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why don't you stop and consider that they may have a point that you haven't fully appreciated
Because after nearly 6 months most people have failed to bring one to the table that is based in facts.
So to qualify - immigration was debunked as causing the issues claimed
Neglect by the UK government is not the fault of the EU
Lack of investment in schools and health was the fault of the UK not the EU
The steel industry is about the only thing but a country making steel from entirely imported raw materials is in trouble. It's the same issue in the rest of the western world and as pointed out the Port Talbot works was a pension disater with a steel making hobby.
Corporation tax cut anyone? It's not like anyone pays their bit anyway.
If anything will unite both camps and I'm sure we can all agree Gove is a complete c*** there's a fact.
Everything that we see happening now with UK leaving the EU bureaucratic system is normal. Yes, normal.
No big deal as we are switching from one system to another.
Many institutions and organisations will be jockeying for positions while the adjustment underway. This adjustment will happen like all other major adjustments in the world.
The opportunity is presented to those that move on with the new next UK system while those sticking to the rejected EU system will slowly be left behind.
Relax, move on and be happy as what you see now is normal.
Hopefully any new system will be like Universal Tax Credits, a stroke of UK genius.
Jamba have you ever been to Ebbw Vale? Don't lie now I know telling untruths is your default position
What position have I not appreciated?
The opportunity is presented to those that move on with the new next UK system while those sticking to the rejected EU system will slowly be left behind.
Indeed. Rumour is its going to be called the "fuedel system". Sounds terribly exciting!
[url= http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-3839945/Car-makers-roll-wave-rises-face-higher-costs-pound-s-slump.html ]Car prices rise.[/url]
Car prices rise.
but but but the weak pound was supposed to turn us into a mega-manufacturing, ,exporting, world beating titan.....
Instead of insulting the peope of Wales why don't you stop and consider that they may have a point that you haven't fully appreciated
Are you suggesting that they are xenophobic?
Kimbera - overly hash. BOE is independent , why do you think the likes of Gove and Rees-Mogg get so sweaty when they state the obvious facts that contradict their lies?
Instead of insulting the peope of Wales why don't you stop and consider that they may have a point that you haven't fully appreciated
Speaking as a person of Wales I'm also keen to hear this point that they may have.
Their attacks on Carney, along with other brexiters leaking against the treasury show that May is also having trouble controlling the vitriol that the referendum has stirred up
Not just blaming everyone else for the impending mess, but also furiously briefing against each other....
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/23/tories-cutting-each-others-throats-on-theresa-mays-leaking-ship ]Rats in a sack[/url]
its ironic but there are a lot of similarities between the Brexiteers and Jeremy Corbyn. They're the Tory Awkward Squad. They're spent their careers being a PITA to the front bench. And now people are expecting them to suddenly be disciplined and start behaving themselves. Yeah... some chance.
I think theres a possibility that this facade could very rapidly come crumbling down, because behind the scenes the Tory's are as fundamentally divided as labour
is this a relative of yours binners ?
You can't blame leaks for the already unfolding disaster. May, Fox and Johnson are making public utterances which not only are at odds with each other, but betray a profoundly ignorant, superficial idea of the consequences of their ill-thought schemes. They have already alienated the very people they depend on to give us a good deal, closed off the best options , spooked the markets and encouraged businesses to start planning their escape. Their ineptitude is staggering, the consequences economically ruinous, and the fallout one of toxic division within the country. They could hardly get it more wrong. They have no idea what they are doing or how to negotiate, and are more interested in their own careers and the extremist wing of the nasty party. It is a disaster of colossal stupidity and vainglorious ineptitude.
Exactly, numbers, there seems to be a split in the government and in the electorate, it's either all about immigrants or all about the economy- the reality is that the 2 are all tangled up, its not just that the single market would require freedom of movement, but that our economic model and ageing population depends on a steady influx of migrannts.
The economy won the Tories the last 2 elections, immigration won the referendum
May seems to prioritise controlling immigration over everything else.
