Forum menu
I( am still awaiting the list of tory policies they stopped!
T-J : Unlike yourself not all of us on this forum have the tenacity nor the will to sit behind a keyboard and argue a point to death but thanks to shackleton/cougar etc for pointing out the bloody obvious, not that it will make the slightest bit of difference.
And it is easy to see how Brexit is happening so easily.
A PM elected by 90000 people is doing what he wants unopposed and all you lot are doing is arguing about years old policies and decisions.
Wake the **** up and do something about current situation!
Wake the **** up and do something about current situation!
Any suggestions?
Give your support to commited Remain parties?
Give your support to commited Remain parties?
Or convince your party to become committed. Owen Jones is finally back on board. Who’s left, outside the bunker?
Give your support to commited Remain parties?
Did that ages ago, anything else?
Realistically, it has to be solved using the MPs we already have… contact them by all means available to you. Many do consider it part of their job to engage, and do.
contact them by all means available to you
Richard Benyon has stopped replying to me....
Anything else?
As above, there is nothing much we can do. It's in the hands of the Government and Parliament.
Even if there is a GE because Boris can't get a deal with EU and Parly bins no deal then we'll all have 1 vote and for only a minority of us that vote will have any influence in marginal seats. Then it would take a coalition of remain parties including Labour to win a majority for a 2nd ref
I think we all know this and that's why there is so much frustration and aggro on this and the other political threads
Anything else?
I have given up on “my” MP… they ignore emails and block on Facebook (and left Twitter)… and contacted many others who were still keeping too quiet, or went for the “damaging but democratically unavoidable” line, in all parties… some have over the last few years become more vocal about what needs to happen (not my doing of course, but due to moving events and the views shared with them by many many others).
Good thread from Chris hope of the telegraph about what Cummings might be plotting over the summer
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1156594392939073536?s=19
Meanwhile the by-election tomorrow will be interesting for the Tories & lib Dems (and labour)
Johnson's not been keen to plug the dodgy Tory candidate
https://twitter.com/elashton/status/1156544746631979008?s=19
TJ,
Same old purity tests, same old populism.
You shouldn't set up and sloganise purity tests no-one can pass and then tie yourself in knots defending them.
Compromise is a good thing in politics for anyone over 12.
The only branch of politics that demands "purity" is nationalism/populism, and you wouldn't want to see that in Scottish politics would you?
Also applies to brexit, where apparently now Dominic Cummings is not enough of a leaver for Farage. LINK
We're all doomed.
Nonsense eat the pudding.
WTF is a "purity test"
Holyrood is set up to be a consensual and co operative parliament as a result of its PR electoral system
only once since the formation has there been a majority government. the rest of the time its been minority governments or coalitions - as intended. Now when the SNP first took control with a minority administration both labour and lib dems refused to have anything to do with anything the SNP proposed automatically voting against them. IN order to get any votes passed then the SNP had to work with the tories, the greens, scottish socialist etc. so they did - thats pragmatic compromise. Labour sewed the seeds of its downfall in scotland at this time by its total no cooperation and the Bain principle. The minor parties thus gained a fair amount of power ( although the Greens rather blew their chance)
There was never any formal coalition SNP / tory
HGowever on a vote by vote basis with a bit of " you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" the tories supported SNP policies they had little trouble with in return for a bit of SNP support for policies the SNP had little trouble with. same with greens and scottish socialist. Out of thei the SNP government lasted the full term, acheived most of its aims and the greens, scottish socialist and tories got a few things thru. Labout put themselves in the wilderness
This is how Holyrood is supposed to work even tho labour did their best to wreck it.
Nopw lets compare this to the Tory / lib dem coalition at westminster
By going into formal coalition the lib dems gave away all their power especially once Clegg decided they would support the tories for the whole 5 years. This meant the lib dems voting for tory policies they must have known were wrong. The tories soon realised that the lib dems were never going to vote them down on any issue thus then simply ran roughshod over them treating them as lobby fodder.
I am not one of those that think the lib dems should have tried coalition with labour - it wouldn't have worked)
If the lib dems had done a supply and confidence deal they would have retained a lot more actual power as they would have been free to vote down tory policies like selling off the post office. But by going into coalition and by making it clear they would not vote the tories down on any issue they lost all this power.
Do you really think the lib dems would have voted for some of these nasty tory policies if they had had a free vote - of course not.
Thats the differnce. In scotland there never was any formal agreement and stuff was done on a vote by vote basis with the minority parties holding a lot of power. In Westminster the lib dems simply became lobby fodder and lost all power
WTF are you on about? I haven't vote labour for a decade due to their antics as above and am no supporter of Corbyn. I simply hate the sorts of lies that are told about him and like a bit of truth and clarity
If that's the case TJ, I don't know why the hell you defend him - to us lefties down south he's a liability. To you guys maybe not. You have your SNP and Greens who can actually gain seats - we have what again? We have a reason to be pissed with him - whilst you don't have a horse in the race. At the end of the day, you know and have the privilege to piss off from the union and let England wallow in crass stupidity. Scotland is superior, we get it - I might even end up there as a bloody Brexit refugee.
