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was anything good in the EU that we cant have without being in the EU?
well how about the worlds largest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-trade_zone ?
and as for science funding, even ignoring the fact the our government invests considerably less than similar countries in scientific research
and the bigger blow is the loss of collaborative networks that we were part of in the EU,
Being in the EU means we are part of a much larger whole, leaving reduces our access to so much knowledge, experience and facilities
by comparison China has created hundreds of new universities in the last few decades, there are currently 20 million students studying in China their research output has exploded in the last 10 years. Brexit hugely reduces our scientific footprint in the world.
Anyway, the way public opinion seems to be moving (already 5 times the majority for staying in the single market than the 3.8% majority to leave the EU) the only people who will want us to leave by March will be the Europeans.
PS - and Jamba and Chewkw
oh and on a more utlitarian level no more booze cruises. No more cheap fags etc. Back to duty free allowances 200 cigarettes, 1 litre spirits etc.
igm - we can still have European friends and family. Just because you like someone doesn't mean you have to have the same passports.
NATO will continue and the French were never in it proving to an extent its not EU dependent. To me it shows how silly EU is because it wants to usurp NATO with a Euro army.
The trade thing is surely wrong? the tariff penalty for not being in EU is actually quite small although I accept a loss of passporting may hurt the City.
ECHR - maybe but I doubt it.
Mrmo - you may well be right to a large extent but euro regs are too much. its regs for the sake of it.
igm, but will the Tories leadership back down? i have real concerns that they really don't give a shit. No functional opposition so time to screw everyone they can!
One of the benefits of the EU is that it provided money for things that our own government wasn't inclined to spend money on. Like research funding, regional development, etc. As a country we already invest less of our GDP in research that almost any other EU country. That is why the EU is important - to make up the shortfall. I really doubt that the current tory government would cover these expenses even if they had the money. Which they won't, largely because of the economic effects of brexit.
Secondly, much of the shared history of Europe is having wars with each other. The EU to me was progression away from this and the "us and them" attitude.
What lgm and mrmo said.
With knobs on.
Mrmo - you may well be right to a large extent but euro regs are too much. its regs for the sake of it.
So which regs would you get rid of then? Building safety standards, pollution, food, beaches, employment, maternity, paternity, sexual equality, etc etc?
And remember the EU is our largest market and if you want to sell there you have to meet their regulations.
Mrmo - you may well be right to a large extent but euro regs are too much. its regs for the sake of it.
OK, for the sake of argument name a regulation that adversely affects the uk without also bolstering at least any one of workers rights, equality, safety or environmental protection and isn't something that we would have had to legislate for on our own. If you can find one the uk government more than likely had a choice or veto over implementing it but chose to enact it anyway.
I keep hearing this said about EU regs but have struggled to find examples.
Wait 'till the isolationists start campaigning for us to abandon SI.
Who needs standard units if you don't want to collaborate across borders?
Isn't there already some tosspot cebrating that he can now sell a pint of champagne? I suspect the irony of how much more the champagne will cost is lost on him......
kelvin - Member
Wait 'till the isolationists start campaigning for us to abandon SI.
Oh balls, thats pretty much the next step in our time warp back to the 50s
and youll have to change your username to farenheit !
I see that Theresa May has managed to charm Junker then
these negotiations are not going to go well
hmmmm...
😆 - though I find myself in a bit of a Trump/Clinton situation with the two of them.
Shackleton - MemberIsn't there already some tosspot cebrating that he can now sell a pint of champagne?
Wait til someone tells him champagne is French, he's going to imperially shit his pants.
[quote=flanagaj ]You just have to listen to the anti British sentiment being spouted by EU leaders to understand that the EU totally undemocratic.
Could you explain to me how the logic works there?
[quote=igm ]the only people who will want us to leave by March will be the Europeans.
