Very conciliatory, recognizes significant dissatisfaction with EU throughout Europe, meeting with others heads of Government to discuss. There will be a lot of noise from the European die hards because they recognize there is now a real risk to the project.
precisely, if they had recognised this before, or not just ignored it, then there wouldn't be so much unrest around Europe and people might think things were a bit less autocratic, and the UK may not have voted to leave.
Brought this on themselves I reckon, by not addressing the most important of Camerons issues.
We should be shouting at Boris to make it happen
Abso-bleedin-lutely.
Gove, Johnson et al have played a massive part in this. They have got their way. Now we need to put them to the test. They need to start feeling the heat right about now.
I hope they have a jolly good piss-up tonight, because tomorrow the hangover starts - and they've got to sort it out.
Why did they not have a campaign where every person who had a conviction to remain would try their best to persuade a leaver to change their mind and support them with positive reasons?
I engaged with one and changed them, another and failed. I didn't know any more. Which is probably the issue. Insularity.
In retrospect I wish I had done more to try to sway people. I never sank to the levels that seem to be prevalent on here.
Why didn't you, how would you challenge people who lied through their teeth and stuck fingers in their ears when challenged, how about those that dismissed all the "so called" experts as being biased? The out campaign was constructed to distrust and doubt those that opposed it and now I'm sorry to say the reality has arrived.
I feel sick. I wish we could go back. I've not felt like this about anything non-personal before.
Maybe I should have been out knocking on doors. My staunch conservative elderly neighbourhood would have been hard to persuade but I didn't try. 🙄
Read wrong chart - Ignore
What's more it seems to have been glossed over that whilst there might be will in Scotland for another referendum that isn't something they have control over - it is in the hands of Westminster, and I can't see them being in any hurry to give Scotland another vote, not at least until well after any exit from the EU is complete
Can you think of a party in Scotland that might use that 100% to their advantage? I posted on the last page that the SNP will want Boris(or similar) to have his feet under the table a while before making a move. I am now 100% certain that the UK will split up with not just Scotland but NI going.
If the SNP holds a ref and the support is overwhelming, would that then force a pressured Westminster who's voters are following the subsidy junky line, to cut us loose and cave in? If folk can follow the bollocks spouted by leave, then the above is hardly a flight of fancy.
...on which note, apologies if it's already been done, but I've not seen it mentioned (I did only skim most of the last 20 pages and haven't read much of the previous 180):
In 1979 the Scottish Devolution Referendum had a similar proportion of the popular vote in favour - yet that didn't result in the formation of a Scottish Assembly. Why? Because there was a 40% threshold of the total electorate in order for change to happen.
Only 37% of the total electorate voted to leave the EU. Now of course no threshold has been set in this referendum - to have done so would be nonsensical as it's not a real binding referendum. But the precedent for referendums in the UK is there if anybody is brave enough to refer to it.
Only 37% of the total electorate voted to leave the EU. Now of course no threshold has been set in this referendum - to have done so would be nonsensical as it's not a real binding referendum. But the precedent for referendums in the UK is there if anybody is brave enough to refer to it.
Personally I would have set it as min 50% of the electorate or 60% majority of voting. Wanting to change something should be harder to achieve than the status quo.
Anyway no point arguing, just makes coming back a cheaper holiday next time
The amount of smug remainers who chose to insult and belittle leavers rather than engage with them and was massive.
You can't engage with BS - that is why its such a smart political strategy. Alex Salmond almost pulled it off, and Bojo and Co did.
There was the Beeb's political analysis guest (John someone from Uni of Stirling) stating this morning that the #1 reason why Leave won was they identified a current problem (sic) in immigration (no really) and give a solution (keep the buggers out) whereas Remain could only identify future problems.
So moral of the story in the post-truth politics world - is don't worry about the truth. Focus on one/two things and run hard with them irrespective of the truth. Preferably with a side dish of prejudice.
