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Tories divisive and giving grater rights to rich folk than poor folkit does sound a little divisive
That is a turn up for the book and a real eye opener
Sounds like the current government thinking is freedom of movement for professional middle class types while the working class can know their place and stay in it.
Controlled immigration is about taking the skills we need. In Australia that has meant more tradesmen and less PhDs etc
What various people have said inc Sadiq Kahn is financial services/the City should have no restrictions. Now I do not agree, they should have visas like everyone else.
The odd thing is that the Germans are in the process of approving a law meaning no unemployment benefits for 5 years for EU citizens.
So if I go and work in Germany and pay the equivalent of national insurance, I'm subsidizing all the locals? Not fair!
Edit: switching off
jambalaya - Member
In Australia that has meant more tradesmen and less PhDs etc
Fewer PhDs.
well if we don't leave the EU there will be civil unrest I shall be there!
Brexit is hopefully going to happen and when it does it will be fine. just relax and accept it.
The EU's two trophy policies are the Euro and the Shenghen agreement and both have failed dismally. That alone was enough to convince me even before the Treasury started trying to warp the arguments. There is nothing any of those countries make or sell that we cant buy when we're outside the EU. How do you think Australia, Chile, USA, India all manage? It really is quite odd just how narrow minded people are over this. How do you think we managed before 1973? Snap out of it FFS!
The EU's two trophy policies are the Euro and the Shenghen agreement and both have failed dismally.
And......oh forget, you can only say the same things so many times
hh45 - according to the governments own figues we will have to increase exports to those countries by 37% just to stand still
Caution kids - sweary [but great as ever]
How do you think we managed before 1973? Snap out of it FFS!
I don't know if you've realised this.....but it's not 1973 anymore..
Jamba - you got a link to that bit of nonsense about germany making new laws on benefits?
BTW - we could have had a qualification for benefits based upon contributions IIRC but of course that would have meant no school lever could have got any as they would not have any contributions.
jambalaya - Member
Controlled immigration is about taking the skills we need. In Australia that has meant more tradesmen and less PhDs etcWhat various people have said inc Sadiq Kahn is financial services/the City should have no restrictions. Now I do not agree, they should have visas like everyone else.
I hear you Jamba, but given the government already vetoed the points based system (Aussie style system), what do you think Davis really means here...
"Clearly it is not going to be in the national interest to restrict the movement of talent, the free movement of brainpower. You can be very, very confident that we will not be limiting highly intelligent, highly capable people's access," Davis told parliament.
The EU's two trophy policies are the Euro and the Shenghen agreement and both have failed dismally.
I know I've been away for a bit but when did the UK join the euro or have full open borders?
well if we don't leave the EU there will be civil unrest I shall be there!
Well by the time all the mail and express readers get all excited it should thin the heard a little...
There is nothing any of those countries make or sell that we cant buy when we're outside the EU. How do you think Australia, Chile, USA, India all manage?
Australia (slightly a specialist subject) huge mineral resources.
Apart from that by trying to make deals with places like the eu that are about 70% as good as the current UK position. Leaving the eu will not open anything new up just me a bunch of stuff harder.
As an aside, and I don't condone this (honest - but I am finding it quite funny), the insulting names on both sides are getting more and more creative / tenuous .
Remoaners
Bremoaners
Bretards
Brexshitters
Regrexiteers
Have I missed any good ones?
Ahhhh... Australia... Dont you just love it when Australia is chosen as an exemplar of a reasonable and common sense immigration policy. That beacon of enlightened and progressive social policies. The country where it's own indigenous peoples are arguably treated as second class citizens.
The country where it's own indigenous peoples are [b]IN[/b]arguably treated as second class citizens.
FIFY
igm - Member
As an aside, and I don't condone this (honest - but I am finding it quite funny), the insulting names on both sides are getting more and more creative / tenuous .Remoaners
Bremoaners
Bretards
Brexshitters
RegrexiteersHave I missed any good ones?
Yes. EU lackeys.
I think I have only come across the word "lackeys" by Graham (think it was you but apology if it was not you) recently once so I am not sure if this is a bad word or bad insulting word but in HK they used it to insult political opponents e.g. Leftards, US lackeys (lefties), Hot dog(nationalist) and HK pigs (those couldn't give a damn about both sides as they prefer to eat, defecate and sleep).
jambalaya - I could not care less
Just wanted to quote that, feels telling to me.
