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Are there any 'pro-Corbyn' MP's anywhere outside the labour front bench? The vast majority of his own MPs think he's a liability and he'd make a terrible PM, so getting any Tory's to back him is going to be harder than if it were any other Labour MP, with the possible exception of Dennis Skinner.
Pretty much any other politician would get support a lot more readily than Corbyn. Ironically its him and Boris who represent the 2 most marmite figures in parliament
getting MPs on side who might not be “pro-Corbyn” is essential.
Likewise it is essential to have those pro-Corbyn MPs onside who might be put off by voting in a right winger. Which will almost certainly be used to attack them later.
Lets face it the last time the Libdems enabled a government it didnt really go well for most.
Good to see this anything to stop brexit has lots of terms and conditions attached.
Depends on whether you are after a cross party agreement to get us through the autumn, and avoid No Deal, or just see Brexit as the means to get Corbyn as PM.
And as for the “anti-Corbyn” comment … getting MPs on side who might not be “pro-Corbyn” is essential.
The best way to get an agreement is Corbyn's proposal. He has the numbers and the means if Swinson drops her pre-conditions. Anti-Corbyn MPs will need to decide if they're prepared to pay the price of no-deal Brexit in order to prevent him from becoming temporary PM. If PC and SNP agree with Corbyn (as they may well do given their early indications) then the Lib Dems are going to be isolated - what then? Are they going to abstain in a VONC?
“It’s not about, in this immediate case, who is prime minister, it is about stopping that act of economic self-harm that all of us would suffer from.”
Makes sense. So no need for it to necessarily be Corbyn then? So that’s not going to be a pre-condition for any talks? Good.
He has the numbers
He does? So more MPs will back an interim government with him at the helm than would vote for an interim government with an alternative Labour caretaker PM? Is that your understanding of the situation?
It's amusing that that anti-no-deal side are just as useless and caught up with in-fighting and posturing than the no-deal team.
*sighes*
Every other significant player will enter discussions without preconditions. Swinson will only enter discussions with the precondition that Corbyn is ousted.
Very principled and shows her true right wing colours. She is saying she would rather have Brexit than Corbyn as PM.
Every other significant player will enter discussions without preconditions.
So is Corbyn being the interim PM a precondition or not?
She is saying she would rather have Brexit than Corbyn as PM.
Is Corbyn saying he would rather have Brexit than have someone else as PM calling the election he has been calling for since 2017?
Look, everyone is playing awkward buggers for the gallery, for sure, eapecially Swinson, but asking for the caretaker PM to be someone other than Corbyn should be no surprise to anyone. And Labour have no real reason not to put forward someone else for the short term role, leaving Corbyn free to campaign openly to try and win the election, rather than doing the very measured balancing act the interim PM will need to perform.
Bugger me, I agree with Blackford, and Sinn Fein, and broadly (except in some specific areas) TJ.
Thoughts and prayers please everyone.
One comment though: Its a wee bit rich for labour types to be accusing the lib dems of "playing politics for their own advantage" at this stage.
After 3 years of handwaving, doublespeak and prevarication I can get why the lib dems are a bit untrusting and would like a bit of a chat about firming up any details.
Makes sense. So no need for it to be Corbyn then? So that’s not going to be a pre-condition for any talks? Good.
Sigh. He is the leader of the official opposition. He is the default PM if the government collapses. So the anti-corbynists will need to set out why they propose to disregard our constitutional conventions and how they plan to get the numbers for a different leader to win in a VONC.
Someone remind me how many labour MPs there are compared to Lib Dems? Why does Swinson think she gets to choose? Parliamentary convention is clear on this. Only the leader of the opposition can call a VONC, and if the govt falls the leader of the opposition gets the opportunity to try to form a govt. Corbyn has been crystal clear that the terms of that will be temporary to extend A50 and call an election. At that point Swinson will have to put her money where her mouth is about how serious she is about avoiding a no deal, for if a VONC fails or a new govt cannot be formed, that is what we will get.
