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The more I think about it… the more the Cherry amendment (or a bill based on a similar idea) is essential (that is giving MPs a vote at the final hour to revoke if it is the only way to stop a No Deal Brexit at the time), and without it Johnson can find a way to default us into a No Deal Brexit… if only by finding ways to make an extension unpalatable to other EU countries.
Very very sweary
Regardless of whether leave or remain voter it's just bizarre that we've reached a point where the polls suggest the UK pops feels a load of Old Etonian millionaires are the best people to represent them and have their interests at heart.
In years to come suspect will be seen as the biggest con job ever.
@Kelvin, very much so, MPs need to accept that they are two options, neither very appealing, they either revoke or they move for a referendum and send the decision back to voters. Both are risky and being honest I don't believe that another referendum is a sensible move without major work being done about prosecuting those involved in illegal activity in the 2016 ref and working to ensure a free and fair vote.
a load of Old Etonian millionaires are the best people to represent them and have their interests at heart.
In years to come suspect will be seen as the biggest con job ever.
Exactly what has happened every time the Conservative's win an election. Their job is to fool the public into thinking they are the best people to represent them and they largely carry it off.
Having a media that could only report facts and not political opinion would be a good start to reversing that.
Lawyer on r4 the other day said that if Johnson refuses to do as directed an injunction can be sought to force him, if he ignores that he can be held in contempt of court and banged up.
As I stated earlier, it was also reported that the EU would consider the passing of the no deal legislation as if the letter had been sent, irrespective of if bojo does his homework.
So it seems to me that if he didn't write the letter it would be an empty gesture with jail time at the end of it. Perfect!
I look forward to the DUPs faces when there is a hard border with Eire and another with an independent Scotland.
So it seems to me that if he didn’t write the letter
I saw Javid on Marr this morning, adamant that BoJo wouldn't be asking for an extension and that we'd be leaving on 31st,but strangely he wouldn't answer any questions on how this is supposed to happen. My first thoughts were that Cummings had spotted a loophole in the law, but then if its been through both houses you'd hope that any scope for interpretation had already been noted and challenged. So then I figured this was just blatent electioneering as admitting any sort of weakness now will start the stampede from tories to bxp, and once they've gone it's going to be doubly hard for team Boris to win them back.
Nick Cohen made a good point in the Observer today. If Boris got banged up for contempt of court, he’d likely end up, given his profile, on the nonces wing in Belmarsh
I’m sure his ‘I’d rather be dead in a ditch’ protestations will go the same way as him lying down in front of the bulldozers at Heathrow
It still absolutely baffles me that there are sentient beings who haven’t seen through his totally insincere, blustering bullshit years ago
If you want to change the U.K. you need to represent the views of the majority, not try to impose what you think it best on everyone, it doesn’t work like that
No you don't. You set out a plan and then you sell it to your electorate.
You're not imposing anything - you don't have to vote for the political party that doesn't best fit your world view.
Binners raves on about Corbyn but he could just support another party. That's the bit I don't get. His views are served by other parties (To the best of my last limited forum knowledge.)
I come from a similar background to him (from what I can gather) but I have more in common with traditional Labour values than he does. Corbyn reflects those values. That'll do for me.
All leaders of all parties are completely entangled with Brexit, there is no one politician who has got the answer. And no one Labour leader that wouldn't have the same battle on their hands.
If only it was that simple … FPTP
it was also reported that the EU would consider the passing of the no deal legislation as if the letter had been sent, irrespective of if bojo does his homework
But does he have to accept the extension if the EU offer it, or can he just say, unilaterally, we're leaving? I have no idea.
Not if no deal legislation is passed or no other deal agreed. Stalemate? Then what?
I believe Macron was also considering vetoing the extention.
I believe Macron was also considering vetoing the extention.
There was a great spectator article suggesting Boris has done a deal with Macron. A deal for fishing and wine in exchange for a veto.
Comedy genius if he pulled that off.
In years to come suspect will be seen as the biggest con job ever.
That's been obvious for years.
