Forum menu
Labour policy is unequivocally for a second referendum in all circumstances with leave and remain options
So why are
longtime allies and leftist stalwarts John McDonnell and Diane Abbott as well as “soft left” members such as Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry, pro-Corbyn Scottish and Welsh Labour leaderships, and the London mayoralty; key unions, such as Unison and the GMB; and Labour members, over half of whom didn’t vote for their own party in the European elections according to YouGov,
still calling for a straight Remain option on any Labour backed referendum? They're all wrong and missed the memo that you alone received? Seriously? I asked you over a week ago for a link to any statement assuring of a Remain option on a ballot. I'm still waiting.
BBC website 7th July
Not that small insignificant part of the "political commentary", just across the rest of it… stop being "utterly ridiculous".
I’m still waiting.
He's replied. I think that's all you'll get.
From the very article Binners quotes I think
Sadly, I searched the article posted by Binners, and those words were not in there. Do you have a link TJ? I'd be interested to read the words in context, and to know who they are from, and if they think it applies to the next parliament and would include a option to Remain an EU member.
i was about to post something directed to TJ, but thought I'd quickly look it up. I found some stuff that kind of supports his position. And then a lot that doesn't! These are a few of the stories I've dug up. I put them in chronological order:
<br><br>
March 2019 - Labour imposes a whip to support a vote on a 2nd referendum
...now if you stop here, you can perhaps argue that Labour has a coherent position. But...
<br><br>
March 2019 - ...but several shadow ministers resign in protest, and about 45 Labour MPs rebel
April 2019 - Labour's EU election position settled as "if we can’t get the necessary changes to the government’s deal, or a general election, to back the option of a public vote”
May 2019 - Labour Deputy Leader: "the party cannot go into a general election without a clear position on a second referendum and a special conference may be needed to decide a Brexit policy"
June 2019 - "Labour Shadow Minister for International Trade denies second referendum is official Brexit policy"
July 2019 - "Labour should 'get on with' changing its Brexit policy to support a second referendum, the shadow chancellor has told the BBC."
Today - Labour's current manifesto: "Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first."
You just can't argue that this is a clear or coherent position. IMO Corbyn himself is tentatively in favour of a 2nd ref, but his party are fighting like cats and dogs and he can't persuade them that it's a good idea. And I don't think he'll be able to.
TJ, Labour's position is so clear cut that even those taking an active interest are struggling to make sense of it, or at least the writing here suggests that there are at least two interpretations that people subscribe to. Let's say you're correct, just for argument's sake, do you think the average man or woman in the street will be be clear on their position?
I think we can see the net effect on their performance in recent elections and polling...
The argument now is should labour back remain or allow an open vote
Where has Corbyn said Labour would do either? Everything points to Labour (with Corbyn as leader) pushing for a Brexit option on a 2nd referendum. Hence why senior people in his party are trying to get clarity (and no doubt push him into one of the choices you've given if they can).
I think the only thing that is clear is that Jeremy and his Union/Momentum chums don't want to deal with Brexit.
This is quite understandable IMO, as EU membership would probably prevent re-nationalisation of large swathes of British industry. However, I feel Jeremy's strategy of not coming out with a firm commitment of either Leave or Remain is backfiring spectacularly.
Which begs the question, how does Jeremy/Momentum/Unions persuade the lost voters to return? Or are Labour now utterly doomed for a decade or more?
IMO Corbyn himself is tentatively in favour of a 2nd ref, but his party are fighting like cats and dogs and he can’t persuade them that it’s a good idea. And I don’t think he’ll be able to.
Agree. The party is almost irreparably split, and he has the impossible task of trying to find consensus to hold it together. And without wanting to attract more monty python pics, we also need to consider the impact of the utilisation of the brexit issue by Corbyn's enemies to unseat him rather than working to find a way through. I'll admit they've played a blinder, and looks like they may be successful. It won't happen before a new election though, so the end result of the 4 year battle for control of the labour party will be continued Tory govt, probably driving a no-deal brexit.
This is quite understandable IMO, as EU membership would probably prevent re-nationalisation of large swathes of British industry.
This was one of the reasons the Lexiteers around Corbyn gave for their inherent dislike of the EU. However, you won't have heard anyone say it for a while as it was quickly debunked as being complete and utter bollocks
Agree. The party is almost irreparably split
It really isn't. The hardcore Lexiteers in the party are a tiny minority, numbering maybe 26 MPs. Unfortunately, one of them is presently occasionally masquerading as the party leader, when not hiding in his allotment shed
And without wanting to attract more monty python pics, we also need to consider the impact of the utilisation of the brexit issue by Corbyn’s enemies to unseat him rather than working to find a way through.
What about Corbyn's allies in the shadow cabinet calling for a Brexit policy that the party can get behind? Those that think the frustration with the leadership of the party as regards Brexit is all about "enemies of Corbyn" need to wake up.