Except it's becoming increasingly clear that they don't want that. They might have only realised this a bit late, but I'm still clinging to the crumbs of optimism that there isn't actually the will to force us out even if we've already invoked article 50, if somehow we can come to our senses in the next couple of years. That's certainly the noises coming from the EU leaders.
hh45 - where to start...
Well, firstly I know many people who are passionately "pro-Europe", but not in the manner of fervent, blind, zealous belief of many Brexiters. The pro-EU choice reflects a cold pragmatism. This is why many businesses (who would never ordinarily allow their names to be associated with a political view) believed that our prospects would be better within the EU. In other words - this is not a comfort blanket thing... It's a view based on knowledge of how globalised trade works, or doesn't work. If you want a reason why educated / professional people were more likely to vote remain, then this is probably it - their work (my work) gives everyday knowledge of what drives business decisions. The "comfort blanket" metaphor is probably more relevant for those who have voted to re-establish something that never was and can never be again.
Why is this? Tebbitt told my generation to "get on your bike" and Thatcher made sure we had to... The market rules, the market is always right. Well, we're a globalised market now - if you pick up your toys and stomp off back to a little Britain home, then you're turning your back on everything that was forcefully, painfully changed in the 1980s. Going back to 1973? Yes, in more was than merely the EEC referendum.
Regarding "Regulations" - as others have asked, which ones should go???
My area of work is in environmental legislation & remediation. UK Govt would have done SFA without Europe and where we are now in INCOMPARABLE to when I started my career. I'm not able to tell you specifics of what I've come across, but shit on beaches is just the visible stuff.
Most of the public have no idea what has happened to improve this country over the last 20-30 years, except for a few whimsical TV programmes showing salmon back in this river or that 😡
Why is this? Tebbitt told my generation to "get on your bike" and Thatcher made sure we had to...
You shouldn't have had to have been told. It's what normal people do.
Wait til someone tells him champagne is French,But invented by an Englishman
particularly all those terrible immigrants eh 😉
You shouldn't have had to have been told. It's what normal people do.
Anyway....
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You shouldn't have had to have been told. It's what normal people do.
That's my point, in many ways. Today it is normal. It didn't used to be normal.
When I finished O Levels in the early 80s, my year was the first year that most of the male students didn't go to the local large heavy engineering employer - jobs for life, on the doorstep, for the previous year groups... And not just my school, but the same across a whole city.
My year - study, dole or armed forces. I did study, most of my mates did forces. Those less well placed started life from a shit place.
So, we've now created a couple of generations with shit prospects and they want out - but it's not the EU that's created the shit
The pro-EU choice reflects a cold pragmatism. This is why many businesses (who would never ordinarily allow their names to be associated with a political view) believed that our prospects would be better within the EU.
Pretty much my position, the only the matters is to determine was is the best structure for facilitating trade and investment in the UK. That was the status quo. Cold, hard pragmatism and common sense. The rest of the stuff was just noise and nonsense. Of course the € is going to collapse etc, but that makes not a hoot of difference to our position.
We paid a tiny pices for a great relationship with few of the downsides. Only fools throw that away. We will end up with a fraction of what we had.
Shackleton if you look at how much of the retail price of a bottle of Champagne is dependent upon the £/€ exchange rate you'll see it makes very little difference. Never mind the cost in a restaurant or bar with another 100% £ markup. Just saying.
cchris as you probably know the UK is the number 1 market for Champagne, we drink more than the French.
As for funding its all our money with a 45% EU skim. Do they fund anything significant we wouldn't ? I'm not so sure and in any case is that worth such a massive skim off the top ?
@hh IMO the EU has absolutely not been worth it. It was a good idea to go into the EEC but it's slowly morphed into a monster.
The most compelling argument to remain I've heard here is the EU (supposedly) keeps a lid on the Tories
More nonesense today as one small regional government in Belgium has blocked the whole trade deal with Canada. What an absolute dogs breakfast
@tmh you are quite right about public posturing. However imo there will be no deal in 2017 as the next Chancellor of Germany won't be known till October. 2018 possibly for an early agreement. If LePenn wins all bets are off as they may hold their own Frexit Referendum and certainly one on a euro exit
cchris as you probably know the UK is the number 1 market for Champagne, we drink more than the French.
