[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

molgrips - Member
but it got steam rollered due to an ill considered attempt to centralise in Europe
Ah so that's the source of your antipathy.

Well please don't steamroller all the rest of our jobs out of spite, ok?

I swear to you I, we haven't broken your crockery, or tried to steam roller you out of jobs, out of spite.I remember now you telling me of your businesses funding issues and I truly hope they work out, I'm sure they will unless the bastards try a Brexit excuse to cutback for other reasons like so many other chancers are right now.

But I, we, have to be positive, it is the only way and swerve with the pitch and roll of it all. I'm already looking for another job with a UK manufacturer with the hop I can use all my external contacts to export to and trust me whoever it was back there worrying about trade deals, if we came up with that machine that turned lead into gold, they would sure as hell find a way to buy it regardless of who sets the trade tariffs.

if we were in a bar somewhere and I could explain to you the intricacies of dealing with the EU and the way the deck is stacked against us here in the UK, it might also help you understand that part of my reasoning.

But I, we, have to be positive, it is the only way and swerve with the pitch and roll of it all.........
if we came up with that machine that turned lead into gold

We do, 5e, yes. However - when computers and machines and such were invented, we adapted with higher skill jobs with better prospects to do more creative inventive things.

If our economy slides for a long time we might end up regressing instead of progressing. My Dad, his dad, and who knows how many male ancestors worked in coal mines. I'm currently sitting in a hotel in Basel delivering consultancy and development to a global company. This is better than manual labour in a dark hole all day. And I'm not any cleverer than my ancestors.

if we were in a bar somewhere and I could explain to you the intricacies of dealing with the EU and the way the deck is stacked against us here in the UK, it might also help you understand that part of my reasoning.

Why does it need a bar? I'd love to hear the argument, genuinely. If nothing else so I could feel positive about something in all this mess instead of depressed.

The EU let me spend 18 months working in Finland, which was profoundly beautiful. Spending each weekend zipping through the boreal forest in snow, moonlight, bedtime sunshine, it was tremendous, and an experience I'd never have had otherwise. All I had to do was answer a job advert. And I made some proper good friends too.

This is immensely valuable to me. And you've taken it away. So understand my negativity.

Basel is in Switzerland, they are not in the EU, have any trouble getting in there?

The is a company out there exactly like my old one, it benefited tremendously from the marketing I delivered, for the products we both sold, they are still there prospering, precisely because they were not in the EU, am I bitter? Probably a little bit, the fact I'm still mentioning it. but whatever that bit of your work shouldn't change should it?

tjagain - Member
Also our closed door on refugees is the EUs fault despite most EU nations especially germany taking in millions of refugees? Remember we created the refugees with our warmongering in the middle east along with our partners in crime the US.

Hello! earth to Rosscore....... are you receiving me.....

the way the deck is stacked against us here in the UK

We joined the EU in 1973. Back then we were the 6th largest economy in the world. We are now the 5th (and we were the 4th for a while). If the deck was stacked against us then wouldn't things have got worse rather than better?

[img] [/img]
[url= http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=GB ]sauce[/url]

Basel is in Switzerland, they are not in the EU, have any trouble getting in there?

Yes. I'm doing work for the Swiss branch of the same company, so it should be the easiest thing. However even then I'm only allowed to do 8 days of work in the country without obtaining a work permit. We need at least 20 days to do the immediate part of the job. If I have to stay longer than something like 30 days I think a business visa is required, and (as explained to me so I'm not sure I got it correctly) that means that a portion of my income has to be taxed in Switzerland.. which means that my company has to reimburse me for it somehow.. not sure about the details or if my colleagues were out of pocket directly. Same applied in reverse to my Swiss colleague as he spent some time outside of Switzerland, apparently it takes years to sort out.

Also done assignments in Germany - hardest thing I had to do there was talk to the Taxi drivers in German. In Sweden the hardest thing was riding my bike in the snow after work.

Basel is in Switzerland, they are not in the EU, have any trouble getting in there?

Switzerland, like Norway, is part of the [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association ]EFTA[/url] which accepts EU rules, accepts freedom of movement, pays into the EU budget, but doesn't get a vote in the EU.

Is that the deal you want for the UK?

. I'm currently sitting in a hotel in Basel delivering consultancy and development to a global company.

Metropolitan elite then?

Bet it's not as glamorous as it sound BnD

I wager he lives in some backwater like Cardiff

Metropolitan elite then?