[quote=binners ]I think theres a possibility that this facade could very rapidly come crumbling down, because behind the scenes the Tory's are as fundamentally divided as labour
It's got to the point where I'm pinning my hopes on them being so incompetent that they screw it up so much it becomes quite clear to the majority what a bad idea it all is and somebody finds a way to save a bit of face whilst giving up on the whole thing.
Because I've pretty much given up on the idea of there being some secret plan which is going to make it all right.
The thing is, if they **** it up enough they might just make Corbyn electable. I reckon Farron already is, though he's clearly not going to be in a position to form a government himself - the electorate really could be sold a package of the Lib Dems putting a brake on what are seen as Labour's more extreme tendencies, and it's certainly something I could vote for when the alternative is the current bunch of loons.
The economy won the Tories the last 2 elections, immigration won the referendum
It [b]lost[/b] the Tories the referendum, since they were pro-remain.
What a fantastic turn of phrase 🙂vainglorious ineptitude.
Klunk. I don't know how anyone with anything between their ears can look at this unfolding slow motion car crash and conclude anything else.
Like aracer, I'm hoping that this whole thing implodes, through shear incompetence and back-biting, before they get the chance to do the vast amount of damage their ****-wittery is surely capable of
Speaking as a person of Wales I'm also keen to hear this point that they may have.
Fairplay 🙂
Speak to some then although I'd suggest not calling them uneducated racists if you want a sensible reply / not a punch in the face
I see the frenetic doom and gloom clickbait continues, going to be a good quarter for newspaper ad revenues.
Meanwhile in actual "it's happening" news Calais Jungle is being dismantled today with migrants being moved far away and being given choice of claiming Asylum in France or deportation. Exactly the opposite of what Remainers told us would happen. French press reporting many 100's of far left British anarchists trying to disrupt the operation.
So you haven't been to Ebbw Vale you just thought you would try and score a point 🙄
What about the lie you pedalled about Clinton having had a stroke, are you going to brush that off with a emoticon????
Also as a person of Wales I was left dumbfounded by the result in Wales but then we have managed to elect members of the English Nationalist Party to the Assembly 😯
The result in Wales was a good example of the massive failure of the remain camp to get their message over (Labour and Plaid) and the belief in the lies spread by the leave camp - I had their leaflet through the door.
This says it all really:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale
[quote=jambalaya ]Exactly the opposite of what Remainers told us would happen.
All of them? Because I'm a remainer (and proud of it) and don't think I've ever commented on it. Why would I when it's irrelevant to Brexit?
Speak to some then
What makes you think I don't? Half my family are from a few Valleys over. And even some of them are uneducated racists.
Exactly the opposite of what Remainers told us would happen.
IIRC the remain campaign was full of what *might* happen. You appreciate there's a difference, right? Only an idiot campaigns based on what's definitely going to happen.
don't know how anyone with anything between their ears can look at this unfolding slow motion car crash and conclude anything else.
IMF apologises and admits they exaggerated Brexit doom and gloom "forecast"
UK manufacturing up
Services all time record quarter
UK highest growth of G7
Calais camp dismantled
European exporters facing overly strong €/£. Irish farmers receive €150m emergency support
Binners the economic bumps we may see in the UK are but the smallest trifle in comparison to the financial time bomb that is the eurozone Sovereign Debt crises
Why would a bank spend £££ moving staff to a higher cost higher tax location when for (say) 2-3% they can have an EU based entity front (white label) their products. Add to that genuine EU/European business run out of London is tiny - eg Lloyds Insurance 4% of their turnover
And we're back in la la land....
Us idiot remainers eh (actually I think it was captain Loser himself David Cameron who said the border would shift to Dover)
I wonder what the next French president thinks?
http://news.sky.com/story/alain-jupp233-calls-for-uk-border-to-move-from-calais-to-kent-10625773
As for uneducated racists in Wales, having lived there for 3 years, well they have their fair share and we all know...
Not everyone who voted Brexit is a racist but every racist voted for Brexit'
IIRC the remain campaign was full of what *might* happen.
Like the £350m claim then 😉
Remain seemed pretty certain Le Touquet agreement would be dismantled and The Jungle would be in Kent !