Modern democracies operate within a framework of rationalism. Dismantle it and the space is filled by prejudice. Fear counts above reason; anger above evidence. Lies claim equal status with facts. Soon enough, migrants — and Muslims especially — replace heretics and witches as the targets of public rage.
Quite - the FT
[quote=duckman ]If the SNP holds a ref
They can't (not without agreement from Westminster) they have no mandate to do so. They can make a lot of noise about it, but they can't legally hold a referendum.
Why did they not have a campaign where every person who had a conviction to remain would try their best to persuade a leaver to change their mind and support them with positive reasons?
I tried on a three poeple, but they just kept spouting off about immigrants. Which made me sad.
[quote=mikewsmith ]given the expectations leave has created it's very optimistic.
Well reality is about to bite those expectations. Something has to give. My apologies, I'm probably being too optimistic here, but somebody has to be.
[quote=mikewsmith ]how would you challenge people who lied through their teeth and stuck fingers in their ears when challenged, how about those that dismissed all the "so called" experts as being biased?
That might have been the case for the hardcore - those whose minds you wouldn't have changed whatever you said or did - but there was a significant amount of softer voters who were more open to being provided with good arguments against leaving. I doubt those people appreciated being insulted, if anything it probably entrenched their views. I should know, I nearly was one (I'm not ashamed to admit it - I worked out the implications in time).
edit: I'd put those spouting off about immigrants as being the hardcore - the reality of that argument was so obvious that you did have to genuinely be a bit daft to believe it. Plenty of Leave voters who had no problem with immigration though.
hes grumpy like me..
Good swerve; fact remains, we will be off.
Well reality is about to bite those expectations. Something has to give. My apologies, I'm probably being too optimistic here, but somebody has to be.
Yep but it's now too late.
I doubt those people appreciated being insulted, if anything it probably entrenched their views. I should know, I nearly was one (I'm not ashamed to admit it - I worked out the implications in time).
Given the number of times the leave "facts" were exposed as BS you had to be trying really hard to ignore it.
edit for your edit
Leave still have not and at no point during the campaign gave any info/reason or fact as to how the UK could be improved outside of the EU, or how the EU actually held the UK back. Now is the moment of truth.... all those slogans are about to be tested
The whole "immigrants taking our jobs" is rubbish of course, as the point of the EU is that it is reciprocal, So if an immigrant takes your job, go to his country and take his. Except chances are you are probably a lazy tosser so can't be bothered (which is the real issue here)
I feel sick. I wish we could go back.
Me too.
well i turned up to work today feeling sick and had a massive amount of menschenhass. the lads at work told me i was no longer eligable to work until further notice... so i went for a swim.
still felt sick.
now just feeling kinda empty.
More worrying than just the uk is the effect on the whole europe 'project'. With the far right getting stronger all of the time this is a bad moment for this to happen. I cant see the uk getting off lightly with this 🙁
Aracer - bet they try anyway. And kicking up a fuss in a time of uncertainty is often incredibly effective.
They can't (not without agreement from Westminster) they have no mandate to do so. They can make a lot of noise about it, but they can't legally hold a referendum.
Maybe but BJ is no fan of Scotland, if he is next PM then he'll hand it to us on a plate.
So please don't label them all as racists or ignorant
They might not all have been racists, but they have certainly been grossly ignorant of the reality of brexit
[quote=mikewsmith ]Yep but it's now too late.
Not really - we're talking about the way forward here and you seem to be suggesting that the expectations of the Leave side will limit what we can do. I'm simply pointing out that at some point soon the reality of those expectations will become so clear that they can't be ignored and we will no longer be limited by them.
The vote was to leave the eu. How do you now stay? The eu was never the problem.
[quote=maxtorque ]The whole "immigrants taking our jobs" is rubbish of course, as the point of the EU is that it is reciprocal, So if an immigrant takes your job, go to his country and take his. Except chances are you are probably a lazy tosser so can't be bothered (which is the real issue here)
That is a bit of a silly argument though - because different living costs in different countries mean that flow of labour one way makes a lot more sense than the other (I'm not suggesting the original suggestion is correct, simply that that's a poor counter).