There was a great spectator article suggesting Boris has done a deal with Macron. A deal for fishing and wine in exchange for a veto.
Comedy genius if he pulled that off.
While I'd have no doubt that Johnson would sell out our fishermen in a flash if he could..
Macron is a lot smarter than bozo !
I'd also take the word of an 'expert' over the spectator who have missed the mark time & again on Brexit!
https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1170675088406077440?s=19
why in a Brexiteers mind are Nigerian Nurses, ****stani Doctors, India engineers, Bangladeshi care assistants and Aussie Bar Keeps more "acceptable" than Polish Plumbers, Estonian Electricians, Swedish Engineers, Hungarian Computer Programmers and French Nurses ?
Who say they are more acceptable? The Brexiters I have talked about it with don't think that. Immigration is bad full stop.
why in a Brexiteers mind are Nigerian Nurses, ****stani Doctors, India engineers, Bangladeshi care assistants and Aussie Bar Keeps more “acceptable” than Polish Plumbers, Estonian Electricians, Swedish Engineers, Hungarian Computer Programmers and French Nurses
Hmm you suggesting Bracists aren't consistent in their racism 🙂
@kimbers, I hope you are right… but I would not rule out several EU countries saying… “you’ve had your time, now choose… WA, No Deal, or a referendum… off you go, now”…
MPs should have given themselves the option to vote to revoke in the final hour… only producing legislation that is entirely dependant on the EU extending could prove to have been a massive misjudgement…
Is that the logic?
Yes. As I understand it.
Labour change the rules so it is an option.
Momentum, and some others, feel it should have been mandatory and therefore want to always do it even if, in most cases, its just a checkbox exercise.
Whether or not its overly useful is a different question and why I avoid that level of politics. All I would note, again, though is this is completely in line with the other major parties so not really worth getting het up over and grabbing the pitchforks and torches unless they actually start voting people out.
The Brexiters I have talked about it with don’t think that. Immigration is bad full stop.
Yup. Indeed there are examples of some of the dimmer ones thinking brexit would stop those Nigerians, ****stanis etc coming to the UK.
That said there was the specific campaigning aimed at the Asian community arguing that if we left then it would be better chance of more immigration from Commonwealth countries. They had the "Save our Curry Houses" brexit campaign.
Whether or not its overly useful is a different question and why I avoid that level of politics.
Well, the trigger votes have already led to MPs leaving the party … so I guess that not everyone has your sanguine indifferent view of them.
so I guess that not everyone has your sanguine indifferent view of them.
You seem to be missing the point. As I have already said it will impact some MPs but just having it on their agenda doesnt mean much in itself.
If it wasnt Momentum policy to always run reselection then it would. As it stands though it is meaningless unless you know a lot about their local politics which I dont and I really doubt you do.
why in a Brexiteers mind are Nigerian Nurses, ****stani Doctors, India engineers, Bangladeshi care assistants and Aussie Bar Keeps more “acceptable” than Polish Plumbers, Estonian Electricians, Swedish Engineers, Hungarian Computer Programmers and French Nurses ?
Ah, but all those dark people illegally sailing to Italy, or coming through Turkey, then making their way to the UK would be excluded if we weren't in the EU.
https://labourlist.org/2019/08/how-labours-trigger-ballot-system-works/
https://labourlist.org/2019/08/how-to-avoid-failing-a-trigger-ballot/
Some light reading for anyone considering taking @dissonance’s comments at face value.
Bozos first trip to Ireland as PM?
What are the odds that there's a classic Johnson gaffe that hardens everyone's resolve?
Some light reading for anyone considering taking @dissonance’s comments at face value.
Feel free to actually list where I am wrong rather than trying to imply it.
Come on.
Give some facts.
Remember once a ****ing gain. The question is whether or not the fact momentum have it listed as an item on their list actually means anything. Not the finer details of what the full process means.
What are the odds that there’s a classic Johnson gaffe that hardens everyone’s resolve?
My money's on another 'Road to Mandalay' incident involving some Loyalist songs and a bowler hat.