Er I dunno. I live in Cardiff, is that a metropolis?

rosscore - Member

kelvin - Member
So, without the EU expanding past the Berlin Wall, Europe would be safer from an ever threatening Russia?
You really think that?

I already said it a while back, they should have stopped at Poland/and the Czech/Slovak republics, the destabilisation of Ukraine by in essence the Corporate US is what has woken Russia from her slumbers, that and the 'theft' of their former satellite states of the USSR, Bulgaria, Romania, Lithuania, Latvia etc.
Yes I most definitely believe that.

Well, it seems Jamba and chewkw have some catching up to do if they want to beat this lunacy 😯

[quote=molgrips ]Metropolitan elite then?
Er I dunno. I live in Cardiff, is that a metropolis?
You do have a Superman costume - right?

Switzerland, like Norway, is part of the EFTA which accepts EU rules, accepts freedom of movement, pays into the EU budget, but doesn't get an vote in the EU.

Except they don't like freedom of movement

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-single-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens

You do have a Superman costume - right?

CAPTAIN AMERICA

FFS

I'm currently sitting in a hotel in Basel delivering consultancy and development to a global company. This is better than manual labour in a dark hole all day. And I'm not any cleverer than my ancestors.

No BnD they don't - and their negotiations with the EU over that are going really well aren't they?

Airports and hotels all look the same.

Yes but they are all better than coal mines. As is the rest of the job.

Yes but they are all better than coal mines. As is the rest of the job.

but I gather you've been away, welcome back, was it [s]Pentonville[/s] [b]Strangeways[/b]?

More apt 😉

[b]I blame the EU for computers, bringing former USSR countries in from the cold, courts with a jurisdiction above national governments, and increased specialisation and cooperation of industries across the continent.[/b]

No, hang on, were they not all things that the UK sought, and 'till recently, kept seeking to achieve?
Not only haven't we finished, but we are blaming our neighbours for the ideas we gifted them!
We must look completely barmy to other Europeans with any knowledge of modern history.

🙂 I did actually spend 8 months in pentonville....................

Working!

@TJ I was proved wrong about Trump, I said he couldn't win the nomination. On the EU and Brexit I am pretty confident we have made the right decision and it will be a success.

@molgrips Yes there are risks however, I think the financial risks of Remain outweigh Leave. I used the Turkey voting for Christmas metaphor for Remain people only saw the next meal and not what lay down the road. I am aure the EU wanted it just that way like a Python crushing the life out of it's victim

You think their electorate are going to look at the nosediving pound, stunted growth and growing inflation and say "Wow! We want some of that!"

Their strong currency makes a holiday to the UK cheaper but selling goods to us more expensive
Our growth still exceeds theirs (our unemployment is half theirs)
Inflation perhaps but it's ticking up in parts if Europe too

As for wanting some of that let's see how the elections in Austria, Holland, France and Germany go

I'm back! What did I miss?

Have those morons who voted out realised what they have done yet?

I am aure the EU wanted it just that way like a Python crushing the life out of it's victim

no comment required

You seem unable to set out a clear backed up argument as to why the EU would actually damage our prospects compared to being out, Jam. Very keen to hear this set out, will someone please set it out for me?

I get what's wrong with the Euro, but not the EU.

And I'm not saying there are just risks to leaving. I am saying there are definitely massive problems, and I cannot see how they will be solved.

Have those morons who voted out realised what they have done yet?

Nope, they seem to have reached greater levels of surrealism though

[quote=tjagain ] I did actually spend 8 months in pentonville....................
Working!

Laundry or kitchen?

Scanning the papers today, it seems that even the Telegraph is turning against the harder end of Brexit. They actually had a piece explaining why most of the harder options won't work - bringing them into line with the Times, Independent and Gruniad.

I think that leaves the Mail and Express as the voice of (Brexit) reason. The Sun might still be warbling about it, but I think they're more interested in who might be nude.

Papers make an interesting barometer.

no comment required

Except your made one ? EU is a political project to create a European superstate, crushing the independence out of the constituents is a requirement

@molgrips the euro IS the EU. It's the centrepiece of the whole project and its been a disaster,
doomed from the start (and I was a believer initially). Then we add in everything else and it shows catastrophic incompetance. That's a huge Economic risk. No doubt in my mind it's held back our growth in the past 10-20 years.

those morons who voted out

Chapeau, very considered and inclusive

very considered

More considered than any of your flat earthier contributions.

jambalaya - Member
@TJ I was proved wrong about Trump, I said he couldn't win the nomination. On the EU and Brexit I am pretty confident we have made the right decision and it will be a success

First part of the statement you admit you were wrong about Trump winning nomination, why should we trust your judgement this time around?