Acording to the bloke at verve clique when we had a tour last year it was Russia. It was cheaper to buy a bottle in Tesco here than at the shop at Verve Clique....
jambalaya - MemberMore nonesense today as one small regional government in Belgium has blocked the whole trade deal with Canada. What an absolute dogs breakfast
Damn the undemocratic EU...wait
If only they were members of some sort of massive free trade area, eh?
cchris as you probably know the UK is the number 1 market for Champagne, we drink more than the French.
Source please, you ferocious bull-schizzle pedaler.
More nonesense today as one small regional government in Belgium has blocked the whole trade deal with Canada. What an absolute dogs breakfast
Do you the think this deal would be even on the cards if it wasn't for the weight of the EU?
Second is it not the case that this is a democratic process. IE if one component is not happy with the deal then it can't happen?
Source please, you ferocious bull-schizzle pedaler.
as remarkable as it may seem I think hes right on this one, it had to happen one day!
I thought that one of VoteLeave's arguments was that EU membership would drag us into TTIP and CETA?
.cchris as you probably know the UK is the number 1 market for Champagne, we drink more than the French
Biggest export market but we don't drink more than the French.
http://www.champagne.fr/en/champagne-economy/key-market-statistics
Second is it not the case that this is a democratic process. IE if one component is not happy with the deal then it can't happen?
Is that not an oligarchy? Power resides with a small number of people...
Ninja edit: ...which by many definitions is not a democracy
.which by many definitions is not a democracy
representative democracy,innit, like mps weve elected vote for us
Is that not an oligarchy? Power resides with a small number of people..
The issue is the deal needs to be unanimous. That's always going to be a tough call.
As I understand it.
The framework is still democratic.
It seems odd that The Walloons have a say in the running of the EU but Britain doesn't, or is that one of those brexit lies we keep hearing about?
It seems politically naive to me to put a major trade deal to a unanimous voting outcome
[i]It seems odd that The Walloons have a say in the running of the EU but Britain doesn't, or is that one of those brexit lies we keep hearing about? [/i]
We both did, our representative is allowed to vote for us via Parliament but their constitution requires local agreement. Maybe if WE had a constitution...
So is negotiating trade deals hard? I'd heard it was going to be easy for us once we get our country back
So is negotiating trade deals hard? I'd heard it was going to be easy for us once we get our country back
Like riding a space hopper to the moon. Easy.......
As for funding its all our money with a 45% EU skim. Do they fund anything significant we wouldn't ? I'm not so sure and in any case is that worth such a massive skim off the top ?
The reputation of British science is second to none, and a significant factor in this is the net contribution the EU makes to The UK science sector. Do you think the Torres will continue to support investment to this level Jamabalaya? We'll also be making it harder for taltneted scientisits to come to the UK for work, and as a large proportion of medical and pharmaceutical hardware is made in Germany, we are going to pay more for our r&d and manufacturing.
Britain's science sector has done increasingly well out of the EU in recent years, receiving €8.8bn in research funding in 2007-2013 versus the €5.4bn it paid in over the same period. And UK-based scientists have won about a fifth of all the grants, in terms of value, from the top-tier programmes run by the European Research Council."In the upcoming negotiations, we must make sure that research, which is the bedrock of a sustainable economy, is not short-changed, and the government ensures that the overall funding level of science is maintained,"
Source: BBC
Jamba, you keep banging on about this 45% haircut the EU takes from our membership, but this doesn't take into account the economic benefits of being in the EU. Which clubs worth being a member of don't have a fee attached?
“Our annual contribution is equivalent to £340 for each household and yet the CBI (Confederation of British Industry) says that all the trade, investment, jobs and lower prices that come from our economic partnership with Europe is worth £3000 per year to every household.”