My point stands - the Remainers doom and gloim has been shown to be a ridiculous exaggeration and cost Cameron and Osbourne their jobs (EDIT: kimbers "Captain Loser" I like that although Osbourne has come off worse. Jupe won't be President, if UMP pick Jupe over Sarkozy (unlikely I think) then imo Le Penn will win)
[quote=jambalaya ]My point stands - the Remainers doom and gloim has been shown to be a ridiculous exaggeration and cost Cameron and Osbourne their jobs
I'm fairly sure most of the predictions of the remain campaign were for what was going to happen after we left the EU...
What will come first ,house price collapse or euro crash?
The economy won the Tories the last 2 elections, immigration won the referendum
I think it's more likely that Murdoch and Dacre won the last two elections for the Tories.
Imagine if any other party other than the Tories were in government and had simultaneously borked the economy with an entirely self-created constitutional crisis, led us headlong into a bitter struggle with the EU, decapitated our banking industry by precipitating the migration of several large financial institutions AND had failed to stem the rising tide of resurgent racism in our streets.
I mean, they'd basically be unelectable forever.
The ineptitude of the current government is such that they're unable to accept that anger about immigration has been stoked by a nefarious media and that many communities have been abandoned to low paid and low value jobs, while the provision of housing has been wholly inadequate. Domestic policy has been rotten for best part of forty years and if anything positive comes out of the Referendum, I hope it's the realisation that politicians will have to actually DO something to help people, not concentrate on making the existence of corporations more comfortable.
Remain seemed pretty certain Le Touquet agreement would be dismantled and The Jungle would be in Kent !
Really? Link?
the Remainers doom and gloim has been shown to be a ridiculous exaggeration
That's an outrageous twisting of facts. You know damn well that this shit is only just beginning, but you're bullshitting just to try and boost your own position.
If you've got any honesty, ADMIT that there is plenty of time for bad things to happen and they still could. Now, on this thread.
Remain seemed pretty certain Le Touquet agreement would be dismantled and The Jungle would be in Kent !
You cant say for a certainty this wont happen, what is going to happen next year in Calais, what incentive is there for French authorities to stop asylum seekers, not their circus not their monkeys after the trigger is pulled.
You do know that there have been numerous camps in or around Calais Sangatte closed in 2014.
Not everyone who voted Brexit is a racist but every racist voted for Brexit'
Sure ? EU provides for unlimited access to predominantly white Europeans. Brexit will see a far more international mix of immigrants
That's an outrageous twisting of facts. You know damn well that this shit is only just beginning, but you're bullshitting just to try and boost your own position
You're new here aren't you.... 😉
Brexit will see a far more international mix of immigrants
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........................ 😯
My point stands - the Remainers doom and gloim has been shown to be a ridiculous exaggeration
Erm... you are aware that nothing has actually happened yet, right?
I find the 'see... we told you it'd all be fine' crowing attitude of the brexiteers to be absolutely terrifying. But then I find most of their nonsensical utterances pretty scary.
its as if everythign is done and dusted and its all worked out brilliantly. We haven't even started yet. And the people in charge are a bunch of buffoons who couldn't run a bath, never mind the most politically and economically complex negotiations in our countries history
Out of interest, did the Tories really win the last two elections?
IIRC the remain campaign was full of what *might* happen.
Like the £350m claim then
I don't think they ever claimed they 'might' spend it on the NHS, they said 'lets' spend it on the NHS.
Seems pretty unambiguous to me. But then I'm not a deceitful, self-serving, lying little xenophobic cockweasel.....
[img] 
[/img]
looks like The Great Repeal Bill, wont be including all those pesky EU mandated workers rights, after all
analysis of what post brexit tarrifs would look like
Our analysis shows that if the UK leaves the EU without a trade deal UK exporters could face the potential impact of £5.2 billion in tariffs on goods being sold to the EU. However, EU exporters will also face £12.9 billion in tariffs on goods coming to the UK.
Exporters to the UK in 22 of the 27 remaining EU member states face higher tariffs costs when selling their goods than UK exporters face when selling goods to those countries.