Trolls have to troll @pondo that was my point
@igm US and Singapore don't have a points system. You make an applcation and they decide
@tmh we keep making the point about the EU's central policies being a failure as it shows how incompetant and dysfunctional th EU is. The EU's responce, yet more Europe
@TJ come on its been all over the news websites ... in the interests of fairnplay I will dig out the links. EDIT here is one from Guardian
Trolls have to troll @pondo that was my point
Your indifference to both facts and accuracy was mine.
@tmh we keep making the point about the EU's central policies being a failure as it shows how incompetant and dysfunctional th EU is. The EU's responce, yet more Europe
So what? We are not part of that and should have no bearing on how we want to structure our future economic relationship with some of our most important trading partners.
It remains a red herring no matter how often you misuse it
@tmh we keep making the point about the EU's central policies being a failure as it shows how incompetant and dysfunctional th EU is. The EU's responce, yet more Europe
and yet those shouting loudest about it have yet to make a credible path forwards that will make the UK better. Or even easier why the UK could not have improved within the EU.
@pondo feel free to list some factual errors I have made here. People mix up opinion and interpretation presented with conviction.
@tmh it's not a Red Herring it's a Red Flag. Absolutely indicative of everything thats wrong about the EU.
It's added. Presumably the opposite would be a leavoony - but I just made that one up.
More specific I suppose would be a 'Kipper
Keep them coming.
The odd thing is that the Germans are in the process of approving a law meaning no unemployment benefits for 5 years for EU citizens. I thought when Cameron asked for the same he was tood it was a core EU principal of equal treatment
That's because there has been a court case in-between then that tested what an individual was allowed to claim and the ECJ ruled against paving the way for Germany to do what they've done.
In broad strokes.
@pondo feel free to list some factual errors I have made here.
This thread is 360 pages long and you've been called out on the majority of them - I'd invite you to answer any of them.
@tmh it's not a Red Herring it's a Red Flag. Absolutely indicative of everything thats wrong about the EU.
It's very odd to make things that do not apply to the UK a Red Flag. You might as well add the requirement to speak Esperanto.
It is indicative of everything that is wrong with the BSers case. Total BS.
hh45 - Member
How do you think we managed before 1973?
well we did a bit shit, really
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but you keep on living in your fantasy land
@pondo feel free to list some factual errors I have made here
In addition to supporting the five lies at the core of the Brexshit campaign
We are not part of the €
We are not part of Schengen
We are not on the hook for financial support
We did not lose money on supporting Greece last time
We do not have uncontrolled immigration
Immigration has not had a significant impact on either employment levels or wages
That without stopping to think about it too hard.
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This is all very well but the question was how did we do [i]before[/i] 1973?
This thread continues to generate some complete & utter nonsense...
I'm interested to read some of the political and economic arguments for Brexit, but this...
hh45 - Member
How do you think we managed before 1973?
Rose-tinted reading glasses??? WTF has 1973 (pre- computers, pre-Internet, pre-globalisation, pre-fax? and for many pre-telephone) got to do with the 21st Century???
Let me point out how stupid that is - Did your relatives in 1973 suggest 1930 was better??? Let's chuck out the Ford Anglia / Morris Minor and go back to horse and cart or bicycle 😡
AND DONT GET ME STARTED ON:
Cod Wars
Do you have any idea what that embarrassing spat was about???
I saw one of our Leander class frigates in dry dock with her bows stove in!
Not the most glorious part of our collective history...
Why was there a cod war? Because the UK had manage to overfish the North Sea for most commercial species without any help from our EEC / EU neighbours and wanted to preserve our right to carry on fishing somebody else's... Iceland were trying to protect their natural resource from a greedy European neighbour - gotta love the ironing!
The whole fishing / quotas thing really boils my p!ss. Quotas were a mechanism to protect fish stocks. Overfishing and low fish stocks were a product of an unregulated industry
Forgot "many millions of Poles"
And many others....
Oh the irony...the UK chose to leave the club because it was fed up with the club telling the UK how to behave...and now the UK is annoying the club because in its final days in the club the UK is trying to tell the club how to behave... 🙄
It re-enforced my thoughts yesterday stood in the local garage of our ex-mining village when I saw a couple of low loaders carrying cars off and a local chap in the queue said "that's it, go get them." That is the local Polish folks cars being towed off into the distance for not paying tax, insurance or whatever.
As a minority ProEU voice in a village. I just throught that's enough of a reason for them. Don't need to go any deeper.
They've forgot about Thatcher these days (will always be justified for me). As long as we do battle with someone then it's okay.
It doesn't matter that the migrants are propping up the local economy up the road at Sports Direct.
There will never be any logic to the Brexiteers, there never was. It doesn't matter to them. This is a battle of getting rid of people from our Island.