As for funding its all our money with a 45% EU skim. Do they fund anything significant we wouldn't ? I'm not so sure and in any case is that worth such a massive skim off the top ?
Can I suggest that you go back to the start of this thread and reread it very carefully? Numerous people have explained many times over why what you are saying is overly simplistic and misses the differences in political and philosophical standpoints of UK government vs the EU.
For example with science funding the tories have said that science funding will stay the same for the next few years. But they also announced a global challenges research fund as part of boosting overseas development budgets. However this money came entirely from ring fencing a proportion of the existing uk science budget and saying it can only be used on projects that boost overseas development. So freethinking/innovative/Blue skies /fundamental UK science funding has actually already decreased by some duplicitous double acccountancy.
I thought that one of VoteLeave's arguments was that EU membership would drag us into TTIP and CETA?
Not the official campaign (generally they where pro), the Left Leave where anti US / TTIP and many left leaning campaign groups had been against it for years due to NHS
@rone I've read/heard it said many times but maybe it is just export as you say
@Dark Side British Science has a terrific reputation as we are good at it. That came before the EU and the grants are as much a result of those skills as anything. May has guaranteed funding for all EU existing projects. In the future we will see. If you are asking whether I'd rather fund a lefty Liverpool Social Science Professor or a Tech Project in Manchester or indeed the NHS then Liverpool Prof would come off third best. US Science and Research is pretty good and that's funded privately
Yes there is an Economic benefit to free trade and arguably a bigger one to the EU than to UK given our trade deficit. That benefit would exist with a free trade area and no EU budget / Parliament.
Shackleton The EU itself said there are 30 (three zero !) different ways of calculating net payments.
I'm afraid, Jamba, we've already seen redundancies in my (Italian owned) high tech company, due to funding cuts directly caused by the inevitability of Brexit. The rationale is that if they insource the work to Italy then they'll get more EU funding.
The floodgates have opened.
We should be looking at Nissan Sunderland over the next few weeks/months as this is going to set the standard for overseas manufacturers approach to business in the UK. If Nissan declare that the next generation quashqai is not going to be built in Sunderland then the slow erosion of 7000 direct and the 50000 supporting jobs turns that particular part of the North East back to 1982. If Nissan declare that the Qashqai will be built in Sunderland then that will be on the back of some l sort of Government rebate/Tax credit - this could cost anywhere from £10 - £20m per week (this is somewhere in the region of a £400 per job per week)
That EU contribution rebate is not going to last long if Toyota Hitachi Honda Siemens etc all get the same deal. Trouble is our manufacturing resources actually don't belong to us - and there are plenty of people I have run into who will laugh like **** if Nissan leaves as they view it as karma - this is what we have created - horrible nasty division in local communities
@rone I've read/heard it said many times but maybe it is just export as you say
And there, in a nutshell, is the science behind brexit. #jambafact
I see from this mornings papers that Theresa has been taking her Maggie analogy to heart and has opened proceedings by haughtily lecturing the people we're going to be negotiating with
Always a great aproach.
It's clear she's now just playing to the UKIP/bigot/little englanders gallery. But at what cost to the rest of us?
I'm actually starting to get pretty scared of the severity of the rapidly approaching shitstorm, with these morons at the helm. Of course they'll all be safely insulated by their wealth and positions from the economic catastrophe that their arrogance and stupidity is about to rain down on the rest of us!
The floodgates have opened.
Let's wait and see. There is a huge amount of "Blame Brexit" going on - I appreciate perhaps not in your specific case. As some doors close many new ones will open.
We should never have joined or as a minimum never ratified the Maastricht or Lisbon treaties
Onwards and upwards. The World awaits.
[i]There is a huge amount of "Blame Brexit" going on[/i]
Yep, my eldest's car insurance is up for renewal. New price increase blamed on Brexit by the call handler.
Ah, says he. Why is it then my Dad's insurance hasn't gone up?