Businesses are apprehensive about what's going to happens when we have the prime minister kissing up to manufacturers to remain in the UK, whilst cutting a deal for the city, where her husband works to remain part of Europe at what cost to the rest of the country. We were lied to by a bunch of self serving tossers out for their own gains.

The Remain Campaign where pretty clear about what Leave would mean. So what's all the fuss about ?

Can't think why we'd be confused Jamba:

[url= https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1961950/theresa-may-refuses-to-say-if-she-will-keep-britain-in-the-single-market-as-jeremy-corbyn-attacks-her-over-her-brexit-strategy-at-pmqs/ ]Theresa May refuses to say if she will keep Britain in the single market (Sun, 12th October 2016)[/url]

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-referendum-single-market-theresa-may-tory-conservatives-a7358471.html ]Senior Tories demand Theresa May ends Brexit uncertainty over single market (Independent, 12th October 2016[/url]

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-single-market-theresa-may-to-pay-billions-for-access-report-a7365226.html ]Brexit: Theresa May 'considering paying billions of pounds to access single market' (Independent, 17 October 2016)[/url]

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/17/cabinet-considers-plan-to-keep-citys-single-market-access-by-pay/ ]Cabinet considers plan to keep City's single market access by 'paying billions to EU' after Brexit (Telegraph, 17 October 2016)[/url]

The Remain Campaign where pretty clear about what Leave would mean.

They were [b]WARNING[/b] that voting to leave the EU is likely to result in us being taken out of the single market.

And it looks like they were right.

The warned us about a lot of other things that might happen.

I hope they were wrong,

@jimster it's clear to me whatever the Conservative Government does you'd say much the same no matter what the result on June 23rd would have been

@kelvin why not try and make a token effort to discuss the issue. Time will show how Brexit will work and allow us to judge it's success. So far the data is good and we can consign to the bin Project Fear of Cameron/Osbourne and we have an effective apology from the IMF that they where far too pessimistic

No we are not going to be in "THE Single Market" as the EU says that requires freedom of movement and a budget contribution. What was said is we would try and negotiate "A free trade deal". It's a different thing. Of course a hard exit and return to WTO tariffs is an option. Personally I think it's a good option. It works for Australia, USA, China, South Korea etc

jambalaya - Member

So far the data is good and we can consign to the bin Project Fear of Cameron/Osbourne and we have an effective apology from the IMF that they where far too pessimistic

a) how the **** is the data good?

b) we haven't left yet

So no single market and we'll try and negotiate a deal with a trade block that now has a vested interest in seeing us suffer - fingers crossed someone takes pity and does us a favour in return for cake and biscuits. Slow handclap, Brexit - slow handclap.

No we are not going to be in "THE Single Market" as the EU says that requires freedom of movement and a budget contribution.

Yet we are apparently still going to pay them billions and [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37705852 ]allow freedom of movement for skilled workers[/url] and [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/08/european-bankers-will-be-exempt-from-migration-curbs-after-brexi/ ]bankers[/url]?

zokes - Still not a customer

rosscore - Member

kelvin - Member
So, without the EU expanding past the Berlin Wall, Europe would be safer from an ever threatening Russia?
You really think that?

I already said it a while back, they should have stopped at Poland/and the Czech/Slovak republics, the destabilisation of Ukraine by in essence the Corporate US is what has woken Russia from her slumbers, that and the 'theft' of their former satellite states of the USSR, Bulgaria, Romania, Lithuania, Latvia etc.
Yes I most definitely believe that.

Well, it seems Jamba and chewkw have some catching up to do if they want to beat this lunacy

[b]I agree with rosscore 100%.[/b]

This concept of EU must be curbed at all cost. Very troublesome bunch of bureaucrats who like to intervene in others internal affairs. i.e. they like to stick their noses into other nations affairs like the Obama administration.

It works for Australia, USA, China, South Korea etc

jambalaya - Member
So far the data is good and we can consign to the bin Project Fear of Cameron/Osbourne

are you actually on a different planet?

the £ is through the floor, Nissan stopping investment in sunderland and UK scientists being shut out of EU funding grants are the only things we can attribute to the vote so far.

