI
And then ypu wonder why the extreme right Tories want out of the EU and ECJ.
My bet is if the numbers stack up they go back into coalition with the tories. Its clear ~Swinson is no liberal but a closet tory
I will have a tenner against that. No way will the Lib Dems go with Tories again (especially not teh further right party of today). Swinson would yes, but the party wouldn't back it.
SNP will not "run away" from anything. They have been quite clear for a long time that they will not go into any sort of coalition with a UK party as they have no interest in england only stuff and so it would be wrong of them to do so
S&P perhaps. abstain on a queens speech perhaps. Full coalition would be grossly hypocritical
Kerley - Swinson is the one who decides ( not the party - it didn't go to a party vote last time) - backed pastry and pig products based betting only for me
it didn’t go to a party vote last time
Yes. It did.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/16/liberal-democrats-conference-conservatives
One of the small parties *will* almost certainly be put in a position where they have to help one of the big parties. Even if they really refuse to get involved at all refusing to work with party A inherently helps party B.
...but apart from anything else there is no future for a party that openly will not accept Government because it makes them unpopular. People only vote for a party because they want it to have office at some point.
There was a niche for the LibDems because the big parties always won a majority so they never took unpopular decisions but could still strive to win. Those days are over, the small parties can't hide from responsibility any more.
My bet is if the numbers stack up they go back into coalition with the tories. Its clear ~Swinson is no liberal but a closet tory
My bet is that 'traditional' Labour supporters are starting to get twitchy now that the constructive ambiguity (aka fence-sitting) strategy will stack up very badly against 'Brexit at all costs' or 'Revoke at all costs'. If one lesson can be learned from the last three and a bit years it is that equivocal and vague messaging is not a winning strategy.
It was always going to come to this because Labour are hopelessly split - maybe even worse than the Tories.
So I’m MORE anti-democratic and racist than a fascist?
Me too apparently. I hadn't realised.
My bet is that ‘traditional’ Labour supporters are starting to get twitchy now that the constructive ambiguity (aka fence-sitting) strategy will stack up very badly against ‘Brexit at all costs’ or ‘Revoke at all costs’. If one lesson can be learned from the last three and a bit years it is that equivocal and vague messaging is not a winning strategy.
+1
...and it's too late to change. If Labour pick a side now nobody is going to buy it.
Mind you, having a losing strategy is kind of a winning strategy, who on earth wants power right now?
O)OB - SNP policy on this is very clear and coherent. Remember they have experience of running minority governments. the most labour will get from them is S&C There is no way and no reason to go into coalition and would be grossly hypocritical to do so.
50 snp mps will be a force in the commons tho and will vote against any tory queens speech