Clue backpedalling by the call handler. 🙂
^^^ 😐
Much more of that to come I think. 50% of people will suck it up and say "Brexit - told you so" and 50% will say "rubbish" so why not try it on
Salesmen will always be salesmen.
At some point though maybe years from now we will expect things to be better won't we not worse? As what was the point?
My tennis partners has just had to pay his Polish builders 20% to compensate them for the falling £. I thought he was a mug, but if he didn't they would walk away! So he was stuffed.
jambalaya
US Science and Research is pretty good and that's funded privately
it really is a constant stream of made up facts and figures to back up the world you have created
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institutes_of_Health
after all they only get $30bn a year from the US government
then theres this little outfit, you may have heard of them?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA
and these guys
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Oceanic_and_Atmospheric_Administration
and plenty more besides
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I suppose if you are going to lie all the time you may as well just tell the biggest whoppers you can, its the Brexiter way after all
I wonder why your scary graph both focuses on GDP and ends in 2012?
In real terms, science funding is planned to remain at current levels, Ok, there's strong arguments that it should increase (and let's consider how much of the US figures are military research) but being alarmist helps nobody
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The US military fund a lot of basic research. I worked on a project funded by the US Office of Naval Research and it was nothing to do with Things That Go Fast And Explode.
In real terms, science funding is planned to remain at current levels
Oh good. So they're not planning to increase it at all to make up for the loss of EU funding? 🙄
Though you seem to be missing the point that no reference was being made to funding going down, it was simply a comparison of UK and US government spending in response to a #jambafact
So kimbers, under Labour we saw apoor levels of investment in research. Labour the party of remain.
Bit of a piss poor graph anyway. One of its axis is micro measured in fractions of a percent. Helping visually skewer a set of figures.
You did maths right?
In today's news a Belgian region blocked a EU trade deal with Canada. I imagine the Guardian will plaster their news with this?/.....
In today's news a Belgian region blocked a EU trade deal with Canada. I imagine the Guardian will plaster their news with this?/.....
Eh, it's the first story on the Guardian homepage Hora.
Bit of a piss poor graph anyway. One of its axis is micro measured in fractions of a percent. Helping visually skewer a set of figures.
It is accurate and allows you to discern differences. Not sure what your problem with it is? The only way it could be misleading is if you didn't bother to look at it properly. Plus each of those "micromeasurement" is 100s of millions of dollars so a tiny % change is a massive amount of money.
In today's news a Belgian region blocked a EU trade deal with Canada. I imagine the Guardian will plaster their news with this?/.....
Bloody Guardian Eh? Pointing out the uncomfortable reality that any one of 27 countries can tell us to stick our cloud cuckoo land list of 'demands' once we trigger our economic suicide in April. Is this actually sinking in with you flag-waving half-wits yet?
Perhaps the journalist who wrote it should be tried for treason?
In today's news a Belgian region blocked a EU trade deal with Canada. I imagine the Guardian will plaster their news with this?/.....
so they operate a democracy, if someone isn't happy it doesn't happen.
Unlike the UK where 37% of total electorate gets to screw everyone
25% of the total population voted to remain
100% of bargain hunters on STW have bought a barely used bike from Hora.
Also; 100% of manufacturers have had warranty claims made by Hora regarding supposedly defective equipment....
😆
ninfan - Member
I wonder why your scary graph both focuses on GDP and ends in 2012?In real terms, science funding is planned to remain at current levels, Ok,
erm your graph shows that the gov cut funding from that 2010 baseline, which already had us below Italy, still way below the rest of the G8 too.
the further cuts will now be felt extra hard as 'real terms' allows for inflation which is now on the up with the falling £ making research much more expensive as so much of our reagents and equipment is sourced, directly and indirectly from oversees.
and in real terms the other g8 member funding wouldve tracked in similar way
🙄Bit of a piss poor graph anyway. One of its axis is micro measured in fractions of a percent. Helping visually skewer a set of figures.You did maths right?
and yeah the guardian led with the ceta story
arguing with brexiters really is like pissing into the wind 😉
My tennis partners has just had to pay his Polish builders 20% to compensate them for the falling £. I thought he was a mug, but if he didn't they would walk away! So he was stuffed.