Kelvin - nope. Everyone else is going into open talks without preconditions. Of course labour will push for Corbyn and of course the tory rebels will balk at that - but only one player is refusing to talk until Corbyn agrees to go.
Given this plan (however late and contrived it may be) is about the only hope now of avoiding a no-deal Brexit then if Swinson/Lib Dems cause it to fail I'll certainly not be voting for them in a GE.
So is Corbyn as the interim PM a precondition for Labour or not when it comes to talks? I’m genuinely confused.
Agreed that all parties should enter talks without preconditions. Pleased how many (and Rebel Tory MPs) have said that they will.
Given this plan (however late and contrived it may be) is about the only hope now of avoiding a no-deal Brexit then if Swinson/Lib Dems cause it to fail I’ll certainly not be voting for them in a GE.
Quite. They seem to have forgotten that they're not even the third party. If Labour, SNP, PC and Greens are all whipped to support this proposal then it's difficult to see how the Lib Dems could oppose it and avoid no deal.
So is Corbyn as the interim PM a precondition for Labour or not when it comes to talks? I’m genuinely confused.
It's a condition of the constitution. But you've already been told that twice so I'm at a loss as to why you find it confusing.
Great.
Previously we had
Red Brexit
Blue Brexit
Brexit Brexit
Vs
Lose coalition of SNP/Green/Lib Dems who were organising (sort of) to not oppose eachother and dilute the pro-remain vote.
Now we have
Blue Brexit
Brexit Brexit
Vs
Complete shambles.
If I thought Corbyn had the wit, I'd think this was a masterstroke by a man who wants out of the EU at all costs, wait until it's too late to switch sides, and the wheels are coming off of the hard brexit party bus in the face of reality, then switch sides and cause carnage, thereby enabling hard brexit...
It’s a condition of the constitution.
Which constitution? And what does it say? I presume it doesn’t mention Corbyn by name. Can Labour not put forward anyone they want to be a caretaker PM, and ask as many MPs across the house to support them as possible? Where does it say it must be the leader of the largest party and no one else?
Which constitution? And what does it say?
FFS stop being so facetious. Yes, we get it, you don't want Corbyn as PM. Whether you like it or not all parliamentary convention results in the leader of the opposition being the person to challenge the government on issues of confidence. You want to rip up all the rules and precedents now when there is no time? Or do you want to stop no deal? Which is more important?
So is Corbyn as the interim PM a precondition for Labour or not when it comes to talks? I’m genuinely confused.
Clearly you are confused. I haven't seen any preconditions from Corbyn or anyone on the labour side.
Swinson is just showing her political naivety and incompetence along with her right wing viewpoint
So it isn’t a pre-condition of talks that Corbyn would be have to be interim PM? Good. If that’s the case, the LibDems need to get into talks pronto and not grandstand then.
Rebel Conservative MPs have agreed to meet Jeremy Corbyn to discuss how to stop Boris Johnson pursuing a no-deal Brexit, without committing to backing him as a caretaker leader.
So why won't Swinson do the same?
She is saying Harman or Clark
It is understood Harman would back a Corbyn-led temporary government as a first option, but could be open to other possibilities if this did not garner enough support.
Swinson’s refusal to back a Corbyn-led government was condemned by Labour as “childish”, with the SNP and Greens also urging her to reconsider.
All in todays Grauniad
Which constitution? And what does it say? I presume it doesn’t mention Corbyn by name. Can Labour not put forward anyone they want to be a caretaker PM, and ask as many MPs across the house to support them as possible? Where does it say it must be the leader of the largest party and no one else?
Again, Corbyn is the Leader of the Opposition. He gets to call the VONC and no-one else. As I said earlier, if the Lib Dems wish to set out a different arrangement, then they will need to explain why, and how they will get sufficient votes to succeed.