If we were North of the border some of us here might see the issue in much the same way as you, but we don't.
You should get this TJ.
TJ,
Its pretty clear what a "purity test" is in the context we're discussing
(google ideological or political purity test if unsure).
Its the same pish that keeps popping up from the SNP about how labour "shared a platform with the tories" against independence and can NEVER be forgiven, but ignores the fact that Nichola has been on the same anti-brexit platform as a variety of tories since with no comment.
Its a simple way to short circuit the "thinking" part of politics and jump straight to tribalism and populism, and whatever follows.
Its lazy thinking and lazy politics, and can have unfortunate divisive and populist results.
Do I agree with everything the lib dems did in power with the tories, hell no.
Do I think that a grown up politics involves compromise, hell yes.
(For clarity i DO think that Corbyn is a terrorist supporting, anti semitic, ineffectual prick, and that IS based on who he has hung around with in the past. I don't like purity tests but I do have some standards)
Question: If Torys loose Brecon and Radnorshire to the Lib dems, so their majority is one; what happens if two tories defect? Do they just stick as a minority govt or is there a mechanism where the other parties could club together to say they have a majority coalition without a VONC?
so their majority is one; what happens if
two toriesone tory defects?
FTFY. 🙂
The government remains until there are two successful VONC in the House of Commons over a two week period. At that point any party/coalition that thinks they can form a government can approach the Queen and request the opportunity.
Realistically, though, VONC would require the votes of quite a few Tory MPs, there would be no viable coalition at that point, and so a general election would be called.
And we’d leave with No Deal, and no government in place to deal with it, while an election campaign was under way, unless the outgoing PM broke his word and asked for an extension from the EU.
See now why Corbyn HAD to act (but didn’t) when the other parties (and some resigning Conservative monsters) tried to?
Johnson has Parliament snookered now, unless they can work across parties to form a new government that can ask for the extension before calling an election. And then, everyone but Johnson and the rest of his Conservative Brexit Party can be painted as undemocratic for stopping us leaving… Johnson gets a landslide… we leave the EU in May with No Deal. I think he’s hoping for this anyway, as he knows we need more time to prepare, and it gives him his mandate and five years minimum as PM.
Presumably as we have fixed term parliaments a vote would be needed to dissolve parliament early, assuming that is amendable then it could be enforced that an extension is requested and because it is a primary piece of legislation it would be enforced.
unless the vonc overrides that
Why not give it to the NHS instead?
Because it will be privatised next year.
Question: If Torys loose Brecon and Radnorshire to the Lib dems, so their majority is one; what happens if two tories defect? Do they just stick as a minority govt or is there a mechanism where the other parties could club together to say they have a majority coalition without a VONC?
No Boris will get some Irish party to join up, Promising them free reign and a united Ireland, God awful country.... take it ,can hear him now
To be honest if Boris hopefully demolishes the backstop at least the yanks wont want a trade agreement , and there's only one set of idiots id rather see the back of than the Tories and that's warmongering money grabbing American politicians.
Presumably
Unless after 2 VONC a replacement government can not be formed, then we have an election without it being voted for, and no government to be “enforced” to do anything first. It would all be a huge gamble that many MPs will back away from. The time to move to stop Johnson and No Deal has just passed… and the “opposition” let it pass, and their leader held a little rally to celebrate call for the government to stand down and hold an election instead.
I still think Johnson will challenge Parliament to call an election (needs 70% vote IIRC) after it uses all measures to seek to stop No Deal. What do the other parties do then? If they agree, there is no government to seek an extension and we leave with No Deal while an election is taking place, if they say no, they will be painted as “frit” (and some have been calling for that election and little else for years now).
Worth a read…
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17804904.nicola-sturgeon-right-believe-boris-wants-no-deal-brexit/
I’d copy and paste some extracts, but I think it’s all worth reading, and it all threads together in a way that taking a section out of context might weaken.
The time to move to stop Johnson and No Deal has just passed… and the “opposition” let it pass
I must have missed that. When did labour have the ability to stop Johnson being elected or prevent no deal? The only way labour could have done either would have been to vote May's deal through parliament, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean?
This is just brilliant - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49165836
Fact check on Raab's 'no-deal' comments. Sadly wont make any difference - fake news etc..
Eat the pudding - none of what y9u describe is my position nor have I ever said it. I even said I believed the lib dems should have co operated with the tories - just that going into coalition was a massive blunder and caused huge damage to the country. Until they acknowledge this ( and most lib dem activists do) then they remain beyond the pale for me.
My turning away from Scottish labour was not to do with sharing a platform with the tories - tho that was also a massive error in judgement. Its their behavior in Holyrood since losing power and the appalling behavior of Murphy during the independence vote campaign that means I no longer support scottish labour. again until they reset and acknowledge the wrong then I will not support them
dazh
Subscriber
The time to move to stop Johnson and No Deal has just passed… and the “opposition” let it passI must have missed that. When did labour have the ability to stop Johnson being elected or prevent no deal? The only way labour could have done either would have been to vote May’s deal through parliament, but I’m pretty sure that’s not what you mean?