German exporters would have to deal with the impact of £3.4 billion of tariffs on goods they export to the UK. UK exporters in return would face £0.9 billion of tariffs on goods going to Germany.
French exporters could face £1.4 billion in tariffs on their products compared to UK exporters facing £0.7 billion. A similar pattern exists for all the UK’s major EU trading partners.
The biggest impact will be on exports of goods relating to vehicles, with tariffs in the region of £1.3 billion being applied to UK car-related exports going to the EU. This compares to £3.9 billion for the EU, including £1.8 billion in tariffs being applied to German car-related exports.
collectively EU would loose out the most but on a country by country basis we would be much worse off. farmers also have to deal with the loss of CAP , ouch!
Im not sure how you square that with what individual countries will want out of a post Brexit trade deal
http://www.civitas.org.uk/reports_articles/potential-post-brexit-tariff-costs-for-eu-uk-trade/
Currency down 20%
IMF Forecasts far worse than pre Brexit
Billions pumped into the economy
Interest rates forced down
Inflation rising
Manufacturing costs up
Millions of people in limbo
The problem was that we assumed NHS meant hospitals.
They really meant Nasty Home Secetary.
My point stands - the Remainers doom and gloim has been shown to be a ridiculous exaggeration
What you're conveniently forgetting/omitting in your wildly optimistic analysis, is that the predictions of economic disaster were/are predicated on us invoking A50 and actually leaving the EU. That has been postponed by at least 9 months, so these predictions can't yet be compared to anything. It would appear to me that given many indicators are now tipping in the wrong direction when nothing much has happened, come the day A50 is invoked, the original 'doom and gloom' predictions may begin to look rather optimistic.
What the French press is really reporting on Calais: [url= http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/10/24/01016-20161024LIVWWW00013-calais-jungle-migrants-evacuation-direct.php ]Figaro[/url].
They'll find their way over the channel one way or another one day.
[i]German exporters would have to deal with the impact of £3.4 billion of tariffs on goods they export to the UK.[/I]
Or their customers will.
When someone is buying a basic consumable is the seller that has a problem if their costs increase, but when a large volume of those sales are people 'choosing' a product due to other reasons than cost it is then the customer who will face those increased costs.
Sturgeon not impressed with May
Sturgeon asked if she's "undermining" government's EU position. Answer; "You can't undermine something that doesn't exist."
😯Sturgeon sounding less than impressed with promise of 'hotline' to David Davis: "I don't want a lot of silent calls".
Top responses! I can't disagree!
Anyone else think Sturgeon would be running the UK by now if she wanted to?
Sturgeon talking sense and saying basic facts out loud.
There, the Tory party has even made me admire Nicola 😯
Nichola Sturgeon is bang on!
Surely this absolute farce can't go on for much longer? I reckon Theresa, who was being hailed as the next Thatcher, could pretty soon be staring down the barrel of becoming the next Gordon Brown. This 'strategy' of saying nothing, and allowing things to just drift, while the economy tanks, and her incompetent preening minions bicker with each other, is totally unsustainable. Yet she appears to have a 'plan' that involves crossing her fingers, and hoping she can hold out til April. At which point... what?
What an utter ****ing shambles! She may end up making GB look competent, and effective
Who on earth would want to invest in the UK now?
I reckon Theresa, who was being hailed as the next Thatcher, could pretty soon be staring down the barrel of becoming the next Gordon Brown.
It's worse than GB. He at least lasted 6 months before it went t*ts up, May has had less than 3 and is already looking completely screwed. The polls may be favourable still but not for much longer once it becomes apparent to the wider public who don't follow politics that she hasn't got a clue what she's doing.
She'd have some sympathy if it wasn't for the fact that she's put 3 incompetent preening idiots in charge of the single most important issue to affect the UK in 70 years. That decision is going to bury her IMO, especially if Hammond turns against her which is entirely likely if they carry on with project economic suicide.
From what I can work out, May's plan involves relying on the racists to vote for her so she can stay in power and not giving a stuff what's actually good for the country. Because the people have spoken and they don't like foreigners.