Don't forget nasty foreigners EVB.... 😉
That's because there has been a court case in-between then that tested what an individual was allowed to claim and the ECJ ruled against paving the way for Germany to do what they've done.
So what you're saying is, the EU can change and evolve?
Don't tell the brexiteers....
Anyone else watch Question Time last night?
By the end it looked to me like Ken Clarke had given up arguing with the Leavers in the audience, as in given up trying to bother talking to a load of folk that just keep shouting "we want to leave".
And it was quite obvious that those folk have no idea where they want to leave to...
Also quite noticeable that all those who spoke for leave were white and lower working class.
IT was quite entertaining if boorish at times. Clarke is winding down now, I met him recently and was struck by just how physically frail he is. Mentally still great and an v amusing after dinner speaker. When the bloke got shouty, he just smiled and let it pass, probably thinking about the post-QT scotch with Conrad.
Varoufakis was good and wacky at the same time, but livens things up. The poor Labour lass was a bit our of her depth but DD looked like he was reassuring her at the end - "you were fine, honestly." I hope that she doesn't have an important shadow brief though.
The serious labour types are going for select committees not shadow briefs I think
This is all very well but the question was how did we do before 1973?
Like I said, shit
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but it doesnt make any difference Brexiters will just continue to view things through their own sunglasses of nostalgia/xenophobia/ignorance- see the Polish woman being booed on QT last night.
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_58094d0ee4b0f479c0d6135a
IT was quite entertaining if boorish at times. Clarke is winding down now, I met him recently and was struck by just how physically frail he is. Mentally still great and an v amusing after dinner speaker. When the bloke got shouty, he just smiled and let it pass, probably thinking about the post-QT scotch with Conrad.
Yes, it was very evident at the Any Questions session I attended last year and I thought your're decent guy why not just go and sit in your Garden instead of turning up to these sprawling broadcasts.
So what you're saying is, the EU can change and evolve?Don't tell the brexiteers....
Absolutely.
More to the point for me - it's always a bit crackers to take a newspaper article which is clearly just trying to re-enforce its ideology (confirmation bias etc) without retracing the steps of the news article, and what exactly the background to it is.
I do wonder now how the landscape may have changed public perception if we said oh - by the way we can now effectively limit benefits for immigrants for up to 4/5 years.
It's little adjustments like this that may appease the pitchfork brigade.
But then again, maybe not.
Sharp writing from Mark Steel
I know Hartlepool quite well and it's had none of the investment that Newcastle or even Sunderland or Middlesbrough and it was sad to watch some people just simply screaming for out. I wonder what the gang of three actually think (assuming they watch QT) of this desperation and the potential medium term backlash when these folks realise their personal well being is actually rapidly declining. It was very sad to watch almost like a wounded animal.
However I now realise why Conrad Black got sent to prison.
I do wonder now how the landscape may have changed public perception if we said oh - by the way we can now effectively limit benefits for immigrants for up to 4/5 years.
Quite a bit.
The general public seem think "EU has caused this and this problem, therefore we must leave".
But they don't know about the good things the EU has enabled and the advantages businesses can get. That's the businesses so many of us ordinary people work for, not fat cat banking stuff.
But they don't know about the good things the EU has enabled and the advantages businesses can get. That's the businesses so many of us ordinary people work for, not fat cat banking stuff.
I wonder if that's because the remain campaign failed to put across the advantages of remaining. Their campaign was as pathetic as the leavers pack of lies and misinformation. Reminded me of the appalling referendum on voting reform.
I wonder if that's because the remain campaign failed to put across the advantages of remaining
Yes. The Delphi poster is a damn good illustration of the positives imo. And we didn't see it during the campaign.
Incompetent politicans again.
Everyone knows the EU is dysfunctional. Even most ardent Remainers argued for a reformed EU. The fact is the only reform has been a march away from what the Remainers wanted (never mind Leavers). The voters saw this for what it is.
Pretty sure most of them saw is for what they were [i]told [/i]it was, dude.
Everyone knows the EU is dysfunctional. Even most ardent Remainers argued for a reformed EU. The fact is the only reform has been a march away from what the Remainers wanted (never mind Leavers). The voters saw this for what it is.
Seriously, just stop.
Interesting that Conrad Black fella actually believes the EU will come back with a revised offer and there will be a 2nd referendum.
Even most ardent Remainers argued for a reformed EU.
Of course. Most things can be improved. I'd argue for a reformed UK parliament, but that doesn't mean I'd vote to leave it.
The voters saw this for what it is.
Clever astute lot then, leave voters?