The starting pont is of course as Ransos and Dazh outline - that the official leader of the opposition gets first go at forming an alternative government. thats how the rules go. If they cannot then anyone else who fancies it can have a go.
Obviously the tory rebels will not stomach Corbyn but they are astute enough to not say this before talks.
Only the leader of the opposition can call the VONC (a convention behind upheld by the speaker, not a written rule)… that doesn’t stop Labour putting someone else forward to lead a replacement government, does it? If they think that person has a better chance of putting through business? Our “constitution” is pretty fluid… if the house backs someone to be PM, they can be.
Only the leader of the opposition can call the VONC (a convention behind upheld by the speaker, not a written rule)… that doesn’t stop Labour putting someone else forward to lead a replacement government, does it?
So you think Labour should nominate somebody who isn't their elected leader?
Yes, for a government that needs the backing of many non-Labour MPs, with the sole intention of delaying our exit from the EU, and calling a general election. Just get those steps put in place, then campaign to win.
So it isn’t a pre-condition of talks that Corbyn would be have to be interim PM?
Why the obsession with preconditions? It's about facts, and the fact is that Corbyn is HM Leader of the Opposition. That isn't a made up or honorary title, it's a formal role for which he is paid with responsibilities, duties and requisite powers attached. One of those is the ability to call a VONC and form a new govt if successful. No one else can do it. Time is very short, and there are few other options. If MPs don't support either a VONC, or the temporary govt which might result, then we will leave the EU with no deal. It's a very simple and straightforward situation.
It should also be noted that for months all the Corbyn-obsessives on here have been howling about his 'lack of opposition'. Now he's actually doing that and there is a straightforward and sensible path to stopping no deal with no conditions attached other than having an election, you're all complaining that you don't want him to do it. Do you want to stop a no deal or not?
Swinson may well be right that a differnt leader would find it easier to command the support of other parties - however its stupid politics to make it a precondition.
The SNP leader, Nicola Sturgeon, said her party was “willing to work across party lines and explore all options to stop a no-deal Brexit”. She tweeted: “Jeremy Corbyn’s suggestion is not the only possible option – but given the circumstances, nothing should be ruled out at this stage. Jo Swinson should rethink.”
Caroline Lucas, the sole Green MP, tweeted a video message appealing to Swinson to change her mind. She said: “Jo, we need to stop Boris Johnson. We need a people’s vote. Please join us in engaging with Corbyn to see if we can find a way forward.”
Out of these talks a different interim PM may well emerge.
you’re all complaining that you don’t want him to do it
I’m happy for it to be Corbyn that is the caretaker PM, personally… but if Labour are more likely to be given the chance by the house to delay Brexit and call the election they want with someone else leading the short lived special case government, then that should happen.
Yes, for a government that needs the backing of many non-Labour MPs, with the intention of delaying our exit from the EU and calling an election.
Right, so the elected leader should step aside for an unelected leader, why is this? As I keep saying, if you wish to pursue an alternative to the default arrangements, then you need to make a case for it. Of course, Swinson can't do this because it would mean admitting that she rather have no deal than Corbyn as temporary PM.
I'd like to stop no-deal, please.
Has Corbyn stated in an irrevocable manner that he and thus the entire Labour Party will do VONC then interim gov then election then second ref is going to happen?
Has Corbyn stated in an irrevocable manner that he and thus the entire Labour Party will do VONC then interim gov then election then second ref is going to happen?
It's a proposal to the other parties. There's no point calling a VONC if they won't support it, so the ball's in their court.
Has Corbyn stated in an irrevocable manner that he and thus the entire Labour Party will do VONC then interim gov then election then second ref is going to happen?
Corbyns letter to the other parties is here:
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1161751909788782594/photo/1
Has Corbyn stated in an irrevocable manner that he and thus the entire Labour Party will do VONC then interim gov then election then second ref is going to happen?