Some parts of the economy are strong - jobs are staying good, and thats while we are still in the EU, so how come immigrants aren stealing all our jobs and all these the EU laws are stiffiling us???

@kimbers...I often wonder if @jambayla is actually a robot poster or spoof persona (being serious here). Since @jambaylas's posts dont seem to follow the normal principles of dialogue, reasoning, logic, evidence based opinion or empathy.

@molgrips the euro IS the EU

What the hell are you talking about? That makes absoultely no sense.

Mol a little but fairer to consider the wider statement as it explains why Jambas remains confused

@molgrips the euro IS the EU. It's the centrepiece of the whole project and its been a disaster,
doomed from the start (and I was a believer initially).

This is actually not too bad but it's a typical BSer tactic. Why because it's not central to the debate - which should be what is the best structure to maximise our benefits and minimise our risks - we are not part of the Euro. We are not part of Schenged etc. WE HAD THE PEFECT DEAL. Now we don't know what we have but we are still exposed to

Then we add in everything else and it shows catastrophic incompetance. That's a huge Economic risk. No doubt in my mind it's held back our growth in the past 10-20 years.

Which is why the BSers case is so illogical and badly though through. The technical term is BOLLOCKS

First part of the statement you admit you were wrong

A momentous post, and the only worthwhile thing to come out of this thread <bookmarked>

Why because it's not central to the debate - which should be what is the best structure to maximise our benefits and minimise our risks - we are not part of the Euro. We are not part of Schenged etc. WE HAD THE PEFECT DEAL. Now we don't know what we have but we are still exposed to

So because we are alright we should stand by and let an unaccountable juggernaut spread corporate fascism throughout Europe? Technocrats vetoing the democratic will of voters?

So because we are alright we should stand by and let an unaccountable juggernaut spread corporate fascism

[img] [/img]

So because we are alright we should stand by and let an unaccountable juggernaut spread corporate fascism throughout Europe?

No - we should put ourselves in a position where we have no influence so they can get on with that without us

So because we are alright we should stand by and let an unaccountable juggernaut spread corporate fascism throughout Europe?

What does this mean? Can you explain please?

So because we are alright we should stand by and let an unaccountable juggernaut spread corporate fascism throughout Europe? Technocrats vetoing the democratic will of voters?

I would love to join you Ross but its a bit too early

What does this mean? Can you explain please?

It's the one that says "ROAR. No computers or Russians" above the door.

So jamba - are you going to admit your statement that only Germany and the UK pay into the EU was complete nonsense?

Pot

It means, that part of the reason I voted out was in the hope that by doing so, the nightmare that is the EU will be brought to an end. That Nightmare includes what it is doing to the peoples of Southern Europe, and Greece in particular, the fact that it offers Corporate America a nice big market to expand it's influence within, so the likes of Soros can spread his cancerous revenge into the Ukraine with the tacit backing of that military industrial combine, I know cue pictures of tinfoil hats, but whatever, they gave me a chance to rebel and I did.

My hope is that other countries will now act similarly and the whole edifice will come crashing down and in it's place we might end up with what we voted to join in the first place, a group of sovereign independent nations trading peacefully together with no ulterior motive other than peace and prosperity.

Unless you have been living in a cave for the past 2 months, you are going to be very disappointed to hear that May and Co are taking the UK in the opposite direction of the utopia described above.

they game me a chance to rebel and I did

You must be very proud.

they game me a chance to rebel and I did

At what cost though? For all of us, not just you?

The EU has a lot of positives. You just don't want to see them.

[quote=rosscore ] they gave me a chance to rebel and I did.

[img] [/img]

molgrips - Member
they game me a chance to rebel and I did
At what cost though? For all of us, not just you?

The EU has a lot of positives. You just don't want to see them.

I never voted for the Federal Republic of Europe and I don't want to be part of it

As pointed out before the "United States of Europe" was very much part of [url= http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html ]Churchill's original vision[/url] in 1946.

I never voted for the Federal Republic of Europe and I don't want to be part of it,

Nor did I, we weren't

Manufacturing recovery?

Of what? To sell where?

we'll have a manufacturing led recovery, just as we did in the early nineties

In the 90s, before the rise of BRICS and when we were part of a massive free trade area where we could sell our manufactured goods?

