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Follow the money?
Apropos the person asking about why the Unions are a bit Brexity, it is why Corbyn has been at least until now similarly Brexity - they are moved by the Bennite argument -
- which tbf has much merit.
One could argue that it is a side argument to an already lost one, but it does at least have some meat on its bones.
I think what we all must focus on now is the 'threat' from the brexit party ltd - because one thing that has been noticeable from general discourse since the European Elections is the absence of Nigel's Garage.
Not hitherto known for shrinking before the lights, why has he been so reticent in recent weeks? Could it be because he is struggling to put a manifesto together that could actually unite his own company, let alone the electorate?
Because the last time i gave even the most cursory thought to how to make friends and influence people, suggesting that the NHS was pretty much dead and we'd all have to accept an insurance based healthcare system was not massively high on the list of how to achieve any sort of popularity - like, whatsoever - in the still-only-just-barely-hanging-by-a-thread-United Kingdom.
To be scared of Farage is a real mistake, especially to anyone who had the misfortune to watch Ann Widdecombe's post-election interview on the night of their single-issue election victory.
But they will just lie! i hear you cry... yes they will, but they will fail to lie consistently as the loose cannons misfire spectacularly day after day in the heat of the hustings. The brexit party ltd will be as much dust as Ukip is this time next year - give them enough rope and they will surely hang themselves.
raybanwomble
Member
So Boris has made concessions to (mostly Chinese) international students giving them two years to work after graduating and HKEX just made a low ball bid for the LSE as well.
There doesn't have to be any conspiracy on the post-graduation working, it was a moronic policy when it was launched, it's been fought over ever since, literally nobody believes it's a good idea... Just a daft bit of pretty ineffectual posturing that did a lot of harm to the country.
Re the other, though, the "great" thing about this is that they'll portray it as "investment in the UK"
Oh I totally agree Northwind, but you can bet the Tories didn’t have a change of heart because it’s a good idea - my cynical side says they’ve done it to grease the cogs of some shit free trade deal with a country like India.
I worked for an Indian generics company who’s modus operandi in the UK was to pay for masters courses at crappy unis in the uk for young adults from one state and even city in India and then use them as indentured workers to be treated like slaves.
GMP/GDP regulations flouted at every corner, staff who spoke up threatened with being sent home along with their families, unpaid overtime to the point of dropping people’s wages below the minimum wage or effectively halfing it, eventually they killed a patient.
#takingbackcontrol
raybanwomble
Member
my cynical side says they’ve done it to grease the cogs of some shit free trade deal with a country like India.
If they have, it's a feeble effort- India made it clear exactly what they wanted and it was a relaxation on/massive increase in visas, this wouldn't even scratch the surface.
listening to Today, yesterday, it was interesting to see the students story come directly after the Calais Dover record crossing immigration story. Almost as if those who'd supplied the stories were saying "IT'S ALL ABOUT IMMIGRATION, BUT WE'RE NOT RACIST, LOOK"
On the day the proroguing was announced there was a big Calais Dover immigration story too.
Tory surge in polls! 😉
'Kin Borisgate.
Not hitherto known for shrinking before the lights, why has he been so reticent in recent weeks?
He seems to have been busy doing a tour of the country trying to get support underway. Its just that its not getting much press.
In addition they have been running their constant "please like us back" advertising campaign to get the brexiteers talking.
So the London stock exchange is being taken over by the Chinese and the European parliament is taking control of Brexit
It seems everyone except the UK parliament is taking control of Britain and it's future.
How does that killfile thing work again ?
Private Eye this week has a quote in from an Army Officer commenting on the report that Reserves will be called up to fill in missing slots in the Civil service if the crash out happens. They seemed to be unimpressed with the plan.
Tuesday in the supreme court will be interesting.
Jesus I hope the latest Scottish Court ruling is upheld...
So it isn't the North that's all Brexity...
https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/1171373442349895681?s=19
Living in Kent I can confirm it is predominantly Tory/kippers, and rascist.
I will not provide a Venn diagram.
To be fair it's the Midlands that is most Brexity and the only bit that is net leave in that survey. I grew up in the East Midlands and my family still live there - and it is definitely a strongly brexit vibe I get when I go down there
But they will just lie! i hear you cry… yes they will, but they will fail to lie consistently as the loose cannons misfire spectacularly day after day in the heat of the hustings. The brexit party ltd will be as much dust as Ukip is this time next year – give them enough rope and they will surely hang themselves.
You'd think that matters but it doesn't appear to.
Instead believers in the religion simply deny, try and say "it wasn't REALLY a lie" and "they were mis-quoted" or "out of context" .. or simply say's "Remain lied so it's OK"
That poll result image is interesting. YouGov lump Wales and the Midlands together which is pretty dim IMO. Culturally the Midlands, SE Wales and the rest of Wales are pretty different.
Living in Kent I can confirm it is predominantly Tory/kippers, and rascist.