He asking for their support in a VONC, and then to support a govt with him as it's leader. In return he's promised that he will be in post only long enough to agree an extension to A50 with the EU and then to call a general election. He's also said labour will stand at that election on a promise to offer a second referendum on brexit with a remain option. So in answer to your question, yes, absolutely.
Right, so the elected leader should step aside for an unelected leader, why is this?
Because making the Labour Party Leader PM will be seen by many in the country as if all those who support the act support him. Where as an actual caretaker PM, who will not be leading any party into the election that follows, can be backed by the house without the non-Labour MPs then being open to the same accusation of backing Corbyn come the election. In many ways it would be best if someone outside the main parties was the caretaker… but Labour are big enough to insist on them being a Labour politician… but trying to go beyond that and force Corbyn (or any other Labour Leader) on the house makes it much harder to get cross party support. And the country needs a short term cross party backed government to delay our exit date… and call a general election and/or referendum to try and move us on.
Because making the Labour Party Leader PM will be seen by many in the country as if all those who support the act support him. Where as an actual caretaker PM, who will not be leading any party into the election that follows, can be backed by the house without the non-Labour MPs then being open to the same accusation of backing Corbyn come the election.
Which may be fine for the Lib Dems, but likely disastrous for Labour in a GE. The idea of trying to canvas support for a leader who didn't step up to be caretaker PM in a crisis is laughable.
but trying to go beyond that and force Corbyn (or any other Labour Leader) on the house makes it much harder to get cross party support.
Again, he is not being forced on the House, because he is proposing the default position.
Doublespeak. Labour can propose anyone they want to be the caretaker PM… pretending they have no choice in the matter isn’t credible. It’s like Brexit cheerleaders saying the “default position” is leaving the EU without a deal… pretending that inaction, or failing to propose an alternative, isn’t a choice. It is.
He asking for their support in a VONC, and then to support a govt with him as it’s leader. In return he’s promised that he will be in post only long enough to agree an extension to A50 with the EU and then to call a general election. He’s also said labour will stand at that election on a promise to offer a second referendum on brexit with a remain option. So in answer to your question, yes, absolutely.
With the important caveat that a VONC won't happen unless the opposition parties unite to support it.
Given that Corbyn is offering everything that Remainers wanted (election and second ref with remain on the paper) this thread is ample evidence that there is nothing he can do that will satisfy them.
Doublespeak. Labour can propose anyone they want to be the caretaker PM… pretending they have no choice in the matter isn’t credible.
Strawman. No-one is pretending that so stop making up an argument to suit your purposes.
For the umpteenth time, Corbyn is acting in accordance with the constitution and parliamentary convention. He is also acting in a way that is likely to strengthen Labour in a GE, which is his duty as its leader.
Others are free to propose alternatives but they need to set out why and how. It's not at all surprising that they seem reticent on this issue.
this thread is ample evidence that there is nothing he can do that will satisfy them
Hey, I’m a “Remainer”, I’ve said the letter was a good move, that I’m happy with it, and will now be voting Labour with Corbyn as Leader again, as I did in 2017. But to get that general election will take a cross party supported caretaker PM, and that is more likely if someone other than Corbyn is put forward by Labour.
Given that Corbyn is offering everything that Remainers wanted (election and second ref with remain on the paper) this thread is ample evidence that there is nothing he can do that will satisfy them
They are just constantly splicing the logic up.
Well, that's straightforward, or not.
Is he for Brexit or not? Seems like that shows he'd still quite rather like a super smashing new fantasy Labour version of Brexit.
Just to be clear, if Corbyn can genuinely do this, I'm voting for it.
But to get that general election will take a cross party supported caretaker PM, and that is more likely if someone other than Corbyn is put forward by Labour.
I don't think we have any way of knowing that. An alternative pathway is for the Lib Dems to grow up.
Is he for Brexit or not? Seems like that shows he’d still quite rather like a super smashing new fantasy Labour version of Brexit.
All three options on that diagram give you a referendum with remain as an option. So what's the problem?