It's very quiet at Number 11. Where's Gideon?
Blame
Cameron, Cameron ,Cameron...
No one voted based on the Brexit lies, we were just sick of the same, with no end in sight.
Austerity, we were never "All in this together" and now ironically Camerons looking for a Job along with the guys n girls from Port Talbot & Cadburys & Citroen & Dagenham etc. etc..
P.S. little tip - it's a bit thick to take away housewives pensions in the months before a referendum
and getting Mr.Spiresau to sit down to tea with Keith Vaz was a highlight too.
No need for a Chancellor when you have no economy....
Austerity, we were never "All in this together" and now ironically Camerons looking for a Job along with the guys n girls from Port Talbot & Cadburys & Citroen & Dagenham etc. etc..
And now we've shown them - oh yes, we have voted to extend austerity by another 1-2 years at best.
That showed 'em.
This referendum result should be put in the dictionary as the definition of a pyrrhic victory.
Morning Stanley moving 2000 bankers according to BBC website.
I would have thought Banks would be happy to stay.
BlameCameron, Cameron ,Cameron...
Alternatively - Blame the EU
Cameron went to them and said "give us a better deal, that respects the concerns of the British people, or mark my words, we'll be off"
They thought that Britain was bluffing, Their arrogance led to them not believing that we would really do it.
They were wrong
Wheres Gideon?
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Sources at Morgan Stanley tell BBC it's already begun process of moving 2,000 London based investment banking staff to Dublin or Frankfurt
Oh yes, we a really going to miss the bankers.
Does that mean next time their greed tanks the world economy, we will be exempt?
No one voted based on the Brexit lies, we were just sick of the same, with no end in sight.
massive assumption of other people's motives being the same as yours? R5Live just intereviewed workers in a factory in Midland:
"I voted to leave because of the 350 million that could be spent on the NHS. I've woken up today to be told that was a lie. I'm in turmoil"
igm - MemberAracer - bet they try anyway. And kicking up a fuss in a time of uncertainty is often incredibly effective
One man's fuss is another's elected reps looking out for their constituents interests.
Wheres Gideon?
He's tweeting about G7 bank liquidity (well someone in his team is under his name).
IMF and Airbus saying the divorce should work together to minimise any economic damage.
FTSE 100 not looking too bad at all now, with some winners.
And so it begins.
Morgan Stanley announce 2000 london jobs to go to Dublin or Frankfurt.
oops, beaten to it.
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The thing that appeared to be lost on all those who claimed migrants were taking their jobs is, if a bloke who can barely speak the language can travel half way across europe, with no contacts, and then take your job....you must have been pretty rubbish at your job in the first place...
I also find it quite ironic that the areas that voted to leave will be the hardest hit by this disaster. If Redcar thinks it has austerity now, just wait until our man Boris unloads the full fat version on them...
What a thoroughly depressing morning....
The banks can't keep a good part of their operation in the city as they need the passporting arrangements financial services firm enjoy.
They want to get it done now and not in two years as it will take time to get the new operation up and running.
London has suddenly become a lot less attractive to the very firms that (like it or loathe it) power this country's economy.
But it's ok - now we're free of all the red tape that made London attractive and to trade freely across Europe we'll be so much better off...
No one voted based on the Brexit lies, we were just sick of the same, with no end in sight.
So vote for anything that is different....regardless of the consequences. Brilliant.
"I voted to leave because of the 350 million that could be spent on the NHS. I've woken up today to be told that was a lie. I'm in turmoil"
Similar was reported on 5live approx 20mins ago, they interviewed a woman who voted to leave citing that was one of her main reasons.
One man's fuss is another's elected reps looking out for their constituents interests.
Undeniably Duckman