And living in the New Forest I can confirm the same.
You all look like rabid Brexiteers from where I am 😊
I will not provide a Venn diagram.
Easiest venn diagram ever!
That poll result image is interesting. YouGov lump Wales and the Midlands together which is pretty dim IMO. Culturally the Midlands, SE Wales and the rest of Wales are pretty different.
Interesting but ....
I'm not sure that matters or is relevant to outcome though ...
The whole "success" of Leave has always been individual profiling so that messages to the hardline Tory can be tailored differently to the traditional labour voter but down into fine detail.
The result as played by May is "Brexit means Brexit" or more accurately Brexit means pretty much nothing (or everything). Nearly everyone I know voted Brexit absolutely did so based on a "fantastic deal with the EU" ... so even if you were to say at the time of the referendum the choices were really "Brexit at any and all costs", Brexit if we can get a good deal and remain but that middle one was in reality thousands of choices.
Lets say (for example) some people in Kent voted for immigratation (being as where they are) then a hard border was (according to Boris) the only way to "control"... whereas the minority leave in NI were fed completely different messages.
Don't even think this is what people post or like, its WAY WAY deeper than that. All the FB ads or "Apps/Quiz" like "test your IQ, identify the 70's cars", "which countries have you visited" are profiling.
It's more subtle* but for example someone has lower IQ, identifies British and american 70's cars but not European, picks white people for fantasy football, has only travelled to Spain... will be receiving different "ads" and targetted differently AND they can't share the actual content other than screenshots.
*by subtle i mean it breaks down way further, which Q's did you get right or wrong on "test your IQ", did limited travel coincide with football... what you question vs just accept...
And the really insidious thing with all that is, it's not just the profiling but the outcome / results which are invisible. Because it's directly targeted, you can tell people anything you want and the people who would be likely to object to it are never even aware it existed. Some of the pre-referendum targeted advertising on Facebook was absolutely horrendous.
Interesting but ….
I’m not sure that matters or is relevant to outcome though
Looks like a flaw in polls, and polling is relevant because parties pay attention to it. But yes, I know what you mean. And yours is a good post re social media.
You all look like rabid Brexiteers from where I am
And therein lies the problem. Looked at from Europe it's more and more seen as a foregone conclusion even if it hasn't happened yet. People are behaving as if it's already happened because the opposition is inaudible, both HM's Opposition and the widespread opposition you'd expect to hear from the Remain side which is generally 5 points ahead in the polls. Labour now has the promise of another referendum but policy seems to be a red Brexit.
On a personal level it hasn't happened yet but EU citizens are being given hoops to jump through, the civil service is clearly already implementing Brexit policy. Business has been told to prepare for no deal and is doing just that.
There are ministers travelling the world to sort out post EU trade deals and new alliances.
And then Britain wants a fantastic deal with privileges from its closest neighbours it's intent on doing the dirty on...
I spent the first part of this thread rubbishing leave propaganda, then a period pointing out the negative implications of leaving. I now find myself in the unhappy position of pointing out that no deal is the best Brexit option for the EU as it limits damage to the EU. Support for remain is collapsing, the 27 realise that the British veto would be a real problem in future, it would be a ball and chain around the ankle of Europe. Negotiation up until now has been with pragmatic EU heads of state, mainly Macron and Merkel, when the European parliment get voting expect results to reflect an increasing resistance to the UK's attempt gain unfair advantage.
this is as big a problem as any, for those of us who really want to stay in the EU. If we're not there already, we'll soon be at the point where we're not welcome anyway - then it's over.
I do believe that it won't be that long before we're asking to rejoin (a few years, maybe) but we'll never get the same terms we're currently on.
And the really insidious thing with all that is, it’s not just the profiling but the outcome / results which are invisible. Because it’s directly targeted, you can tell people anything you want and the people who would be likely to object to it are never even aware it existed. Some of the pre-referendum targeted advertising on Facebook was absolutely horrendous.
It's almost certainly worse than we see.
The point as you make is that we can't know.
Yet more delaying and secrecy over that Yellowhammer document which is fooling precisely no-one.
I'd concur with the rural/city split, from experience of a rural area.
Yet more delaying and secrecy over that Yellowhammer document which is fooling precisely no-one.
Its fooling millions because they WANT to be fooled.
Even if/when the entire thing comes out millions will refuse to believe it.
Question: If the government ignore the 'no no deal' law and don't ask the EU for an extension, then by default we will be out of the EU on the 1st November....
Even if the government is taken to court for breaking the law, will it actually matter as we would have already left (and the damage done) ?
Even if/when the entire thing comes out millions will refuse to believe it
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
Question: If the government ignore the ‘no no deal’ law and don’t ask the EU for an extension, then by default we will be out of the EU on the 1st November….Even if the government is taken to court for breaking the law, will it actually matter as we would have already left (and the damage done) ?
It's law that we leave on the 31st.