Labour made the attempt several weeks ago, they got the cross party support that was needed but 18 labour mps did not support them so it fell
As for a VONC - if labour thought they would win they would have gone for it.
Labour made the attempt several weeks ago, they got the cross party support that was needed but 18 labour mps did not support them so it fell
Yes I remember now. I also seem to remember that Corbyn whipped his MPs to support the vote to prevent no deal? Or is that wrong?
TJ my comment wasn't all about "things you said" it was about the danger of purity tests in politics, and the resultant tribalism and populism.
I think that compromise will make better politics than dictatorship, and going on and on about the equivalent of "what your sandra did to our billy in high school" in the place where we are now is just political masturbation.
At the moment I'd vote Sinn Fein if I thought it would stop brexit (and not make things worse), and they've done worse things to my family than make the odd stupid compromise and not offer a fullsome apology.
Or is that wrong?
That was before a Johnson government was imminent.
Since then, government ministers resigned… one specifically asked the Speaker for a vote in the house to test if Johnson and his No Deal policy had the confidence of the house. Other party leaders also called for such a vote. The Speaker said the he would only allow such a vote if the request came from the Leader Of The Opposition. He declined, and, once the deadline had passed, held a little rally to call for… well, what he had avoided Parliament voting on.
He declined
Hang on wasn't everyone ridiculing Corbyn a few months ago for calling a 'pointless' VONC which he couldn't win? I distinctly remember at least one Life of Brian picture on the subject 🙂
unless the outgoing PM broke his word and asked for an extension from the EU.
Strictly speaking, Whitehall runs the country during an election campaign following the dissolution of Parliament, so it is not entirely encumbent on Boris to ask for an extension.
But we are now entirely dependent on the goodwill of the EU 27 in terms of getting one. And I feel they may have just had enough of our screwing about.
The VONC would require significant support from the Hammonds, Alan Duncans and David Gaukes of the Tory party to offset those members of the PLP who would abstain or vote against due to Brexit ideology, and to compensate for 'missing' MPs who either will not, or cannot, attend, eg Sinn Fein.
I quite agree eat the pudding - thats why I like the holyrood setup as it forces co operation and concensus ( unless you are labour when you just sit in the corner and sulk)
The differnce between the SNP / tory cooperation and the tory / lib dem coalition tho is that in holyrood the tories maximized their power, in westminster the lib dems gave it all away
Actually surely the best resolution for all sides is that as sinn fein feel so strongly they should turn up for a few weeks to nail the government make sure no deal cannot happen then they can do what they like again
Subscriber
Labour made the attempt several weeks ago, they got the cross party support that was needed but 18 labour mps did not support them so it fell
Yes I remember now. I also seem to remember that Corbyn whipped his MPs to support the vote to prevent no deal? Or is that
wrong?
No you are right. 18 labour mps not supporting the labour motion meant it failed despite 8 tories voting with labour
The other thing eat the pudding is I like a politician who is able to say - " we got it wrong" or " I made a mistake" Swinson is unable to do this this is why for me the lib dems remain unvotable
grahamt1980
Subscriber
Actually surely the best resolution for all sides is that as sinn fein feel so strongly they should turn up for a few weeks to nail the government make sure no deal cannot happen then they can do what they like again
Could you imagine how the DUPs heads would all explode !
Actually surely the best resolution for all sides is that as sinn fein feel so strongly they should turn up for a few weeks to nail the government
That would be absolutely hilarious!
If I were them I'd do it just for the shits and gigs.. "hi guys! Remember us?!"
The other thing eat the pudding is I like a politician who is able to say – ” we got it wrong” or ” I made a mistake” Swinson is unable to do this this is why for me the lib dems remain unvotable
Whilst I don't disagree with the first part of that, going "yeah, sorry, we screwed up" is hardly a common event amongst politicians is it? Seems somewhat bizarre to single out one particular person / party for that.
Somewhat ironically, the only MP I can remember doing that in recent years in Nick Clegg.
Hang on wasn’t everyone ridiculing Corbyn a few months ago for calling a ‘pointless’ VONC which he couldn’t win?
I don’t remember, but his timing can be misguided twice. When you have Tory ministers resigning to call a vote, and it is the last chance to stop a Johnson No Deal government from taking over, and a summer recess is upon us meaning no more votes will be possible before it is too late to have a general election before a No Deal Brexit… that might not have been a open goal, but it sure looked like the best chance so far, and probably the last good one… if you want to both stop No Deal Brexit and change the government that is. I suspect he only wants the second though, don’t you?
If nothing else, Labour rebels voting in a Johnson No Deal government would have focused minds on the choices our current MPs have before them. Perhaps that was what Corbyn was avoiding.
A tory openly considering defecting to the Liberal Democrats
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-mp-defection-lib-dems-brexit-boris-johnson-majority-phillip-lee-a9030576.html
Francoise does it again.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/01/mark-francois-tory-rebels-vow-to-block-brexit-deal-even-without-backstop
Should we feign surprise?
Give ‘em any ground, and they just want more. They want the damage, so why would they accept any agreement that seeks to reduce it?