The £ will recover, we'll have a manufacturing led recovery

Why?

molgrips - Member
The £ will recover, we'll have a manufacturing led recovery
Why?

[quote=rosscore ]molgrips - Member
The £ will recover, we'll have a manufacturing led recovery
Why?
Because eventually inflation will cut in, interest rates will rise, which could happen sooner than later, bearing in mind oil is priced in USD, Gas? no idea €'s maybe, but prices are going to increase inlfation will soar above the BOE's target and away we go on another merry go round with the city boys making fortunes whatever happens, as it is some UK websites are having an absolute field day at the moment still trading on pre Brexit pricing, that is all about to change as 2017 model year pricing hits.

You do realise if interest rates rise then the economy is truly ****ed

We have an economy based on people mortgaged up to the hilt or in negative equity. If that house of cards finally collapses, it'll make the 2008 crash look like a minor blip

Because eventually inflation will cut in, interest rates will rise, which could happen sooner than later, bearing in mind oil is priced in USD, Gas? no idea €'s maybe, but prices are going to increase inlfation will soar above the BOE's target and away we go on another merry go round with the city boys making fortunes whatever happens, as it is some UK websites are having an absolute field day at the moment still trading on pre Brexit pricing, that is all about to change as 2017 model year pricing hits.

Why will that develop manufacturing?

Because eventually inflation will cut in, interest rates will rise

Well I'm not an economist, so I must be missing how higher interest rates help manufacturers.

I am, but I am thoroughly confused 😉

So had the EEC, which was why I voted to join, I don't suppose many of you did, this is my second vote on the matter, this time I corrected an earlier mistake. I never voted for the Federal Republic of Europe and I don't want to be part of it

Exactly the view of my parents and many Leave supporters who voted in '75. Everyone was lied to, it's there in black and white in the Government leaflet of the day.

Yup the £ is going to recover against the $ as it's being knocked down at the moment by traders. Govt is happy to watch as the lower rate really piles the pressure on the EU and it helps UK business. As for the € the currency isn't going to exist in its current form within a few years, it cannot survive.

Exactly the view of my parents and many Leave supporters who voted in '75

Yay, all the folks who will be over 60 by the time we leave playing with the future of the country.

Yup the £ is going to recover against the $ as it's being knocked down at the moment by traders.

why?

Govt is happy to watch as the lower rate really piles the pressure on the EU and it helps UK business.

they are not that silly

As for the € the currency isn't going to exist in its current form within a few years, it cannot survive.

True, but so what, we are not part of it?

Jamba - according to you the demise of the euro was due a couple of years ago.

@rosscore I wouldn't bother arguing with pessimists about the Economy. They want to see only bad news, press get that as they are driven now by online ads / clickbait. The use of "could" or "may" and a big scary headline = £££. So far all the data is good and has crushed the doomsday-ers IMF included. Let's just wait and see. There have been less bumps in the road so far than I expected and I didn't anticipate such a large pickup in manufacturing so quickly for certain

I'm still struggling to understand how a low pound helps UK business?

We pay more for imports, receive more for exports, correct?
But we import [i]way[/i] more than we export (by about £4.7 billion a month [url= http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/aug2016#main-figures-for-august-2016 ]at the moment[/url]) so isn't that a negative effect overall?

Plus the low pound means we all pay more for fuel which increases costs further.

Why why why? Don't any of you read anything?

Forex is largely a fully computerised activity these days, billions are traded by algorithms, which dwell on anything said by virtually anyone in positions of power, if Carney so much as hinted on restoring the interest rate level to 1/2 of one percent you would see a recovery in sterling.

So it went down, did any of your mortgages, I have a two year fixed, its ending as I write this, my new mortgage is more expensive, despite the lower interest rate, why, because mortagage companies can't make a margin over the base rate so they apply what the hell they like and the market will take.

So far all the data is good

Simply untrue

No Graham, you need to think about net exports (ie. exports minus imports)

Jamba - according to you the demise of the euro was due a couple of years ago.

Fell free to find a post from me saying it would collapse in 2014 8)

Many many people will tell you its already dead, the Greek "bailout" was simply a delaying tactic to avoid a collapse of Spain and Italy. Quite a few articles appearing speaking of as a minimum an Italian exit from the euro (so they can control their own economy and devalue their currency to increase competitiveness). If LePenn wins I her to win a Referendum on exiting the euro. Deutsche Bank published a piece a while ago saying Germany may leave first to get away from all the indebted Southern European nations.