She'd have some sympathy if it wasn't for the fact that she's put 3 incompetent preening idiots in charge of the single most important issue to affect the UK in 70 years.
There isn't still any chance she did that just to let them dig their own graves is there? Because she's not giving out lots of hints that she fundamentally disagrees with them if it is - it's only that it seems so ridiculous that there still seems a possibility of the secret plan, all outward indications are that she actually appointed the 3 stooges because she agrees with the direction they want to go.
I wonder how ambitious Hammond is?
All together now!Hotline
[i]
I know when that hotline bling
That can only mean one thing
Ever since I left the city, you, you, you
You and me we just don't get along
You make me feel like I did you wrong
Going places where you don't belong
Ever since I left the city,
you, you got exactly what you asked for
Running out of pages in your passport
Hanging with some girls I've never seen before[/i]
The lyrics strangely fit somehow.
If Carney and Hammond walk what chance of a run on the pound then?
What i am reading on this mornings meeting with the regions isn't filling me with confidence. Compare to Wallonia torpedoing CETAS to see what regional governance can do.
There isn't still any chance she did that just to let them dig their own graves is there?
Still to busy digging her own.
Torsoinalake just won brexit
Ok amusing but just FOS/stirring
So lets be clear
What EXACTLY are people expecting May to say?
We know the base case - hard brexit. Thats clear from all sides
We know that there will be some fudges eg, financial services, cars etc
After that the rest is to be negotiated with 27 separate states having the power of veto - what can you say now?
(Of course there is the real horse trading going on behind the scenes too)
Brexshit is a negotiation. Its not us presenting as series of demands in the way Nicola likes to. Thats simply naive.
molgrips - Member
Who on earth would want to invest in the UK now?
I would if I were an investor because it is easy money to earn considering it is so easy to rip people off in the UK. What else do you want? Legislation? Bureaucrats?
You lot got rip off most of the time so I see no reason why this will change in future.
aracer - Member
From what I can work out, May's plan involves relying on the racists to vote for her so she can stay in power and not giving a stuff what's actually good for the country. Because the people have spoken and they don't like foreigners.
I think you need to be more inventive with the way you describe people as racists just because they have voted for Brexit or Tories.
Dealing with Sturgeon is easy just say No to another referendum in this generation.kimbers - Member
Sturgeon not impressed with May
Then encourage Sturgeon to keep banging on the same issues at every opportunity in return keeps saying "Not in this generation".
Then see how long Sturgeon will stay as an old lady leading SNP into the next generation.
What I want May to say is "After having looked at it, hard brexit too damaging, so we will take freedom of movement in return for single market."
She can easily do this without losing face; polls seem to support it tentatively; and we get to preserve business confidence and look like we're serious about being a good place to invest.
I can't imagine her really going for hard brexit unless she really is a lunatic.
The Financial pages of the Guardian have been saying for weeks that business leaders who've had meetings with the 3 chimps, designed to reassure them, have come out with it having had the complete opposite effect.
Whatever they're cooking up, all behind closed doors, without any oversight, whoever has heard the most from the 3 not-so-wise monkeys about Project Economic Suicide has been the most alarmed.
it all bodes well....
From what I can work out, May's plan involves relying on the racists to vote for her so she can stay in power and not giving a stuff what's actually good for the country.
I fear this is true. Her speeches last year laid out the foundation of an [b]"I am the champion of those who fear/dislike immigration"[/b] ticket, long before the referendum. And, you only need about a third of the country to vote for you to get a majority in parliament. Only a fool would suggest that it isn't true that those who are anti-immigrant are more like to get out and vote than those who are indifferent or for it, given a clear message that they are 'being listened to'.
There may will be all sorts of "surveys" suggesting people only support reducing immigration if it means they will be personally better off… but I find them highly suspicious because I suspect:
A) many of these people seem to think that "they can't get any worse off" because things are already tough for them.
B) if they can be convinced that pain now means jam tomorrow, and that will be jam from fruit not picked by immigrants, many will go with it.