Hope he can play tennis better than agree a contract.
The flag waving idiots are in for one hell of a rude awakening come April
The EU Is just going to repeatedly say 'non' to the Brexiteers ludicrous demands, then as panic sets in as deadlines loom, offer us a far worse deal than the one we have at present, on a 'take it or *ing leave it!" basis.
Meanwhile the economy will tank, while the Daily Mail and assorted nationalist *-wits will spend the entire two years with their heads spinning around, then they'll explode with self-righteous, bile-filled, anti-foreigner indignation. Because everything is Johnny Foreigners fault!
I expect to spend the entire period with my head in my hands, ashamed of the vile, petty, toxic little nation we've become
25% of the total population voted to remain
and 26% voted leave, one fact about people, they don't congratulate only complain.
That only 26% could be arsed to complain suggests very strongly that most people are happy with the status quo.
How do you work out 26% voted leave?
1.5million more people voted to leave than remain.
You'd call them racists, narrow minded and xenophobes.
Not all of them, no. Some are just delusional and stupid.
wiki population of UK 65M, 17M voted leave, 17/65 is approximately 0.26
So using your 'method' 23% wanted to remain.
🙂
no, 26% wanted to leave, 74% voted remain, didn't care or weren't asked. So anyone claiming there is a huge mandate is lying.
ashamed of the vile, petty, toxic little nation we've become
Called Englishness....apparently.
Using electoral commission numbers of eligible voters:
37.4% voted leave
34.7% voted remain
27.9% didn't vote or spoiled their ballots
So whichever way you look at it trying to claim a mandate or majority view for any course of action is rather disingenuous.
Remember, as far as St. Farage of bigots and the small minded is concerned, a result that close is unfinished business.....
no, 26% wanted to leave, 74% voted remain, didn't care or weren't asked. So anyone claiming there is a huge mandate is lying.
Are we counting feotuses now ?
I prefer % of electorate, so only 63% didn't vote to leave. IMHO any referendum on a major constitutional question like this should have a basic threshold of 50% of the electorate to change things, and yes that does also apply to the Scottish indyref. Though it seems we don't do things like that in the UK - IIRC only 25% of the electorate voted in favour of having the Welsh assembly.
There has been a lot of press that the leave vote was made up of older and less well educated people with relatively low incomes? Statically it's probably a little more complicated than that but as I have said before it is not that demographic that will have to fix this and as much as Jamba and others shout about a brave new world sadly "Bob the fork lift truck driver from Hartlepool" is not going to get off his arse and start a new export driven venture. It all feels a bit like picking someone else's dog s**t up. Politically we have to accept that the swing vote was probably this section of society (no criticism by the way it's where I came from) which contains very little in the way of wealth or job creation skills. The reSt who voted probably sit in the "we can make some serious cash here" camp.
Since we have voted out fuel (all types) food and clothes have become more expensive £20 is a lot of money each month if your on minimum wage, its an inconvenience if your on £40k,it's **** all if your on a £100k - this is the thin end of a miserable wedge and has created a brand new divide in this country. Now those at the bottom have gone from being tolerated to being despised- it's a shame they could not get off their arses when there was a proper election.
That's the trouble with democracy. If only top rate tax payers were allowed to vote the country would be a different place... 😈
Are we counting feotuses now ?
well as they will still be dealing with the legacy of brexishambles long after all the out voting old codgers have gone up to heaven (which i presume has a sign above the pearly gates saying 'No Foreigners')
then yeah give the feotuses bigger weighting 😉
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/22/leading-banks-set-to-pull-out-of-brexit-uk?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews#comment-85975975 ]Next[/url]
I guess we will know by the end of the year if the banks are bluffing...