Everyone knows the EU is dysfunctional.
Omniscient as well now are we?
Even most ardent Remainers argued for a reformed EU. The fact is the only reform has been a march away from what the Remainers wanted (never mind Leavers).
No they didn't. Sensible remainers argued for a reformed EU and being a lead hand in reforming it. The EU needs reforming just like any other form of government currently in operation around the world. As the EU will continue to exert a lot of sway over our lives, be we in or out, a sensible advocate may argue that being able to steer the direction of the EU is a preferable situation to being a passive recipient of whatever the rest of the EU decides.
The voters saw this for what it is.
37% of eligible voters decided to leave. Trying to second guess why is a futile exercise unless you truly are omniscient.
So please, stop talking in sound bites. The campaigning is over, there is no need to dress up bollocks as facts and make sweeping generalisations. If you can't help yourself then please stay out of attempts by others to have a rational debate to try and understand what is going on and what it means for our futures.
Black is probably correct. There will be a compromise reached in 2017. At the moment, we have posturing for TV/home audiences while the real negotiations take place behind closed doors.
Even most ardent Remainers argued for a reformed EU.
Nothing wrong with reforming things. It's a bit different to tearing it all apart though.
Interesting that Conrad Black fella actually believes the EU will come back with a revised offer and there will be a 2nd referendum.
This would of course be the most pragmatic, damage limiting course of action. And that's precisely why Brussels won't even consider it.
The whole Brexit thing is a political powerplay. It's pretty obvious to just about everyone in Europe that there are some deep seated issues that need to be addressed:
- Falling share of world GDP
- High unemployment / lack of growth in many member states
- Ongoing loss of high value industries to China
- Difficulties planning for / accommodating immigration at scale when the associated provisioning needs in Health, Education, Housing etc. cannot be predicted early enough to enable member states to plan for it.
- Complete lack of thinking on what to do with a resurgent and expansionist Russian state
Despite all this Brussels is like an Ostrich strutting round a private sandpit wondering why everyone is so busy asking for change when itself it has no difficulty in finding somewhere to bury its head.
The "negotiations" between UK / EU at the start of the year were conducted with no genuine intention to find middle ground or solutions - instead it was a game of marginal compromise underpinned by a requirement to give up the right to ever negotiate on those points in the future. I can't think of any negotiation where those "rules" would result in an agreed outcome - the whole set up was stupid from the outset and the army of 8,000+ EU Civil Servants all paid more than our Prime Minister have a lot to answer for.
As the Referendum was already a known fact, it's surprising that the EU chose to effectively give David Cameron a poke in the eye and then tell him to ask go home and ask everyone here what they thought about that in a referendum.
The Political class that dominates Brussels seems to have very little understanding of the concerns of the people of Europe, and the straws in the wind this week fro Hollande, Tusk and others don't suggest a change of heart is likely any time soon.
With different leadership and a new found desire to work constructively to solve the problems member states have today the outcome could still be different. It doesn't make sense to trash the economies of many member states via a "hard" Brexit in order to pursue solely political goals. The people of the 28 member states have the right to expect that Europe's leaders work together rather than playing silly political games.
Shackleton. I think i love you.
j5m - agree with that. And that is why Cameron/May should've gone back to Brussles with the result and started talking before saying Brexit means Brexit.
As a side observation - there really is a marked difference in the quality of contributions to this thread from each side.
+1 for the Shackleton love in - more debate insight and less bollocks
ulysse and oldmanmtb 😳
With different leadership and a new found desire to work constructively to solve the problems member states have today the outcome could still be different. It doesn't make sense to trash the economies of many member states via a "hard" Brexit in order to pursue solely political goals. The people of the [s]28 member states[/s] United kingdom have the right to expect that[s] Europe's leaders[/s] our own MPs work together rather than playing silly political games.
the entire referendum is the result of tabloid nonsense whipping up xenophobia and jingoism, something far too many of our own politicians have happily embraced to deflect from their own failings, making it easy for demagogues like farage to come along and spout a load of nonsense
eg
Not sure how we can tackle this our population isnt expanding anywhere near as fast as the BRICs nations for example, But have rested on our post empire laurels for far too long,we invest considerably less in R&D than comparable economies such as Germany, USA & FranceFalling share of world GDP
our low unemployment is built on a very shaky foundation of 0 hrs contracts and CEOs far more interested in share price than the health of their company, hence ur huge productivity gap- High unemployment / lack of growth in many member states
maybe foxcon will open a factory here post brexit? 😉 (see R&D investment)- Ongoing loss of high value industries to China
These issues affect us in the same way as they do the rest of Europe, our ageing population means we need ever increasing numbers of young immigrant workers, our economy is boosted by immigrants but that money is not reinvested in the NHS, education or housing stock- Difficulties planning for / accommodating immigration at scale when the associated provisioning needs in Health, Education, Housing etc. cannot be predicted early enough to enable member states to plan for it.