And when I asked what this "way through" or "compromise position" looks like, you stayed silent. If you think Labour can offer a Brexit that will be appealing to more than a small section of the voting public… then let's hear it… and then we can compare it to the Labour whipping of the past three years.
Damn, he drew me in… better stop now before we disappear down the same pointless rabbit hole…
Those that think the frustration with the leadership of the party is all about “enemies of Corbyn” need to wake up.
I didn't say that. But you can't deny that the same people who tried to get rid of Corbyn in 2016 (Angela Eagle was on Sky News this morning coincidentally) are using brexit to get to him how. I don't blame them for it, it makes sense if you're in that camp. But lets not pretend their motivations are pure. Those who want to remain are being f**** over by these people as much as everyone else because it will result in a no deal Boris driven brexit. It's not just the tories who put their own ambition and interests above those of the country.
But you can’t deny that the same people who tried to get rid of Corbyn in 2016 (Angela Eagle was on Sky News this morning coincidentally) are using brexit to get to him how.
Maybe, and I admit I'm going out on a limb here.... they just now all want to get shut of him now because the recent local and EU election results, and subsequent polling, have shown that with the electorate he's about as popular as a fart in a spacesuit, and the likelihood of him delivering a Labour government are about the same as the likelihood of me giving birth to triplets.
Just a thought....
So, Dazh, what policy should the Labour Party have, as regards Brexit, in your opinion? And has/is/will Corbyn stood/standing/stand in the way of the party adopting it?
Labour policy is unequivocally for a second referendum in all circumstances with leave and remain options
Gotta stop you there, TJ. I've not been following Shrodinger's Labour too closely because whilst you and Binners have spent the last hundred pages arguing that two diametrically opposite and mutually exclusive things are perfectly clear, to my mind Labour is an irrelevant distraction. However, I do know that Corbyn did not mention a referendum "with leave and remain options," rather that any referendum would have options for leave and remain voters. That's a subtle but potentially very very important difference.
The quotes I have given are perfectly clear. Labour policy is 100% second referendum on any deal. Multiple quotes from multiple sources stating this.
The question has moved on to "should labour back remain"
Why you guys keep inventing falshoods I do not know.
It’s fake news TJ! Whipped up by a kabal plotting against our one true leader. Sad.
And when I asked what this “way through” or “compromise position” looks like, you stayed silent.
?
I think I've been pretty open on here that I would accept a Norway style arrangement if it resolves the issue in the interests of moving on and avoiding further polarisation. Wasn't aware I had to repeat that again.
It's an interesting exercise in whataboutery though to wonder what different a non-Corbynite leadership would have done in the various brexit votes. Not a lot I reckon. In fact given their past record in agreeing with moderate tories I reckon there's a better than evens chance they would have voted May's deal through.
Kelvin
Earlier this year, in response to fears it was losing support to pro-remain parties such as the Liberal Democrats, Labour shifted its Brexit stance and agreed that any Brexit deal passed by parliament should be put to the people in a second referendum. But the party has not committed to backing remain if such a referendum were to take place. McDonnell said last month he was arguing the case for Labour to explicitly back remain.
Scotroutes - I gave the link several times.
with that - I am back out.
The quotes I have given are perfectly clear. Labour policy is 100% second referendum on any deal. Multiple quotes from multiple sources stating this.
The question has moved on to “should labour back remain”
You've just dodged the question. Again.
Scotroutes – I gave the link several times.
No. You didn't. Give us a link to a statement from Corbyn/the leadership that any Labour backed referendum will have Remain as an option.
with that – I am back out.
Aye, because you have nothing - NOTHING - to back up your assertion.
It's ironic that this thread should have drifted into the subject of second languages when there are obviously some people on here who don't even understand their native English.
I would accept a Norway style
Labour whipped against that. Years ago. So given that, what should Labour policy be now? And is Corbyn resisting its adoption?
with that – I am back out.
Please come back when it is Labour Policy that a Labour government would hold a referendum including an option to remain in the EU. I can see it happening, eventually, probably too late, possibly requiring a change of leader, and at that point many of us can start voting Labour again… those of us that want to, unlike you.
Another fair assessment of Labour policy, such as it is, under Corbyn by Matthew d"Ancona in todays Guardian
Labour could dominate the centre ground and win. But it doesn’t seem to want to
On Brexit, we cruise towards a no-deal departure on 31 October. In such desperate circumstances, you do not have to be a remainer to conclude that the public should be consulted again in a fresh referendum. Such an offer, made unambiguously and without qualification by Labour, would electrify the political landscape. Like all such decisions, it would bear an element of risk. But that is the essence of statesmanship.