It's law that boris has to ask for an extension. But there are no penalties related to breaking the law. It's also an incredibly dodgy law as it only applies to him. Breaking it is political theatre and little more.
Breaking it is political theatre and little more.
Breaking it sends a signal to Parliament that they need to take further action. Check the dates in the legislation. If he hasn’t complied by the 19th October… then parliament needs to work out what to do next. You are right that it is unlikely that anything happens automatically if he refuses… it’s down to Parliament to act, if they need to… it could well be that an extension is put in place without Johnson having to send the letter of request, and without it having to go back to parliament.
Breaking it sends a signal to Parliament that they need to take further action.
Sure. More political manoeuvres will come.
Question: If the government ignore the ‘no no deal’ law and don’t ask the EU for an extension, then by default we will be out of the EU on the 1st November….
Even if the government is taken to court for breaking the law, will it actually matter as we would have already left (and the damage done) ?
I think technically its Boris, not "the government" but either way I don't think there is a definitive answer.
Pure speculation but the EU could choose to unilaterally issue an extension for approval by someone who commands a majority in parliament ??
More interestingly and pure speculation I wonder if say Boris takes it to appeal and loses if he'd appeal to the ECJ?
Thanks for the replies.
There has to be a further vote in Parliament no matter what… to change our exit date… even if an extension has been agreed with the EU. The 19th of October was chosen to give Johnson as much time as possible to get a deal, and/or an extension, while leaving parliament (just) enough time to pass what needs passing to avoid our exit on 31st.
I noticed at Gatwick last night, that passport control has already changed the lanes to UK + Commonwelath and FCA partners and then all the rest so no mention of EU, this all seems a touch too soon and feels wrong - anyone else noticed at other airports??
“There are none so blind as those who will not see.”
I think you have to class Brexit as a religion. Along with stuff like flat earth the proof and fact are just dismissed or experts debunked simply for understanding something they don't want to or can't grasp.
Something obvious may come up that should shatter the belief but instead it just gets bypassed as inconvenient.
Don't know if you saw the Netflicks Documentary for example but they followed to conclusive experiments done by flat earthers. One they bought a $20,000 laser gyroscope that showed a rotation of 15deg/hour... which they couldn't accept so they invented some new "cosmic force" then invented some shield (gauss box) ... and retried and it happened again ... sop ultimately they turned on the bloke who did the experiment and accused him of being a NASA/CIA plant.
The other they used a laser level along a canal and found the earth was curved exactly as a globe would...
Neither of these seems to have made any real difference in terms of flat earth supporters.
They just invent new excuses... and blame/claim spies and traitors
Brexit has been a series of these excuses ... "Easiest Deal ever" etc. people have spent time drawing up contradications (video evidence of Gove/Boris/Farage etc. (pretty much the whole lot of them) or their tweets) but they are ignored... or excused or its claimed to be a fake.
It's just the same crap.... mostly they don't even bother trying to be consistent liars or factual. An example is the Manx Kipper.... given the tax domicile of funders for Brexit you might ask WTF Boris was doing in the IOM to start with... but he certainly can't claim not to realise it's not in the EU... he's not exactly detail oriented so perhaps we could believe he didn't realise the fresh fish legislation doesn't apply to kippers... yet he tells a story about the Manx Kipper producers being driven to bankrupcy by EU fresh fish legislation.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the company doesn't even exist.. and his choice of "kipper" isn't simply symbolic and the joke being he was in a tax haven....
Some journalist could uncover this.. he was meeting Aaron Banks, he never visited the kipper producer that doesn't exist etc. but I doubt it would change anyone's mind.
I think you have to class Brexit as a religion. Along with stuff like flat earth the proof and fact are just dismissed or experts debunked simply for understanding something they don’t want to or can’t grasp.
It is a staggering achievement when you think about it.
And all this time we have looked on at North Korea in a kind of awe at the powerful brainwashing techniques they are said to have employed - yet the real thing was being done here, under our very noses.
I think you have to class Brexit as a religion.
It's certainly not far off one.
More a death cult than a religion
Boris, Cummings and the ERG do seem absolutely determined to crash us out without a deal. I seriously think that that was their intention right from the day the referendum result came in.
I think they were massively emboldened by winning what nobody thought they'd win (not even themselves) and they've successfully shifted the agenda further and further to the right and become more and more extreme ever since.
At this point I don't think there's anything they won't do to drive through a no deal Brexit. Nothing they wouldn't stoop too
Its absolutely insane
I believe you are right about it being their intention from day one.
And all they needed to do was some targeted advertising.
Thick? Racist? Scum? You'll love Brexit - we'll send them funny looking foreigners home!
Old? Senile? Living in the 1930s? Love Queen Victoria and the British Empire? You'll love Brexit - Britain can Stand Alone And Conquer The World Again!
Ill? Like the NHS? You'll Love Brexit - the NHS will be Made Great Again!