😁
Feel free to actually list where I am wrong rather than trying to imply it.
As you said, you can’t be bothered with the details of how this process works, or how it is being used politically… for those that can be bothered, I provided some links that sketch out the basics.
unless they actually start voting people out.
Two things, thing one: why implement a change unless you expressly want to use it? Thing two, which battle do you the link the left of Labour is fighting? Long term control of the PLP, or beating the tories?
I provided some links that sketch out the basics.
No you finally bothered paying enough attention to find one highly partisan article.
You also missed all my references to the fact it could be used aggressively but lets deal with the context.
You and others got all excited over a tweet without having a clue as to the background, until you did a quick google now.
So whilst Johnson really is purging the tory party enmass from on high we have idiots comparing to Labour bringing their MP (re)selection process inline with the other parties (actually its still harder to deselect than for the others but hey why lets details get in the way).
Thing two,
I love leading questions like this. I would go for in general both although obviously there will be exceptions either way. After all its always more fun to hate someone with similar but slightly diverging views than someone with completely different views.
The same can be said of the centrists although I suspect there would be more exceptions in favour of the long term control of the party at least whilst it was under Cameron and co. As it is diving hard right the number will reduce.
To be fair to Labour, I'm not sure any MPs have been deselected have they? The Tories have managed to expel 21 in one go. Whereas, under the Labour leadership, their MPs have walked all by themselves.
You don’t think that they were pushed out? And that the trigger ballot process was one of the key tools used to do that?
I love leading questions like this
It isn't a leading question. I'm actually interested (amazing I know) what your thoughts on it are
You know like a discussion, rather than just stating argument positions
You don’t think that they were pushed out? And that the trigger ballot process was one of the key tools used to do that?
Oh no, absolutely not kelvin. How could such an innocent process be responsible for that? :o)
You don’t think that they were pushed out? And that the trigger ballot process was one of the key tools used to do that?
Certainly not in Mann's case.
In fact Mann is completely in sync with his constituents (EU). Mann has just been completely at odds with Corbyn from day one. That and a load of AS tittle tattle.
Mann has been the architect here.
I have never liked Mann, but that “tittle tattle” comment reminds me how one of Labour’s biggest problems is the way a small minority of those who seek to defend Corbyn, in all circumstances, respond to criticism of anything going on within the Labour ranks.
Thing two, which battle do you the link the left of Labour is fighting? Long term control of the PLP, or beating the tories?
Both I'd say, but one has to come before the other. The received wisdom that you can't beat the tories with left of centre policies is wrong. From day one I've seen the 'Corbyn' project as an effort to realign labour for the long term behind a pro-investment, progressive, redistributionist programme which looks something like a mix between Germany and the Scandinavian countries. To do that they need to abandon the short term election by election approach and look ahead, and they can only do that if they control* the party.
The problem with new labour was that they didn't see winning election as the means to an end, but the just the end. That's why they squandered they opportunity they had. Sure they made a lot of lives (temporarily) better by paying them off with benefits funded from borrowed money, but they didn't make any real attempt to radically change how our society and economics works so that it serves ordinary people. The labour leadership today are trying to do that, and it's a long term project.
*By 'control', what it really means is democratic control by the members, but seeing as the wishes of the membership and current leadership are tightly aligned it's pretty much the same.
Yup. Indeed there are examples of some of the dimmer ones thinking brexit would stop those Nigerians, ****stanis etc coming to the UK.
They haven't even noticed that since the referendum EU immigration has dropped but overall immigration is about the same - i.e. more non-EU. It's almost as if we need immigrant labour. Of course after no deal and the collapse of UK industry there won't be so many jobs to fill, so that'll fix it eh?
To do that they need to abandon the short term election by election approach and look ahead, and they can only do that if they control* the party.
& in the meantime whilst they are gaining control of the party whilst not defeating the Tories, Britain is crashing out of the EU thereby damaging the country in such a way as to make the socialist idyll much, much more difficult to achieve in the forseeable future. That's the plan?