Whether he likes it or not, this is the great opportunity of Corbyn’s leadership: one he did not seek, but with which he is confronted nonetheless. The goal is two miles wide. The goalkeeper lies unconscious on the pitch. The ball is two inches away from the line. And – thus far – Corbyn’s instinct has been to nudge the ball feebly to the left, promising only to consult his members and the unions on the extent to which goal-scoring is consistent with authentic socialism.
what should Labour policy be now?
I've also said in many previous posts that if a Norway style compromise wasn't possible then labour should push for a second referendurum, which they are now doing. I've also said that I've always supported McDonnell's view and still do, so in addition to their existing commitment to a second referendum they should campaign to remain. The primary focus above all should of course be preventing a no deal brexit lead by Boris but that aim seems to have been conceded in favour of a self-defeating culture war.
It's pretty irrelevant though because it's now blindingly obvious that anything labour do will not be enough because the remain camp is now more obsessed with Corbyn and the labour leadership than brexit itself, hence my comments above.
the remain camp is now more obsessed with Corbyn and the labour leadership than brexit itself
Who are the "remain camp", and does it include McDonnell? Abbot? Thornberry? Starmer?
I think you know full well who they are and no it doesn't include McDonnell.
[ Hoey is standing down at the next election. ]
I think you know full well who they are and no it doesn’t include McDonnell.
Does the "remain camp" include all the Labour members who voted for Corbyn to be leader, twice, but think that Labour should, with no further delay, ifs or buts, commit to holding a referendum with a Remain option if Labour get into government, and would themselves campaign to remain in that referendum?
Another fair assessment of Labour policy, such as it is, under Corbyn by Matthew d”Ancona in todays Guardian
Damn thats a surprise. A rightwinger arguing the answer is for Labour to become right wing giving the choice of the right or hard right.
Labour shifted its Brexit stance and agreed that any Brexit deal passed by parliament should be put to the people in a second referendum
But everything so far suggests parliament can't agree a Brexit stance so what actually triggers Labour to call for a second referendum? As it stands the two most likely options are:
1). No deal Brexit on October 31st
2). BoJo government collapses and a GE is triggered
What's this mythical 3rd option of a Brexit deal? The only deal available before 31st October is May's deal but BoJo and Corbyn are both against that.
Corbyn obviously wants option 2 above but even if he wins and has a significant parliamentary majority as PM that still means renegotiating Brexit, that's going to take at least a year and requires the EU not only offer another extension but remove the current clause precluding any renegotiation within the extension period. So does that just leave the option of cancelling A50 and starting it again? I'd rather just vote for a straight Remain party than a party that would still support Brexit and just draw out the whole mess for potentially years more.
arguing the answer is for Labour to become right wing
How would backing a referendum "unambiguously, and without qualification" be a shift to the right?
Yeah citing a D'Ancona article really isn't doing yourself any favours Binners. He can take his opinion and **** off back to the Tory party.
I do sometimes wonder what the point of all the arguing in this thread is, as it's all speculative. Corbyn could come out and explicitly say that Labour will aim for a referendum with Remain as an explicit choice in any circumstance - hell, they could come out as full "Revoke A50" - and it wouldn't matter, because Boris is not going to offer a referendum and there isn't going to be a GE before October 31st. It's all entirely academic, and we're busy shouting at each other and furthering divides on the left of the political spectrum.
[ Granted: if a GE is called, Labour need to sort out their position sharpish. That's a big if and something to consider if/when it happens IMO. ]
EDIT:
I’d rather just vote for a straight Remain party than a party that would still support Brexit and just draw out the whole mess for potentially years more.
Strongly agree. If we somehow get a GE in (say) early October, I'd be more likely to vote for "Revoke and remain" over "Referendum".
That’s a big if and something to consider if/when it happens IMO.
If you wait for a GE to be announced by Boris, before beginning the campaign for it, then you are a political lightweight who shouldn't be allowed to lead your party. He will call it at the last moment, and only once the fighting funds are ready, and/or an arrangement has been arrived at with Farage and his personal political vehicle.
And besides, it is Labour policy to try and get an early general election… having your key policies ready before a VONC is even called, never mind won, shouldn't be too much to ask.
He can take his opinion and * off back to the Tory party.
Stealing supporters and voters from the Tory Party (and LibDems, SNP, Greens & Brexit Party) should be the aim of the Labour Party… setting out a better path for the UK than those other parties, and taking the voting population with you, should be the aim. Telling everyone to * off back to old tribal homes is part of the current problem.
On this specific issue, it's not just any GE at any time. It's a GE called within the next 3 months, and a GE takes ~2 months to run.
Agree that Labour should be planning how they'd respond to whoever is PM calling a GE, and Brexit would be a key part of that before October. But after October it's a non-issue (assuming Boris actually follows through with his plan).