That is the action of a political lunatic that can only comes from the desperate EU loony politicians.molgrips - Member
What I want May to say is "After having looked at it, hard brexit too damaging, so we will take freedom of movement in return for single market."
Only the shameless would argue in such a way and only the arrogance of the pointless makes such argument.She can easily do this without losing face; polls seem to support it tentatively; and we get to preserve business confidence and look like we're serious about being a good place to invest.
The only lunatics are those that cannot accept the inevitable of leaving EU. They hang on so desperately by objecting at every non-opportunity they perceived as "bright ideas".I can't imagine her really going for hard brexit unless she really is a lunatic.
I can't imagine her really going for hard brexit unless she really is a lunatic.
The worrying fact is though, you'd have to be a lunatic to want to be PM after Cameron resigned.
The thing is, our business practises are based on EU membership. Unpicking it all is going to be seriously hard work and would leave us at a disadvantage.
I can't see how people can't see that.
What I want May to say is "After having looked at it, hard brexit too damaging, so we will take freedom of movement in return for single market."
so back to where we started (they will demand some contribution) but without the influece
The bollocks of Brexshit in a nutshell
Look, the U.K. has had enough of this failed brexit experiment. It's time you all just accepting that and moved on!
Yes, and the fact that's the best possible outcome is depressing.
keep the racists onside - tick
keep the nats offside and kill labour - tick
Tories keep power for the foreseeable...
She's no fool is she!!!
The even more worrying fact is that we have no shortage of lunatics opposing the result of the referendum.milleboy - Member
The worrying fact is though, you'd have to be a lunatic to want to be PM after Cameron resigned.I can't imagine her really going for hard brexit unless she really is a lunatic.
The shameless even try to offer their "expertise" in telling the PM to reverse the decision, I mean what absolutely shameless lunacy.
You really are from another planet Chewkw 🙂
I can't imagine her really going for hard brexit unless she really is a lunatic.
I couldn't disgree more. Yes, there is probably only a minority of people who would want a "hard Brexit", but this is exactly the minority of people she wants/needs to win the votes of. Remember, the referendum is done… from now on she only needs the votes of a substantial manority of those who'll get out and vote at the next GE. There is no need to chase a policy that the majority of people want, if a huge chunk of that majority would never vote for her under a Tory ticket anyway.
As for the long term economic impact? Well, the damning of warnings as "Project Fear" probably means she has less to fear there than traditional "It's the economy stupid" political wisdom suggests. Everything has changed (at least for now) and people what to feel good, and don't believe experts that don't say what they want to hear.
[quote=chewkw ]I think you need to be more inventive with the way you describe people as racists just because they have voted for Brexit or Tories.
You'll have to point out to me where I did that. I didn't even imply it. What I was saying is something completely different.
I can except that a depressingly high percentage of the country are racist morons, I just can't accept ruining my country on the back of advisory referendum.
I can't see how people can't see that.
Many people do, and don't care, because they think of "business" as "them", rather than all of us!
I couldn't disgree more.
This. And... she has to enter negotiations on the basis that a hard brexit is just fine. Regardless of whether it is or not.
Mays's ratings aren't going to fall until the press turn on her, cant see the Murdoch rags having a go, god knows what the Mail will do.
Which of these referendums would pass in the current climate?
Hanging.
Corporal punishment in schools.
Ban gays.
Ban mosques.
National service.
I'm sure hanging would go through no problem.
Yes, there is probably only a minority of people who would want a "hard Brexit", but this is exactly the minority of people she wants/needs to win the votes of
You can't win elections with a ****ed economy. That's a golden rule. If people aren't doing well they'll want change, regardless.
Read my posts on this page that argue why the "Golden Rule" doesn't necessarily apply at the moment.
I am an alien.molgrips - Member
You really are from another planet Chewkw
As much as you are good at hiding behind words, your intention is as clear as the pages in the book for all to read.aracer - Member
You'll have to point out to me where I did that. I didn't even imply it. What I was saying is something completely different.
Can I vote twice for hanging? To make twice as likely it will happen?zippykona - Member
Which of these referendums would pass in the current climate?I'm sure hanging would go through no problem.