Johnson's plan- get the plebs to protest outside the embassy is about as empty as you can get- Complete lack of thinking on what to do with a resurgent and expansionist Russian state
our low unemployment is built on a very shaky foundation of 0 hrs contracts and CEOs far more interested in share price than the health of their company, hence ur huge productivity gap
Careful kimbers, you are straying into BSer territory there. ZHC are <3% of total jobs and the productivity is driven by other factors. Otherwise carry on
Crap tax receipt figures today - falsifying the arguments that all data have been good post Brexshit. And as the FT noted, unlike surveys, tax receipts are hard facts
fair enough, I was also thinking more of the hermes/ubberfication of market eg http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37678065
and as for CEOs, there are some excellent examples of these in the news lately
some of them [s]are [/s]were even knighted
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molgrips - MemberYes. The Delphi poster is a damn good illustration of the positives imo. And we didn't see it during the campaign.
Of course, every time they raised access to the single market, the leave campaign said "but we'll have access to the single market so don't worry about it". The graphic is more effective now because the conversation has changed.
So.. all these Poles and other Eastern Europeans.. if they stay here and have kids, their kids will end up with their local accents.. and they are of course white. They will have British citizenship too - so how will we be able to tell they're immigrants?
There's probably a dental test.how will we be able to tell they're immigrants?
Steady Molgrips can't say that... who are UKIP going to scapegoat in the future!
Polish builders kids disguising their accents - Daily Mail headline
Everyone knows the EU is dysfunctional. Even most ardent Remainers argued for a reformed EU. The fact is the only reform has been a march away from what the Remainers wanted (never mind Leavers). The voters saw this for what it is.
Surely that's just the attitude of someone who doesn't want it to work no matter what the evidence.
I just wonder have you ever stood back and thought - hmm that's not a bad idea that the EU implemented. Or is it just you despise everything about it? The very concept of it rather than what it could achieve.
I too agree with the above there was not enough positive debate about it. But when has the media ever dwelled on the positive? The Brits appear to be great at dismantling (although that's not working out too well here) but terrible at suggesting a better alternative or decent consensus. Because that takes work.
You just have to listen to the anti British sentiment being spouted by EU leaders to understand that the EU totally undemocratic.
I have already decided I won't be buying any bloody french goods going forward. Yawn, yawn. Getting rather tired of hearing the threatening rhetoric coming from those across the channel.
Just reinforces my view that the club stinks and I'm glad I put my tick where I did. Now if our politicians could just hurry up and drag us out I'd be much happier.
You just have to listen to the anti British sentiment being spouted by EU leaders to understand that the EU totally undemocratic.
its almost as if someone gave them the idea we are all ****s
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More cheese and wine for us. You can have your baked beans.
So.. all these Poles and other Eastern Europeans.. if they stay here and have kids, their kids will end up with their local accents.. and they are of course white. They will have British citizenship too - so how will we be able to tell they're immigrants?
They'll be bilingual, so easily distinguished from the natives 🙂
Flanagaj - you just stuck two fingers up at them. What do you expect?
I think you are a little arrogant, perhaps not thinking too clearly.
Its sad how far apart we all are on this topic, especially when I expect we all want more or less the same things from our lives.
As the debate progressed I just was not convinced that there was anything good in the EU that we cant have without being in the EU? I accept that doesn't mean stuff s better outside the EU but if stuff is not appreciably better or worse that who cares whether we're in or out? At the risk of re-running the Life of Brian, what good came out of the EU? Science funding - we can replace that surely? CAP - I doubt that will be missed?
I can only conclude that for a lot of people the EU is like a comfort blanket. Its familiarity is comforting even though it serves no useful purpose. I genuinely think we will do better outside the EU.
One of the things along with ECHR and NATO that has helped stabilise inter country relationships in Europe.
Our biggest trading partner and part of our economic defence against the US and Asia
A bunch of people that every time I meet them I like.
There's three good things.
Britain was great once. We decided to trash it on 23rd June. The Brexiters should be locked up for treason - or at least called out for a lack of patriotism.
hh45, the world is full of regulations and standards. You can either try and help write them or do as your told. Put simply that is why IMO Brexit is a stupid idea.
There is no possibility of a country being in sole control of its future anymore.