Regardless of that, the point is that we're arguing over speculative futures, rather than discussing the actual current position of "Tories are Brexiting, how would a remain-voter actually stop this". Labour coming out in favour of 100% guaranteed referendum vs a referendum only on the current Tory deal doesn't materially affect the situation right now.
How would backing a referendum “unambiguously, and without qualification” be a shift to the right?
Read the full article.
Does the “remain camp” include all the Labour members who voted for Corbyn to be leader,
Well anecdotally, and certainly on here, it's very illustrative that most fellow remainers I speak with only ever want to talk about Corbyn and the labour party than Boris and his no deal ambitions. Feel free though to continue with this line of pedantry. No doubt when no deal happens you'll all be blaming Corbyn for distracting you from the real enemy.
and it wouldn’t matter, because Boris is not going to offer a referendum and there isn’t going to be a GE before October 31st.
You're forgetting about the secret 'Stop Brexit' button Corbyn has in his bunker that he's annoyingly refusing to use. Maybe he's confusing it with the nuclear button?
Telling everyone to **** off back to old tribal homes is part of the current problem.
D’Ancona is still a hardline tory. Look at his primary employment for gods sake. This isnt someone who has switched but just someone who rather than take on the lunatics in his own party wants to turn Labour into a clone.
To appeal to him would be to abandon anyone even centre right.
Read the full article.
His list of back benchers (and a few front benchers) that he would like to see in government looks good to me. So much talent being wasted…
wants to turn Labour into a clone
Does that include Brexit policy? Would unambiguously, and without qualification, supporting a referendum make Labour a clone of the Tories?
Brexit should be a chance to take voters from the Conservative party.
You’re forgetting about the secret ‘Stop Brexit’ button Corbyn has in his bunker that he’s annoyingly refusing to use.
At the last set of elections, we were told that the only way to stop Brexit was to get a Labour government in place. The plan is still for Labour to try and get into power, yes? What they would do in government is still a vital issue then.
D’Ancona is still a hardline tory.
I think you may want to have a closer look at the present Tory party if you think someone like Matthew d"Ancona represents its 'hardline'.
I find his weekly Guardian articles a pretty balanced impartial read. Its not like he's been shy of wading into the mess that is the present Tory party. And he's socially liberal and very anti-brexit.
Here you go. From the last few weeks columns:
Hard Brexit is the drug the Tories need to wean themselves off
Labour could dominate the centre ground and win. But it doesn’t seem to want to
Can't say as I blame him TBH. Anyone with more sense than ambition* would want to keep well away from power at the moment. Corbyn could swoop in at the 11th hour, pull us back from the brink of mass Seppuku and wind up being the greatest PM in living history, and the gutter press would be dining out on gammon and kippers on the back of it for the next two decades. Brexit will be Corbyn's tuition fees / Iraq war.
(* - which is why Boris is a shoe-in.)
No doubt when no deal happens you’ll all be blaming Corbyn for distracting you from the real enemy.
Corbyn will be blamed because there is supposed to be an effective opposition party. There won't be until Corbyn, Milne, and the rest of the cronies are disposed of.
The only chance now is enough Tory MPs such as David Gauke walking away from Boris and no deal to remove his Parliamentary majority and trigger VONC and a general election.
Labour policy needs to be utterly unambigious, and judging by the number of reasonably educated folk on here still arguing over the number of angels you can fit on the head of a pin, it isn't. And if it's ambiguous for us, it will be bewildering for the electorate. Even as it stands, an electoral deal between Boris and Farage is a distinct possibility to finally remove all hope.
Who remembers the halcyon days when the grown-ups were going to sort it all out before we fell off the cliff? 🙂
well at least Kate Hoey is going, not soon enough, unfortunately
how on earth she hasnt been booted out & deselected already is beyond me
Here you go. From the last few weeks columns:
Note how there is only really one thing he is whinging about with regards to the rather extreme tory policies. Not all the other batshit proposals from the tories but just one.
He is hardline tory he just isnt a brexiteer variant.
well at least Kate Hoey is going, not soon enough, unfortunately
But sadly for her largely remain constituency she will probably leave then a present they don't want before she goes.
Finally, clarity *
Labour is poised to declare it will campaign for remain in a second referendum on any deal put to parliament by a Conservative prime minister, after trade union bosses including Unite’s Len McCluskey backed the change of policy.
Barring any major intervention, the surprise consensus among trade unions including Unite, GMB and Unison is likely to force any remaining sceptics to agree the new position when the shadow cabinet meets on Tuesday.
Union bosses met on Monday to agree the common position that Labour should explicitly declare that while it is the opposition it will campaign for a second referendum and for remaining in the EU.
However, the unions also agreed Labour should seek to deliver a Brexit deal if the party won an election before the UK left the EU.
* possibly
Basically in, and out, at the same time.
**** Labour.